Autism lawsuit court date set Feb 2020

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
Yes and no... if the pattern is the kid “has” to do something “now”... or on a soecific schedule... das doesnt cover it. I’m not saying they should be entitled to that kind of accommodation... but thats the argument against return times. It does not allow them to set their own schedule fully.

Me, I’d point to the long fastpass return lines and ultimate waits we face in those lines and say “well how did junior survive that? Return lines are not immediate boarding. Why can you tolerate an unpredictable wait in line there... but insist other waits are not tolerable?
not as easy as it would seem when people have these impossible restrictions that somehow only rear themselves at disney parks :)

The law does not define limits on what is reasoanble or not for these kinds of accommodations... so it boils down to the courts. And the law is stacked against the business in this regard.

People even challenged the idea and burden people had to go through to register for the das access, etc. and they are right... but disney has to prove to the court it is a practical balance and that the burden is not too great. I think disney is correct in their argument for it being a practical limitation that does not pose too much of a burden... but there is basis to challenge it.
I'm really not trying to argue with you - as I've stated before, my boys both have disabilities - but this is a very important topic and warrants discussion (and I think we're pretty much on the same page, anyway). However, that being said, this sort of lawsuit really ticks me off because it reeks of entitlement and creates resentment among the general population towards ANYONE with disabilities - including those whose families work very hard to help them learn to adapt and cope. It also opens the floodgates for those scumbags who are willing to lie in order to abuse laws meant to protect those with disabilities. The poodle lady also really bothered me - she *may* have had good intentions and been trying to help, but her "service animals" didn't behave as such, nor did she behave properly..."holding court" and the like, and she drew negative attention to a demographic that desperately needs society's attitudes to change.

The whole schedule thing gets me - and I really hope whichever judge hears this case is smart enough to do some math and use some common sense. It's not like you could enter the park in 2014 (this case is 5 years old if memory serves) and do exactly what you wanted exactly when you wanted to. This young man was 22 when they filed the suit. So that means that (rough estimate, of course, based on when my youngest started remembering things regarding his schedule/routine) between the ages of 5 and 22 (approximately 1997-2014), they visited WDW often enough that the young man established his needed routine. What did they do when one of the experiences in their routine was closed? What did they do when they had to wait to enter the parks? What about waiting for transportation? Or waiting for food? What if there was a line for the bathrooms? What if a downpour started while they were in Magic Kingdom? What if they wanted to sit in a particular spot to rest or eat and someone else was sitting there? What if his viewing spot for parades/fireworks was already taken? There is NO WAY he could have followed such a rigid routine that he could be doing the same thing at the same time, for the same length of time, during every trip. It just isn't possible because (as we are all too aware) crowd levels increased dramatically during that time-frame and there are too many variables beyond their personal (or Disney's) control that would have disallowed it. The way they are framing their argument, this young man is unable to tolerate even the smallest deviation, and I really believe that's a lie. I could go even further and posit the question: What do they do when something else he wants isn't immediately available?

As you said earlier, there is a landmark case needed in order to establish a sort of "line in the sand" in regards to what is reasonable and what is not - especially when one considers some of the crazy judgments we've seen in recent years. In my opinion, risking further abuse of already existing laws should be enough to count as crossing that line of what is reasonable.
 

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
It absolutely is. I know full well that my brother's MK routine has an order. We try to accommodate as best we can, especially on day 1 of the trip.
We can't let our youngest catch sight of Dumbo or anything in that corner of MK unless we're ready to spend at least an hour, possibly more over there just in the play area of Dumbo....never mind everything else.

EDIT: I absolutely do allow for that during our trips, but two or three times in a week would be a bit much for the rest of us.
 
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RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
We can't let our youngest catch sight of Dumbo or anything in that corner of MK unless we're ready to spend at least an hour, possibly more over there just in the play area of Dumbo....never mind everything else.

EDIT: I absolutely do allow for that during our trips, but two or three times in a week would be a bit much for the rest of us.
First day at MK, he needs to hit all of his favorites, generally in order:

Jungle Cruise
Pirates
Splash & Thunder
Haunted Mansion
it's a small world
Peter Pan's Flight

After that his anxiety is usually reduced. He has other rides he loves at MK as well, but it's those first 7 that become a priority in order.
 

mergatroid

Well-Known Member
I'm really not trying to argue with you - as I've stated before, my boys both have disabilities - but this is a very important topic and warrants discussion (and I think we're pretty much on the same page, anyway). However, that being said, this sort of lawsuit really ticks me off because it reeks of entitlement and creates resentment among the general population towards ANYONE with disabilities - including those whose families work very hard to help them learn to adapt and cope. It also opens the floodgates for those scumbags who are willing to lie in order to abuse laws meant to protect those with disabilities. The poodle lady also really bothered me - she *may* have had good intentions and been trying to help, but her "service animals" didn't behave as such, nor did she behave properly..."holding court" and the like, and she drew negative attention to a demographic that desperately needs society's attitudes to change.

The whole schedule thing gets me - and I really hope whichever judge hears this case is smart enough to do some math and use some common sense. It's not like you could enter the park in 2014 (this case is 5 years old if memory serves) and do exactly what you wanted exactly when you wanted to. This young man was 22 when they filed the suit. So that means that (rough estimate, of course, based on when my youngest started remembering things regarding his schedule/routine) between the ages of 5 and 22 (approximately 1997-2014), they visited WDW often enough that the young man established his needed routine. What did they do when one of the experiences in their routine was closed? What did they do when they had to wait to enter the parks? What about waiting for transportation? Or waiting for food? What if there was a line for the bathrooms? What if a downpour started while they were in Magic Kingdom? What if they wanted to sit in a particular spot to rest or eat and someone else was sitting there? What if his viewing spot for parades/fireworks was already taken? There is NO WAY he could have followed such a rigid routine that he could be doing the same thing at the same time, for the same length of time, during every trip. It just isn't possible because (as we are all too aware) crowd levels increased dramatically during that time-frame and there are too many variables beyond their personal (or Disney's) control that would have disallowed it. The way they are framing their argument, this young man is unable to tolerate even the smallest deviation, and I really believe that's a lie. I could go even further and posit the question: What do they do when something else he wants isn't immediately available?

As you said earlier, there is a landmark case needed in order to establish a sort of "line in the sand" in regards to what is reasonable and what is not - especially when one considers some of the crazy judgments we've seen in recent years. In my opinion, risking further abuse of already existing laws should be enough to count as crossing that line of what is reasonable.

What a fantastic post, sums it up very well.
 

actioncookbook

Active Member
My wife and I are childless millennials and we intend to stay that way forever. I also worked as an ESE (high school and middle school) teacher for 4 years. I couldnt imagine trying to plan a Disney trip with a child that has disabilities. I salute you folks that do because I know that's something I couldnt do.

All that being said, DAS seems like a good system to me, but I'm an outsider. And as someone with no disabilities and no children with disabilities, this isn't my place to spout off. I hope others in a similar situation understand that, too.

I hope that Disney and the judicial system work out something that is equitable to as many people as possible.
 

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
My wife and I are childless millennials and we intend to stay that way forever. I also worked as an ESE (high school and middle school) teacher for 4 years. I couldnt imagine trying to plan a Disney trip with a child that has disabilities. I salute you folks that do because I know that's something I couldnt do.

All that being said, DAS seems like a good system to me, but I'm an outsider. And as someone with no disabilities and no children with disabilities, this isn't my place to spout off. I hope others in a similar situation understand that, too.

I hope that Disney and the judicial system work out something that is equitable to as many people as possible.
Honestly, without our first trip to Disney when our son was 2 1/2, I very seriously doubt we'd be able to do as much as we do and experience as many things as we are able - there literally isn't anything we are afraid to try. In hindsight, that trip (and the preparation and practice beforehand) changed both of us for the better, and I really feel that the timing of the trip relative to his age was such that it established a level of adaptability in him that I doubt would be as high as it is otherwise. As to making our trips successful as he gets older, I find that splitting days between one park where we do our first 3 fastpasses, then allowing a choice of which park to hit later in the day and letting him help make the choices makes a big difference. I'm sort of an uber-planner, and use a spreadsheet so we don't end up getting stuck in the same park too many times over the course of our trip - the early part of the day is rigidly planned, while the second half is more loose and offers choices relative to our dinner plans and such.

Interestingly, WDW seems to level both of my boys out. I realize this isn't the norm for children with autism, but something about the chaos and over-stimulation calms them (when they were little, they created their own chaos at home in the form of EVERY toy being out...they NEEDED it that way). We've literally never had any whining or complaining while on property. The one melt-down we did go through would have happened no matter where we were - it was our youngest son's watershed moment about riding in his stroller/holding hands and safety in crowded places.

I consider us to be VERY blessed. Our boys may have challenges and face some difficult roads in the future, but they are both very sweet and loving, and they adore each other. I wouldn't change them for anything.
 

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
First day at MK, he needs to hit all of his favorites, generally in order:

Jungle Cruise
Pirates
Splash & Thunder
Haunted Mansion
it's a small world
Peter Pan's Flight

After that his anxiety is usually reduced. He has other rides he loves at MK as well, but it's those first 7 that become a priority in order.
Ah yes...the order thing. That's super important to my son at home...especially when it comes to bed-time and getting ready for school.
 

KikoKea

Well-Known Member
I seriously have ZERO tolerance for those who try to game any kind of system, and you don't want to know what I think of people who try to manipulate systems intended to help those with disabilities...
Yep. We were at WDW last week and struck up a conversation with a young man (mid-30s or so) about the increased crowds while waiting for a Halloween parade. The young man suggested that my retired military husband ask for a DAS pass so we could skip lines. When my husband pointed out he didn't need a disability pass, the young man said no one would deny it and it was an easy way to get around waiting. I got the impression the young man had followed his own advice- he seemed very proud of his knowledge of how to game the system.
 

larryz

I'm Just A Tourist!
Premium Member
Yep. We were at WDW last week and struck up a conversation with a young man (mid-30s or so) about the increased crowds while waiting for a Halloween parade. The young man suggested that my retired military husband ask for a DAS pass so we could skip lines. When my husband pointed out he didn't need a disability pass, the young man said no one would deny it and it was an easy way to get around waiting. I got the impression the young man had followed his own advice- he seemed very proud of his knowledge of how to game the system.
Times like this make me wish you had taken a selfie with him... and then posted his photo here.
 

Ravenclaw78

Well-Known Member
Yep. We were at WDW last week and struck up a conversation with a young man (mid-30s or so) about the increased crowds while waiting for a Halloween parade. The young man suggested that my retired military husband ask for a DAS pass so we could skip lines. When my husband pointed out he didn't need a disability pass, the young man said no one would deny it and it was an easy way to get around waiting. I got the impression the young man had followed his own advice- he seemed very proud of his knowledge of how to game the system.

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt when I see seemingly "normal" people using DAS, because I am very keenly and personally aware that not all disabilities are visible, but nothing except endangering my kid will set me off faster than brazenly bragging about abusing a system meant for disabled or neuro-atypical people. Heck, it took three very difficult trips to WDW before I finally convinced myself that an adult using DAS for a "mere" anxiety disorder wouldn't be abusing the system myself.
 

MsAnniee

Member
Please bear with me on this long post...there is a point.

My boys' autism is different between the two of them - my youngest was diagnosed at 3, my oldest at 10. They're now 8 and 13. My oldest is very high functioning (which is part of why his diagnosis was so late in comparison to his brother), and his autism rears its head primarily in the form of food sensitivities, some social awkwardness, sensitivity to how clothing feels, noise/sound quality sensitivities, and an ability to argue with logic that would put F. Lee Bailey to shame. My youngest has the same noise/sound quality sensitivities, more severe food sensitivities than his brother, issues falling asleep, a moderate speech/language delay (he's relatively easy to understand if he isn't excited, but he didn't really "talk" outside of using signs and a few words until he was about 5, so he sounds MUCH younger than his age), the same social awkwardness (neither has real issues making friends, and they're both loving and have no aversion to hugging/cuddling - it's more of a lack of understanding when someone isn't interested in something, etc), some issues surrounding safety, a general developmental delay, and a need to do repetitive things the same way (like skipping the deli at the supermarket throws him off a bit unless he knows ahead of time that we're not going to the deli). One of the things that makes autism so tricky is that as the boys grow up, new challenges sometimes arise in surprising places. For example, my oldest didn't have any clothing sensitivities until about a year ago - he used to just put on whatever was in his dresser and never complained. Suddenly I found myself having to find t-shirts that don't have any kind of imagery on them because they make him feel like he's going to get a rash, and jeans make him feel like he can't breathe.

Our first trip to WDW with them was when they were 2 1/2 and 7 1/2, so prior to diagnosis for both of them. Our youngest was in early intervention for his speech/language delay, but other than that, I was operating under the impression that we just had a very difficult toddler. We made the choice to go to WDW because it was important to us that our oldest experience it before he outgrew the "magic" (hubby and I didn't go on our first trips until we were teenagers, but then honeymooned at WDW). However, the thought of bringing our "difficult" toddler was almost enough to cause me to have panic attacks. He was a "runner" and behaving himself while we went out and about was far from the norm. He'd grab things off of shelves; if he wasn't in his stroller, he'd take off like a shot and run as far as he could or hide and not answer when we called him; he didn't understand "stranger danger"; he couldn't follow simple instructions; he couldn't yet even say his name or tell you how old he was. Waiting? FORGET IT. Just waiting in line at the supermarket was enough to cause a melt-down. I almost told my husband that it was too much - we'd never be able to handle him at WDW - but before I did, I had an "AHA!" moment. It occurred to me that not only was I letting our toddler's difficulties change how we lived, but I was letting them dictate what things he'd be able to enjoy as he got older.

I dug in. For the three months leading up to our trip, I brought him to as many places as I could think of that were difficult for him - the mall, the library, drive-in movies, movies at the theater, Edaville Railroad, the beach (remember the running? Yeah...not enjoyable), quick runs to the store (he was really bad at those), walk/run events, the 4th of July parade and fireworks...if it was loud, unpredictable, required waiting, and had tons of people around, we did it, and we did at least 5 different things a week. I'll never forget how close I came to giving up or how many times I wanted to - we left almost EVERY SINGLE outing early, very often with both of us in tears and almost always with people giving us looks and whispering - sometimes not so quietly. By the time of our trip there'd been improvement on both of our parts - but I was still scared - there isn't anything that can even come close to comparing to WDW near us, but I did what I could.

Our trip was beyond magical...it was downright MIRACULOUS. He was a little fidgety while we were en route to WDW, but what toddler isn't? Considering that we drive an hour, park and take a bus for 45 minutes, then the 3-hour flight, then the ME to the resort, he did better than most neuro-typical kids of that age! NOT A SINGLE TEAR OR EVEN MOMENT OF CRANKINESS OUR ENTIRE TRIP. Please don't think I'm exaggerating - I'm really not, and my husband would say the same. One thing I pride myself on is being realistic when it comes to my boys. He ate a wider variety of foods, he was pleasant during meals (sitting at the table had been a HUGE thing with him not lasting more than 10 minutes), he slept when he was supposed to, he held hands when he was supposed to...he was like a totally different kid. Even more miraculous?!? HE STARTED TRYING TO SAY NEW WORDS. His teachers and I compared notes multiple times after our trip and we all believe that the practice beforehand was what made it so successful - but also that he experienced a jump in his development while we were at WDW. Another aspect we all agreed on is that the practice and preparation for the trip helped me develop my ability to "see around corners" and head off problems before they occur. It became habit to visualize what we were going to do throughout the day and try to spot areas that will be difficult so that I'm ready for them when they happen and we're able to deal with them more quickly and effectively. That first trip didn't just change my son...it changed ME.

In the six years since that trip, I've approached everything with a different attitude. My boys have shown me that regardless of their autism, I can set the expectations bar higher for them and they will reach it - even if it takes them a little longer or they need a little more help than neuro-typical kids. In all our trips to WDW, we've only had two instances of crying - once when heading into Hollywood Studios when our youngest was 4, he decided he didn't want to hold hands and wanted to walk by himself like his older brother instead of riding in his stroller. When we said "Sorry, but no", a huge melt-down ensued. He was allowed to have his melt-down, which lasted about 10 minutes (we're lucky in that he doesn't try to injure himself). Yes, we got tons of looks and whispers from passers-by, but we never had a problem with holding hands again - even at home. The other time was 100% my fault and was really just a temper tantrum...he loves Dumbo, and on our last day, our last ride was on the Tomorrowland Speedway, and silly me didn't realize ahead of time that you can actually SEE Dumbo from the Speedway. Cue massive temper tantrum and refusing to walk even though we were leaving directly from MK to go to the airport. On each trip, our youngest has had at least a small jump forward - we even potty trained him at WDW when he was almost 5 after struggling with it for nearly 2 years at home. (He was refusing to at home, and the drastic change in routine did the trick.) Both of our boys are now well-seasoned travelers - I was approached after our flight home from WDW when they were 5 and 10 by a woman who tapped me on the shoulder and said "I had NO IDEA you had two children with you! They were both so well behaved and quiet!" We've taken them for long weekends to amusement parks, Great Wolf Lodge...there isn't a single thing we are afraid of trying. We've never needed the DAS pass, and I consider us to be truly blessed - even with the challenges we sometimes face.

So, my point to you @RobWDW1971, is that the world is not going to bend or change for children with disabilities, never mind adults who have disabilities. While WDW is far from being the real world, there are aspects of WDW that are identical to the real world - like waiting your turn; loud, unexpected noises; crowds, etc. etc. My job as a mother is to prepare them to face the real world and to help them develop means of coping for those instances that are difficult for them. I would be doing them a huge dis-service and severely limiting their future lives if I were to let them fall into a pattern of allowing their challenges to determine what they can and cannot accomplish.

@Lilofan...I may disagree with you vehemently on some things, but you are 100% correct in thinking those are the actions you should take.
You are an awesome parent. I taught children with autism for years. I know theses wonderful children can adapt if an adult has the patience to teach his/her child adaptive behaviors. Unfortunately too many parents who have special needs children use the children’s disability.
 

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
You are an awesome parent. I taught children with autism for years. I know theses wonderful children can adapt if an adult has the patience to teach his/her child adaptive behaviors. Unfortunately too many parents who have special needs children use the children’s disability.
Thank you. It's really very sad - I saw it all the time when my boys were in preschool. I still see it now that they're older, but not as often.
 
I have autism and anxiety and I sometimes have problems with the wait times. While I do have DAS set up, I don't use it very often unless I know I'll legitimately panic in the line for a ride. Unfortunately it seems that some people like to abuse the system, and this court case gives me a foreboding feeling about the future of the DAS for autistic people.

I only have DAS so if I need it I can use it. Same with my mom, who has her own due to a leg injury. But enough people game the system that I'm starting to worry. And lawsuits about an old version of the DAS seem to me to be a cue for higher-ups to restrict it further.
 

WDWTrojan

Well-Known Member
I have autism and anxiety and I sometimes have problems with the wait times. While I do have DAS set up, I don't use it very often unless I know I'll legitimately panic in the line for a ride. Unfortunately it seems that some people like to abuse the system, and this court case gives me a foreboding feeling about the future of the DAS for autistic people.

I only have DAS so if I need it I can use it. Same with my mom, who has her own due to a leg injury. But enough people game the system that I'm starting to worry. And lawsuits about an old version of the DAS seem to me to be a cue for higher-ups to restrict it further.

I don't think you have much to worry about. This lawsuit is about a previous program, called Guest Assistance Card (GAC), which would allow essentially immediate front-of-line access for those with autism and other disabilities. DAS was created because it met the standards of catering to the needs of most guests and wasn't as ripe for abuse, as it was not an immediate "front of line" pass. Given this, it is likely the current program will stay. What is unlikely is that the old program, which the lawsuit is trying to restore, will return.
 

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