Rumor Avengers E-Ticket More Dead Than You'd Think

Disney Irish

Premium Member
It seems like you might be responding to an earlier part of the conversation rather than the post you quoted. If you re-read it, I mentioned that the MCU does acknowledge social issues. I don't think they deserve very much credit for that.
I was responding to what you wrote but maybe I didn’t articulate it in a way to make it clear.

If you don’t want to give them “credit” or don’t consider it very “notable” and just want to see them as popcorn flicks that is up to you. Still doesn’t change the fact that there are those that see it differently and do give them credit for bringing up those societal issues.
 

October82

Well-Known Member
I was responding to what you wrote but maybe I didn’t articulate it in a way to make it clear.

If you don’t want to give them “credit” or don’t consider it very “notable” and just want to see them as popcorn flicks that is up to you. Still doesn’t change the fact that there are those that see it differently.

Just as you're welcome to find as much or as little value in the media you consume.
 

Nirya

Well-Known Member
If you don't see the societal issues that are brought up in the MCU movies and consider them only "popcorn films", that is fine. That doesn't change the fact that they do have them, and are seen and discussed by many movie goers. The fact that several of us here have shown this proves this to be true.
I would equate the MCU's level of commitment to discussing these societal issues to that of a sorority girl posting something to her Instagram story about the latest crisis. It is "visibility", sure, but its surface level at best.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
I would equate the MCU's level of commitment to discussing these societal issues to that of a sorority girl posting something to her Instagram story about the latest crisis. It is "visibility", sure, but its surface level at best.
The MCU does acknowledge social issues. It rarely aims to do more.

I'm glad that is the way you see it. Doesn't mean others don't get more out of it.
 

Nirya

Well-Known Member
So here's the thing:

A superhero movie (we're talking about the MCU in particular but DC movies also fit in here) is never going to do anything beyond a surface-level mentioning of a big societal issue for a few reasons. For one, they are designed as mass media to be consumed by the largest audience possible. There's nothing wrong with that, by the way! But it also means these movies are going to try to remain as uncontroversial as possible, especially in a world where simply announcing the next logical story progression (say, for example, Falcon taking over as the new Captain America) is treated like the end times by a significant segment of the population.

But a larger problem is that these comics are set in a reality similar to our own, and thus know that they can't actually solve those issues. Actual comics have the same problem because let's face it: someone as smart as Reed Richards would be able to solve world hunger, but he's never going to because there always has to be conflict in the world. Much like they can never build a prison that can actually contain the bad guys, the superheroes are never going to solve societal issues because that would remove potential conflict from the story. Which means you always end up with a story where the various superheroes may be exposed to *insert social topic here*, but that's always going to be the extent of that interaction. Sometimes the hero may even say something like "we need to do something about this" to show they care, but 5 pages later they're back to punching bad guys.

Thus you end up with a conundrum. Do you give credit to a superhero movie for recognizing that we do, in fact, live in a society, or do you ask why they can't do more? It does not help that these movies, subjectively, do not do a good job with these issues. Black Panther, for example, gets hailed as a movie that tackles racism, but that racism is ingrained into the backstory and character of the main villain Killmonger. The racism he endured informs his character, but his solution to the problem is to become more violent because he's the bad guy. You end up with a messy situation where T'Challa is forced to try and thread the needle between "racism is bad" and "we can't overthrow the society that was racist to you". I don't think it necessarily does this successfully, but that failure is only caused because of poor choices to set the story up in this way.

I have other problems with this idea (including the fact that these stories are told from very privileged positions both in the writers room and on the screen) but I'll leave it at that for now.
 

October82

Well-Known Member
So here's the thing:

A superhero movie (we're talking about the MCU in particular but DC movies also fit in here) is never going to do anything beyond a surface-level mentioning of a big societal issue for a few reasons. For one, they are designed as mass media to be consumed by the largest audience possible. There's nothing wrong with that, by the way! But it also means these movies are going to try to remain as uncontroversial as possible, especially in a world where simply announcing the next logical story progression (say, for example, Falcon taking over as the new Captain America) is treated like the end times by a significant segment of the population.

But a larger problem is that these comics are set in a reality similar to our own, and thus know that they can't actually solve those issues. Actual comics have the same problem because let's face it: someone as smart as Reed Richards would be able to solve world hunger, but he's never going to because there always has to be conflict in the world. Much like they can never build a prison that can actually contain the bad guys, the superheroes are never going to solve societal issues because that would remove potential conflict from the story. Which means you always end up with a story where the various superheroes may be exposed to *insert social topic here*, but that's always going to be the extent of that interaction. Sometimes the hero may even say something like "we need to do something about this" to show they care, but 5 pages later they're back to punching bad guys.

Thus you end up with a conundrum. Do you give credit to a superhero movie for recognizing that we do, in fact, live in a society, or do you ask why they can't do more? It does not help that these movies, subjectively, do not do a good job with these issues. Black Panther, for example, gets hailed as a movie that tackles racism, but that racism is ingrained into the backstory and character of the main villain Killmonger. The racism he endured informs his character, but his solution to the problem is to become more violent because he's the bad guy. You end up with a messy situation where T'Challa is forced to try and thread the needle between "racism is bad" and "we can't overthrow the society that was racist to you". I don't think it necessarily does this successfully, but that failure is only caused because of poor choices to set the story up in this way.

I have other problems with this idea (including the fact that these stories are told from very privileged positions both in the writers room and on the screen) but I'll leave it at that for now.

This is a really terrific take! Although I think it's pretty much spot-on, I would add that part of the problem is also that the world of the MCU isn't close enough to our reality. Social problems in the real world come from complexity and ambiguity. This mostly doesn't exist in the world of the MCU, and especially the characters that inhabit it. As long as the villains are unambiguous villains, and the heroes (largely) unimpeachable heroes, there isn't enough freedom for there to be both conflict and a genuine exploration of real world social issues. Instead, as you say, you get a few lines or a few nods of backstory, before the heroes go back to solving the problem with their fists.
 

Robbiem

Well-Known Member
So here's the thing:

A superhero movie (we're talking about the MCU in particular but DC movies also fit in here) is never going to do anything beyond a surface-level mentioning of a big societal issue for a few reasons. For one, they are designed as mass media to be consumed by the largest audience possible. There's nothing wrong with that, by the way! But it also means these movies are going to try to remain as uncontroversial as possible, especially in a world where simply announcing the next logical story progression (say, for example, Falcon taking over as the new Captain America) is treated like the end times by a significant segment of the population.

But a larger problem is that these comics are set in a reality similar to our own, and thus know that they can't actually solve those issues. Actual comics have the same problem because let's face it: someone as smart as Reed Richards would be able to solve world hunger, but he's never going to because there always has to be conflict in the world. Much like they can never build a prison that can actually contain the bad guys, the superheroes are never going to solve societal issues because that would remove potential conflict from the story. Which means you always end up with a story where the various superheroes may be exposed to *insert social topic here*, but that's always going to be the extent of that interaction. Sometimes the hero may even say something like "we need to do something about this" to show they care, but 5 pages later they're back to punching bad guys.

Thus you end up with a conundrum. Do you give credit to a superhero movie for recognizing that we do, in fact, live in a society, or do you ask why they can't do more? It does not help that these movies, subjectively, do not do a good job with these issues. Black Panther, for example, gets hailed as a movie that tackles racism, but that racism is ingrained into the backstory and character of the main villain Killmonger. The racism he endured informs his character, but his solution to the problem is to become more violent because he's the bad guy. You end up with a messy situation where T'Challa is forced to try and thread the needle between "racism is bad" and "we can't overthrow the society that was racist to you". I don't think it necessarily does this successfully, but that failure is only caused because of poor choices to set the story up in this way.

I have other problems with this idea (including the fact that these stories are told from very privileged positions both in the writers room and on the screen) but I'll leave it at that for now.

Really good post. To me a some of these movies fail at times because they take a - ‘we are telling you this is bad‘ approach to storytelling. Star Trek can also be like this. I find something like star wars more interesting because rather than taking a view of what’s good or bad it shows how peoples actions lead to outcomes, look at Anakin’s journey in the prequels he isn’t a bad person at first and becomes evil because he is manipulated into doing bad things for good reasons, Luke makes a different choices showing how small changes lead to different outcomes
 

TragicMike

Well-Known Member
Of the films you mentioned I’ve only seen Infinity War which I liked despite not knowing a lot of the backstories.

As far as it being a “red flag” Martin Scorsese would disagree with you.

They literally are trying to connect all 22 or so movies in one way or another. How do you do that and create any real differentiation of genres? They all feel like one genre to someone who isn’t really into the MCU Universe. Super hero’s in different costumes. Tons of action. Not a lot of story or depth. It’s why my favorite Super hero movies are usually the first installment as they have the most story/ set up. Maybe the problem is they just release too many too fast. Fatigue.
1. Did you actually read Scorsese's article or did you just read the headline? I'm curious what about his opinion in general has relevance to what I said. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

2. The Internet is a weird place. Not only did you openly admit to only watching ~10 MCU movies, but you then you follow that up by trying to make some blanket statement about 22 movies (half of which you admittedly didn't watch).

Regardless, you're starting this off on a false premise. That common tropes within the movies prevent them from differentiating the stories into different genres. Terminator, Back to the Future, and Avengers Endgame all share common sci-fi tropes yet no one could confuse any of them with each other.
 

TragicMike

Well-Known Member
I don't even dislike Marvel but stop this. They're dumb fun action movies, not "modern Greek-tragedies." It's ok to like stupid stuff. You don't need to justify it.
Infinity War is absolutely a modern greek-tragedy. I'm surprised that's the part of my post you had an issue with. It's kinda obvious.

The moment you go into something calling it a "dumb action", you really prevent yourself from being able to appreciate it for its worth. That would be like dismissing Neon Genesis Evangelion as a "dumb action anime about fighting robots" or Metal Gear Solid 2 as a "dumb action video game about shooting people." I'm not saying Infinity War is as intellectually stimulating as those examples of media, but ignoring it being a modern-day interpretation of a Greek tragedy because it has action set pieces? Nah, you need something better than that.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
1. Did you actually read Scorsese's article or did you just read the headline? I'm curious what about his opinion in general has relevance to what I said. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

2. The Internet is a weird place. Not only did you openly admit to only watching ~10 MCU movies, but you then you follow that up by trying to make some blanket statement about 22 movies (half of which you admittedly didn't watch).

Regardless, you're starting this off on a false premise. That common tropes within the movies prevent them from differentiating the stories into different genres. Terminator, Back to the Future, and Avengers Endgame all share common sci-fi tropes yet no one could confuse any of them with each other.

Whatever you say. I swear I don’t care
 

J4546

Well-Known Member
i heard rumors that the hong kong ride was sent back to the drawing boards cause low capacity and high cost of ride/theming and now may bea drop tower style ride.... I hope that doesnt mean its cancelled in CA. Though even if its not, i do wish theyd theme it better like the concept art in HK vs the CA concept art which is boring.
 

PostScott

Well-Known Member
Is he fully manipulated? He has an anger outburst in 2, makes a split second bad choice in 3 thinking he can save his wife, and then starts killing kids 5 minutes later. I'd say he's just insane in the prequels and goes from 0 to evil in 5 seconds.

The idea of a tragic character is great, it was just poor execution.
It was done much better in the Clone Wars show
 

Dear Prudence

Well-Known Member
So shang chi(an obscure character) blew away even Disney's expectations and went over 90 million this weekend. This sets up the eternals to go over 100 million and then no way home to truly explode. I guess marvel isn't going anywhere anytime soon. This definitely bodes well for more investment.
He wasn't obscure to me! 😭😫 Shang Chi, Echo, Werewolf, Black Panther are all my faves! I've never been particularly impressed with Scorsese's work (but he seems pretty impressed with himself 🤪🙃), and if he doesn't like them, he doesn't have to watch them, it's that simple. I know they're in talks to make movies/ series with Echo and Werewolf, and I hope they cast Native actors for the parks. Marvel has some really, really good material in its pantheon. I admit I haven't seen very many of the films (because I am just too busy), but I have enjoyed and been impressed with what I saw.
 

the_rich

Well-Known Member
To the general public he was, but im glad you're getting to see them on the big screen. Quite honestly marvel built up the mcu without having any of their Alist characters. Some had name recognition but they were never at the top of the comic world. It probably forced them into being more creative and reaching deep into their catalog.
 

Nirya

Well-Known Member
Shocked at the financial success of Shang-Chi. Not to downplay its success, but I haven't really heard much buzz around the movie itself, though. I wonder if its opening box office is more attributed to more theaters being open, people wanting to get back out, and Marvel being a trusted brand, and less so with the quality of the movie. Or perhaps Shang-Chi is actually excellent and checks all the boxes for a good movie. I have no idea, though, as I've not seen it (and honestly I don't plan to).
Shang-Chi is getting a ton of buzz for being a really good movie, with its fight scenes in particular drawing praise for actually being good and not just "Marvel superhero fight" good.
 

Dear Prudence

Well-Known Member
To the general public he was, but im glad you're getting to see them on the big screen. Quite honestly marvel built up the mcu without having any of their Alist characters. Some had name recognition but they were never at the top of the comic world. It probably forced them into being more creative and reaching deep into their catalog.
I totally get what you're saying. I think people who watched shows like The Super Hero Squad Show or who read the comics are way more familiar with the Marvel Pantheon than the average person who likes Spider Man or who casually watches Marvel movies. I just hope that Disney recognizes the success of Shang Chi and invests in other parts of the catalog, because we could have some seriously amazing results.
 

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