Before Frozen Fatigue sets in...

[rsoxguy]

Mickey Mouse. They really went a little overboard on that for a while.

 

[Glasgow]

I'm sorry but if a company is making money they are going to continue down that path, that's all there is to it. Where there is demand there is supply, and if you were an exec you'd be doing exactly the same thing.

You wouldn't be saying "but boss, it cheapens the overall experience!". Uh, no. Things exist for a reason, and as long as there is overwhelming demand from the public there will be supply in the parks. It's easy to complain but fad or not, it's here to stay ..

 

[lebeau]

Well yeah you are going off on me but that is OK. Who said boys were not suppose to go? My question is if they don't embrace the Prince role in Princess Films list the equivilent choices for boys where they don't have to play the side kick in a princess movie. List the shows that are not related to princesses and geared toward boys. List the attractions built in the New Fantasyland that are not Princess themed? Where are the Pirate fireworks? Cars fireworks?

But then I'll turn it, how many character meals are there for movies like Cars or Toy Story, Pirates. Is it because the boys prefer to go to a Princess meal or is it because there are very few buffets for boys. The Turtles were wildly popular when my DS was small, was there a character meal for them? I saw the young boys in my area come to my door trick or treating. They were not dressed as characters from Princess Movies.

If a boy wanted to ride an attraction geared towards boys and not princess films in the New Fantasyland which would you pick? Are the boys picking Mermaid or is it because Snow White and Little Mermaid Princess were all that were built. I didn't have any Dwarf boys or Gastons showing up at my door for trick or treating.

Enter the Castle what do you find? Princess meal and Bibbidi Bobbidi Boutique. Yeah there will be boys in the castle however if half was pirate themed and half was princess themed where do you think most grade school boys would pick? Norway another great example for a few decades. Why another princess meal there when it could have been imagineered to pirates or vikings easily?

Wouldn't Diamond Horseshoe in Frontierland be a wonderful place for Woody to have a character meal? Toy Story still sells and sequel but it won't happen because it isn't a princess line.

Toy, Lion King are gender neutral films and are not face characters. When there is a meet and greet how often is Andy a male face character ever available in a meet and greet?

You list out all the Princess shows, exactly my point. I miss the army men in the parade at DHS. Default attendance, no choices for families of boys but to go to the Princess Shows. Now the castle lighting is converted to Princess, it is rumored the Christmas Parade will go Princess. Wishes go Princess, Norway going from Vikings and Trolls to Princess. I believe it is more than Frozen Fatigue it is Princess Fatigue. Parents with boys really need to spend some time at Uni just to knock the visions of sugar plums dancing in their heads. Uni developed the parks with Minions and Harry that have wide appeal to boys and girls, men and women. Uni Orlando onto something Disney can't grasp.

Obviously, we've got very different perspectives. I have two daughters. So that's going to color our perceptions. I don't want to get too far astray of the thread's topic ("Frozen fatigue") but I don want to quickly address some of your arguments:

1. You seem very focused on NFL. It's a relatively small part of the overall property. Part of the intent of that project was to address the fact that princess fans were being underserved. Pre-NFL, there was a huge, unmet demand for more princess stuff. Even now, I don't think Disney is meeting the demand for princesses. But even if you disagree, limiting your argument to NFL is like me saying there's not enough for girls to do in Frontierland. You're creating a false constraint here. Overall, the property still skews more heavily towards traditional male fantasies.

2. Even within NFL, I would hardly say it is exclusively girly. Outside of the Princess Fantasy Faire, very little of NFL is gender specific. Does the Little Mermaid ride have any more gender specificity than Peter Pan's Flight? I would say not. The Seven Dwarfs Mine Train seems embarrassed by its princess and hides her in a cottage where she can barely be seen while heavily focusing on the Dwarfs. That's hardly excluding the boys. Enchanted Tales with Belle is more likely to appeal to little princesses. But anyone can appreciate the special effects. And little boys enjoy playing the roles of Chip and the Beast. There's nothing remotely girly about Gaston's or Circusland. And I really don't think the Be Our Guest Restaurant is in any way gender-specific. So even within your false constraint, I believe your argument comes up short.

3. Bibbity Boppity Boutique and Cinderella's Royal Table are two very expensive experiences which for years were part of a very short list of princess experiences. If you took a girl to Disney World, you were going to have to pay extra to get the girly experiences. Quite a bit extra. Of course they now have the pirate makeovers which are quite logically located in Adventureland. Not sure how it would have made sense to include them in the castle. It is Cinderella's castle. Making it princessy makes sense, no? I can agree with you about Norway. But realistically, there was a demand for more princess dining. Short of building another castle-themed restaurant which we know Disney isn't going to do, it just made logistical sense. And obviously it has worked out. It's no longer a chore to get reservations at Cindy's table because Akershus is siphoning off some of the demand. And Akershus is getting business it wouldn't have gotten without the princesses. While it's less than ideal, it's a workable solution.

4. You're holding up Toy Story and Lion King as gender neutral. But they feature mostly male casts. In Toy Stroy, the female characters are Jessie and Bo Peep. Bo is Woody's love interest in the first film and then discarded for the sequels. Jessie isn't even introduced until Toy Story 2 and then becomes Buzz's love interest in the third movie. The most significant female character in the Lion King is Nala, Simba's love interest who is rarely ever featured in any way. I don't see how these movies are any more or less gender specific than say Tangled. Frozen didn't become the biggest animated movie of all time by appealing exclusively to girls either.

5. I think you are vastly over-stating the prevalence of the princesses. In any given park, we run out of princess themed activities relatively quickly. You're naming things that are rumored in your argument. I think that says a lot about the validity of your argument that you have to bring up things that haven't happened yet or aren't even confirmed. The parks as they exist right now still skew heavily towards traditional male interests. Princesses are still under-represented given the demand and their importance to the company's history.

Despite our different perspectives, I think we probably agree on quite a few things. I do agree that folks should check out Universal. But when it comes to the gender-appeal of Disney World, we'll probably just have to agree to disagree.

 

[DisneyPan]

I was a kid in the 80's, so my memories of WDW may not be accurate. However, I remember WDW focusing on their core characters aka Fab 5. There were birthday celebration parades for Mickey and Donald. Their stage shows were Magic Kingdom anniversaries where it was an 80's rock band with dancers. They had more "general" entertainment appropriate for each land. They didn't really capitalize much on IP. Now, I feel they need to justify entertainment by using their IP/franchises. Now, I'm not saying that's a bad thing - I think the Frozen Castle lighting show takes my breath away. Perhaps it's just time moving forward and this is the thing to do...

 

[Figments Friend]

Yes I agree. If I had seen it on the list in would have listed it alongside little mermaid. It was a great movie!!

I always find it interesting how looney tunes and Disney characters shared the same movie at one time!

Yes, it was a great novelty.
You can thank Mr. Spielberg for that, as he was the one who was able to entice and convince many studios to 'lend' Disney their star characters for the various cameos.
Bugs Bunny with Mickey Mouse ...Daffy Duck with Donald Duck....great moments.

 

[Figments Friend]

Did not know that. I always thought of it as an okay movie ! I know the original storyline very well. My family does a play.

Still, I see no evidence of it having a huge amount of popularity though. At least online.

It is indeed interesting how many popular trends over years past do not get much mention online, but trust me when i say *Oliver* was very popular.
I lived through that time and clearly remember the excitement when it was released.
The film was popular, but not 'mania inducing'. Still it was successful during it's time period.
It is a film closely associated with the 80s for most Disney fans who grew up during that time period.
Right up there with Don Bluth's 'An American Tail', 'The Land Before Time', and Disney's 'Who Framed Roger Rabbit'.
In the mid to late 1980s those were the most remembered animated films that were entirely new releases, and most who saw them during that time period have a soft spot for them.

*Oliver* plush was a hot collectible back then. Every child wanted their own pet 'Oliver', 'Dodger', or 'Tito'.
I have been amazed at all the people i have met who remember owning a stuffed kitten or a *Dodger* plush.
Lots of figures were made, promotional tie-ins with McDonalds ( plush X-mas ornaments and Happy Meal prizes/boxes ) as well as every kind of children's' product you could think of.
When the film was finally released on home video in the mid 90s it sold quite well.

It was popular, but when 'Mermaid' and the films to come were released the wave of popularity for these new films overtook *Oliver* in the public conciseness.
I think the 'mania' mentality hit a new peak with the release of 'Aladdin' in 1992.
That film definitely became a pop culture phenom at the time and it's force was felt across the board...from Parks to product, to ice shows and more.
*Oliver & Company* never reached that level of popularity, but it was no slouch in it's time period.

 

[Figments Friend]

What do you mean Space Jam didn't make an impact?!?! I remember it being huge and it launched the most 90's song ever! You have a turrible turrible opinion.

I remember the film being hyped up pre-release, as Warner Bros. was hoping to cash in big on the then-popular resurgence of the Looney Tunes characters ( thanks to the success of 'Roger Rabbit'. ) and Michael Jorden. It was a IP marriage made in heaven from a marketing standpoint, but such things are not always a guarantee that the movie is going to be good.

I recall that when it came out, it was slammed as a dud.
Most viewed it as a attempted knock-off to 'Who Framed Roger Rabbit'.
I don't recall it becoming a big sensation or popular culture phenomenon at all, the exception being the hit song you speak of winning a pair of Grammy awards.

Of course like any film, there are likely people who enjoyed 'Space Jam'.
Good on them, and i am glad they found it entertaining, but it's not something i found particularly riveting.

 

[Figments Friend]

I think the classic princesses were gender-neutral fairytales. They have been Barbiefied only recently. :'(

I fear that WDW is being subjected to marketeering, marketeers doing what they think counts for refined understanding of their market: segmentalising it. The MK is being turned into the girl park. DHS into the boys park. With Cars, Toy Story, Star Wars - their three male IP's, in order from young to old age segment. It is quite disheartening if you dislike yourself or kids being labelled and adressed in a gender-specific manner.

Agree.

I know many grown men that love the animated classic 'Sleeping Beauty' from a artistic standpoint.
Some guys would probably be shy in admitting that, since most people today class it in their minds as a 'girls Princess movie'.

A shame, as the film is a stunning feast for the eyes...and the title character only appears for about 13 minutes in the entire movie !

 

[Magenta Panther]

It is indeed interesting how many popular trends over years past do not get much mention online, but trust me when i say *Oliver* was very popular.
I lived through that time and clearly remember the excitement when it was released.
The film was popular, but not 'mania inducing'. Still it was successful during it's time period.
It is a film closely associated with the 80s for most Disney fans who grew up during that time period.
Right up there with Don Bluth's 'An American Tail', 'The Land Before Time', and Disney's 'Who Framed Roger Rabbit'.
In the mid to late 1980s those were the most remembered animated films that were entirely new releases, and most who saw them during that time period have a soft spot for them.

*Oliver* plush was a hot collectible back then. Every child wanted their own pet 'Oliver', 'Dodger', or 'Tito'.
I have been amazed at all the people i have met who remember owning a stuffed kitten or a *Dodger* plush.
Lots of figures were made, promotional tie-ins with McDonalds ( plush X-mas ornaments and Happy Meal prizes/boxes ) as well as every kind of children's' product you could think of.
When the film was finally released on home video in the mid 90s it sold quite well.

It was popular, but when 'Mermaid' and the films to come were released the wave of popularity for these new films overtook *Oliver* in the public conciseness.
I think the 'mania' mentality hit a new peak with the release of 'Aladdin' in 1992.
That film definitely became a pop culture phenom at the time and it's force was felt across the board...from Parks to product, to ice shows and more.
*Oliver & Company* never reached that level of popularity, but it was no slouch in it's time period.

Best part of that movie:



Georgette should have her own movie IMO.

 

[Ranch Dressing]

You really cant walk five feet without seeing a child dressed as Elsa in the parks. You do actually have to go the parks to see Frozens real impact.

 

[THEMEPARKPIONEER]

It so didn't fit!

You have to admit that the future world part with we just began to dream was pretty awesome and probably the best scene out of all the versions of illuminations

 

[raven]

Even though Disney shyed away from the evil storyline of The Snow Queen (which Frozen was losely based on), I find it funny that they kept one aspect of that story in their hidden agenda. The Snow Queen's goal was to freeze the hearts of children around the world so they could become her own.

Ironic that Disney is trying to give everyone frostbite?

 

[Figments Friend]

Best part of that movie:



Georgette should have her own movie IMO.

If 'Oliver & Company' had originally been released in the mid 1990s, i am sure we would have seen two or three 'direct to video' sequel/prequel movie releases.

Forget about 'The Return of Jafar' or 'Cinderella 2 - Dreams Come True'.
We would have seen 'Oliver & Company - Oliver's New Friends' or 'Oliver & Company - Georgette Reigns Supreme'

 

[Figments Friend]

You really cant walk five feet without seeing a child dressed as Elsa in the parks. You do actually have to go the parks to see Frozens real impact.

It's not just the Parks.

Today i was out at the local shopping mall to pick up some art supplies and in every single shop i went into, regardless of what they were selling, they had several shelves FULL of 'Frozen' product on display when you entered.
I felt like i kept going into a Disney Store...instead of a art shop, office supply place, Target, Hallmark, and a electronics shop.
Target was even playing songs from 'Frozen' in their X-mas decor isle.
Yeah....

Places i never expected to carry such things had them on plain display.
All of them no doubt hoping to try to cash in this holiday season.
It was quite a sight to see.

 

[ChrisFL]

Speaking of Roger Rabbit...I wonder, in this hyper-PC atmosphere if it would have been accepted or released without a lot of editing. I mean there is some very adult themes in that movie compared to almost all of today's Disney movies.