Avengers Campus - Reactions / Reviews

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Can you please elaborate?
There are metrics besides budget that have to be met, such as various capacities. You can’t just cut one thing for another. Feasibility is also based on a proposal developed by Walt Disney Imagineering. If more money was needed, beyond the ridiculous amount already being spent, then the project should have been better estimated.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
There are metrics besides budget that have to be met, such as various capacities. You can’t just cut one thing for another. Feasibility is also based on a proposal developed by Walt Disney Imagineering. If more money was needed, beyond the ridiculous amount already being spent, then the project should have been better estimated.

Why can’t things be cut when they re in the planning phase and coming up with what’s going to go in the land based on the budget?
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Why can’t things be cut when they re in the planning phase and coming up with what’s going to go in the land based on the budget?
Because they’re not given some dollar amount and told to make whatever. The programmatic requirements significantly shape the plan. If you had someone designing a custom house for you, you wouldn’t just give them a dollar amount and tell them to do whatever. You’d want to make sure they include all of the rooms you want and you may decide to spend more if it’s really necessary to meet your requirements.
 

shortstop

Well-Known Member
Because they’re not given some dollar amount and told to make whatever. The programmatic requirements significantly shape the plan. If you had someone designing a custom house for you, you wouldn’t just give them a dollar amount and tell them to do whatever. You’d want to make sure they include all of the rooms you want and you may decide to spend more if it’s really necessary to meet your requirements.
This is true, but they also must have some sense of budget when entering the early design/programming phases. They at least need a ballpark figure to base their ideas around.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Because they’re not given some dollar amount and told to make whatever. The programmatic requirements significantly shape the plan. If you had someone designing a custom house for you, you wouldn’t just give them a dollar amount and tell them to do whatever. You’d want to make sure they include all of the rooms you want and you may decide to spend more if it’s really necessary to meet your requirements.

Ok so who is giving the requirements? The execs are saying they need a Dr. Strange show? Who’s dropping the ball in your view? Are you saying the imagineers are not to blame in any capacity for some of these weak projects they ve rolled out the last few years?

I’m not going to pretend to know the inner workings of WDI or Disney in general But it’s obvious they ve been spending a lot to give us a little. It’s not all Chapeks fault although I put most of the blame on him. The imagineers can do better than Pixar Pier, GOTG, and warehouse Spiderman (TSMM 1.5) with the millions of dollars they re getting to play with.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
This is true, but they also must have some sense of budget when entering the early design/programming phases. They at least need a ballpark figure to base their ideas around.
Yes, something needs to be known to get started, but it is not always the final amount. Even then, budget is not the problem. Walt Disney Imagineering just spent an Expedition Everest amount of money on Pixar Pier.
 

Phroobar

Well-Known Member
If this land fails, what are the chances that the the creatives behind all the recent Disney attractions get fired? Because it seems like most of the recent additions haven't lived up to the hype.
They will all get promotions to upper management. Less people riding means less wear and tear means less maintenance means cost savings. As long as people buy drinks and Marvel t-shirts and $200 Infinity Gauntlets, it is a complete success.
 

Disney Analyst

Well-Known Member
Or what if the site that can’t be named do have a way into their documents system to leak stuff? 😱 maybe it was actually stolen? I mean, regardless I think these sites that are quite popular shouldn’t take stolen property from potential disgruntled employees either... you’d think Disney would have some legal power here, and these sites could form some code of ethics.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Ok so who is giving the requirements? The execs are saying they need a Dr. Strange show? Who’s dropping the ball in your view? Are you saying the imagineers are not to blame in any capacity for some of these weak projects they ve rolled out the last few years?

I’m not going to pretend to know the inner workings of WDI or Disney in general But it’s obvious they ve been spending a lot to give us a little. It’s not all Chapeks fault although I put most of the blame on him. The imagineers can do better than Pixar Pier, GOTG, and warehouse Spiderman (TSMM 1.5) with the millions of dollars they re getting to play with.
The programmatic requirements usually come from the parks.

Walt Disney Imagineering definitely shares blame for their out of control costs. Weis tried doing Shanghai Disneyland on more of a Universal Creative model of greater delegation (which is less true today than it was at the start of the decade) and it didn’t work. Really cutting through the red tape is going to require someone with the knowledge and power to really hack away at the bureaucracy that has built up over decades (Gurr complained about this in the late 60s) at Disney and for that not happening I blame Iger. Iger is the one who doesn’t like theme parks and wanted to jettison them as part of his efforts to refocus Disney on its core competencies and he continues to not just meddle but place in charge people who share his lack of experience with the industry. Chapek is doing what his boss wants in ways that he can understand. He’s pushing smaller projects with franchises because they the things his boss wants: franchise attractions for a [relatively] lower cost. Really fixing the problems would be empowering someone to cut a lot of people out of the process, people who are often there initially for some legitimate reason but the sort of person who is going to understand the industry and process well enough to be able to make such decisions is someone Iger would not respect or trust.

And it’s really weird that I named four people in the above, all of them Bob.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Or what if the site that can’t be named do have a way into their documents system to leak stuff? 😱 maybe it was actually stolen? I mean, regardless I think these sites that are quite popular shouldn’t take stolen property from potential disgruntled employees either... you’d think Disney would have some legal power here, and these sites could form some code of ethics.
Then Disney has a very serious data breach which they have not noticed.

Not sure how this has anything to do with disgruntled employees.
 

TROR

Well-Known Member
Not even remotely shocked.

These people have been foaming at the mouth to crap on this before Disney even announced the land.
I wonder if that has anything to do with expectations based on the low quality Marvel attractions Disney has delivered up until this point and appears to be continuing with.

Or maybe it's just people who hate change.

We can never know!
 

socalifornian

Well-Known Member
The programmatic requirements usually come from the parks.

Walt Disney Imagineering definitely shares blame for their out of control costs. Weis tried doing Shanghai Disneyland on more of a Universal Creative model of greater delegation (which is less true today than it was at the start of the decade) and it didn’t work. Really cutting through the red tape is going to require someone with the knowledge and power to really hack away at the bureaucracy that has built up over decades (Gurr complained about this in the late 60s) at Disney and for that not happening I blame Iger. Iger is the one who doesn’t like theme parks and wanted to jettison them as part of his efforts to refocus Disney on its core competencies and he continues to not just meddle but place in charge people who share his lack of experience with the industry. Chapek is doing what his boss wants in ways that he can understand. He’s pushing smaller projects with franchises because they the things his boss wants: franchise attractions for a [relatively] lower cost. Really fixing the problems would be empowering someone to cut a lot of people out of the process, people who are often there initially for some legitimate reason but the sort of person who is going to understand the industry and process well enough to be able to make such decisions is someone Iger would not respect or trust.

And it’s really weird that I named four people in the above, all of them Bob.
Gurr:
624A87BE-FD14-4488-BB7D-7300A2EC7BE5.gif
 

FerretAfros

Well-Known Member
The programmatic requirements usually come from the parks.

Walt Disney Imagineering definitely shares blame for their out of control costs. Weis tried doing Shanghai Disneyland on more of a Universal Creative model of greater delegation (which is less true today than it was at the start of the decade) and it didn’t work. Really cutting through the red tape is going to require someone with the knowledge and power to really hack away at the bureaucracy that has built up over decades (Gurr complained about this in the late 60s) at Disney and for that not happening I blame Iger. Iger is the one who doesn’t like theme parks and wanted to jettison them as part of his efforts to refocus Disney on its core competencies and he continues to not just meddle but place in charge people who share his lack of experience with the industry. Chapek is doing what his boss wants in ways that he can understand. He’s pushing smaller projects with franchises because they the things his boss wants: franchise attractions for a [relatively] lower cost. Really fixing the problems would be empowering someone to cut a lot of people out of the process, people who are often there initially for some legitimate reason but the sort of person who is going to understand the industry and process well enough to be able to make such decisions is someone Iger would not respect or trust.

And it’s really weird that I named four people in the above, all of them Bob.
On the one hand, it's great that the leadership has finally decided the parks need investments and have allocated funds for major additions to every park. However, it's also clear that the leadership lacks any expertise to know whether they're getting any sort of value for the money spent. The high-level decisions reflect a lack of understanding of the basic tenents of what makes theme parks successful, and the follow-through shows an incompetence of menu planning. It's not that the decision makers don't care; they don't even understand what it is they're making.

The rate at which WDI blows through budgets is simply unconscionable to anybody with a nominal understanding of the design and construction industry. Their budgets are orders of magnitude higher than their peers, yet they frequently include parts that are unfinished, lackluster, or deferred to an ever-mythical Phase II. Fans often like to claim these shortfalls were due to "budget constraints," when it's actually due to poor management of outrageous amounts of money. Competent leadership could easily right this ship by cutting the excess, but there's been a constant revolving door of leaders with no expertise in the industry for years.

Nobody wants to be the bad guy that tells the creative team that their designs are unreasonable, so instead the budgets keep growing, attraction capacities keep dropping, and the return on investment disappears. The parks sat stagnant for so long in the last 2 decades because it was impossible to justify the expense of adding anything at WDI's price. A leaner process wouldn't just reduce the cost of new projects, it would also incentivize ongoing investment as it's far easier to justify the cost.
Yes, something needs to be known to get started, but it is not always the final amount. Even then, budget is not the problem. Walt Disney Imagineering just spent an Expedition Everest amount of money on Pixar Pier.
If I'm not mistaken, Everest was $100M (in 2006), and Pixar Pier was in the $225M ballpark (in 2018). Obviously inflation comes into play (around 25% in that period), but they spent well over the price of Everest for an aesthetic redo that adds literally nothing of substance to the park. It was a paint job (that somehow managed to miss large portions of the coaster), some new signage, and little more.

Meanwhile in Epcot they're building a rollercoaster that's reportedly budgeted somewhere around $600M, which is approximately the budget of DCA in 2001, or half of EPCOT Center in 1982 with all of it's massive associated infrastructure elements. This new roller coaster will surely have some nifty whizzbang features, but none of that can justify the absurd cost, which is even more embarrassing when you factor in that it's reusing the largest single-roofed facility ever built in a Disney park for little more than an anteroom. Every element of that project is indicative of the waste that's rampant at WDI, from the monetary cost, to the opportunity cost of the existing facility and expanded footprint, to the absurdly long timeline. None of that gives me any confidence in the organization to work with any level of efficiency.

If a government program spent funds this poorly, it would be subject to endless legislative investigations. But instead Disney leadership keeps shoving money to WDI hoping it will solve all the problems, without the most superficial understanding of how or why it's being spent.
 

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