JenniferS
When you're the leader, you don't have to follow.
You can have my croutons too, however you want to say those.
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Autism lawsuit court date set Feb 2020
- Thread starter Tony the Tigger
- Start date
Purduevian
Well-Known Member
Lots of issues with turning the park into a virtual queue system using MDE.
1) Not everyone has smart phones
2) Confused guests not understanding system (currently if they don't use fastpass, they can still get in line)
3)Where to put all the guests that are no longer standing in a line (physically not enough space to throw all of them on paths, stores, restaurants, ect.)
This is what Universal tried with Tapu Tapu on a much much smaller scale... it had some massive growing pains and still isn't 100% ideal.
Tiny toast squares.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Unfortunately that’s not what the law is. It’s that the disabled can not be discriminated against... not that all parties are bound to ONLY get the same. Different meanings.
The intention of the law is inclusion. The equality portion is to ensure the disabled are entitled to the full participation, not to constrain anyone. It also tries to avoid “separate but equal” solutions.
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flynnibus
Premium Member
I wonder if a compromise in the future could be “no waits, but limited uses”.
Imagine if you had a profile (like a mde) that tracked usage and Disney simply gave guests 5 uses per ticket day. Enrollment would be more closely tied to individuals to avoid duplicate accounts. System counts your uses..
Problem is people would not be satisfied with it even tho I’m sure it would address the vast majority of needs.
The lawyers would successfully argue that if you can do it once for me, you can do it all the time. The burden on other guests is immaterial and they’d argue against the notion that doing so would cause unreasonable burdened on Disney.
Imagine if you had a profile (like a mde) that tracked usage and Disney simply gave guests 5 uses per ticket day. Enrollment would be more closely tied to individuals to avoid duplicate accounts. System counts your uses..
Problem is people would not be satisfied with it even tho I’m sure it would address the vast majority of needs.
The lawyers would successfully argue that if you can do it once for me, you can do it all the time. The burden on other guests is immaterial and they’d argue against the notion that doing so would cause unreasonable burdened on Disney.
BigThunderMatt
Well-Known Member
And this is exactly why it would never be implemented. There is always going to be some family or individual that thinks they should be entitled to more than what is offered. If Disney gives in and does it, it creates a slippery slope, especially in the age of the internet. Better to just not have it be an option at all.
RobWDW1971
Well-Known Member
I understand why they attempt to do it, the question is does that potential positive benefit outweigh the guaranteed negative and traumatic impact of intentionally and knowingly subjecting a child to the inherent crowds, waiting, and frustration of a Disney World theme park?
And does the impact on the other guests and the enjoyment of their experience ever become a consideration in the decision?
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danlb_2000
Premium Member
mergatroid
Well-Known Member
I would think a lawyer could prove that to be false. When they arrived at the TTC did they not have to wait at security and then wait for the monorail or ferry boat? I mean by the action of attending the Magic Kingdom alone proves there's an ability to wait to some degree.
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ImperfectPixie
Well-Known Member
Please bear with me on this long post...there is a point.
My boys' autism is different between the two of them - my youngest was diagnosed at 3, my oldest at 10. They're now 8 and 13. My oldest is very high functioning (which is part of why his diagnosis was so late in comparison to his brother), and his autism rears its head primarily in the form of food sensitivities, some social awkwardness, sensitivity to how clothing feels, noise/sound quality sensitivities, and an ability to argue with logic that would put F. Lee Bailey to shame. My youngest has the same noise/sound quality sensitivities, more severe food sensitivities than his brother, issues falling asleep, a moderate speech/language delay (he's relatively easy to understand if he isn't excited, but he didn't really "talk" outside of using signs and a few words until he was about 5, so he sounds MUCH younger than his age), the same social awkwardness (neither has real issues making friends, and they're both loving and have no aversion to hugging/cuddling - it's more of a lack of understanding when someone isn't interested in something, etc), some issues surrounding safety, a general developmental delay, and a need to do repetitive things the same way (like skipping the deli at the supermarket throws him off a bit unless he knows ahead of time that we're not going to the deli). One of the things that makes autism so tricky is that as the boys grow up, new challenges sometimes arise in surprising places. For example, my oldest didn't have any clothing sensitivities until about a year ago - he used to just put on whatever was in his dresser and never complained. Suddenly I found myself having to find t-shirts that don't have any kind of imagery on them because they make him feel like he's going to get a rash, and jeans make him feel like he can't breathe.
Our first trip to WDW with them was when they were 2 1/2 and 7 1/2, so prior to diagnosis for both of them. Our youngest was in early intervention for his speech/language delay, but other than that, I was operating under the impression that we just had a very difficult toddler. We made the choice to go to WDW because it was important to us that our oldest experience it before he outgrew the "magic" (hubby and I didn't go on our first trips until we were teenagers, but then honeymooned at WDW). However, the thought of bringing our "difficult" toddler was almost enough to cause me to have panic attacks. He was a "runner" and behaving himself while we went out and about was far from the norm. He'd grab things off of shelves; if he wasn't in his stroller, he'd take off like a shot and run as far as he could or hide and not answer when we called him; he didn't understand "stranger danger"; he couldn't follow simple instructions; he couldn't yet even say his name or tell you how old he was. Waiting? FORGET IT. Just waiting in line at the supermarket was enough to cause a melt-down. I almost told my husband that it was too much - we'd never be able to handle him at WDW - but before I did, I had an "AHA!" moment. It occurred to me that not only was I letting our toddler's difficulties change how we lived, but I was letting them dictate what things he'd be able to enjoy as he got older.
I dug in. For the three months leading up to our trip, I brought him to as many places as I could think of that were difficult for him - the mall, the library, drive-in movies, movies at the theater, Edaville Railroad, the beach (remember the running? Yeah...not enjoyable), quick runs to the store (he was really bad at those), walk/run events, the 4th of July parade and fireworks...if it was loud, unpredictable, required waiting, and had tons of people around, we did it, and we did at least 5 different things a week. I'll never forget how close I came to giving up or how many times I wanted to - we left almost EVERY SINGLE outing early, very often with both of us in tears and almost always with people giving us looks and whispering - sometimes not so quietly. By the time of our trip there'd been improvement on both of our parts - but I was still scared - there isn't anything that can even come close to comparing to WDW near us, but I did what I could.
Our trip was beyond magical...it was downright MIRACULOUS. He was a little fidgety while we were en route to WDW, but what toddler isn't? Considering that we drive an hour, park and take a bus for 45 minutes, then the 3-hour flight, then the ME to the resort, he did better than most neuro-typical kids of that age! NOT A SINGLE TEAR OR EVEN MOMENT OF CRANKINESS OUR ENTIRE TRIP. Please don't think I'm exaggerating - I'm really not, and my husband would say the same. One thing I pride myself on is being realistic when it comes to my boys. He ate a wider variety of foods, he was pleasant during meals (sitting at the table had been a HUGE thing with him not lasting more than 10 minutes), he slept when he was supposed to, he held hands when he was supposed to...he was like a totally different kid. Even more miraculous?!? HE STARTED TRYING TO SAY NEW WORDS. His teachers and I compared notes multiple times after our trip and we all believe that the practice beforehand was what made it so successful - but also that he experienced a jump in his development while we were at WDW. Another aspect we all agreed on is that the practice and preparation for the trip helped me develop my ability to "see around corners" and head off problems before they occur. It became habit to visualize what we were going to do throughout the day and try to spot areas that will be difficult so that I'm ready for them when they happen and we're able to deal with them more quickly and effectively. That first trip didn't just change my son...it changed ME.
In the six years since that trip, I've approached everything with a different attitude. My boys have shown me that regardless of their autism, I can set the expectations bar higher for them and they will reach it - even if it takes them a little longer or they need a little more help than neuro-typical kids. In all our trips to WDW, we've only had two instances of crying - once when heading into Hollywood Studios when our youngest was 4, he decided he didn't want to hold hands and wanted to walk by himself like his older brother instead of riding in his stroller. When we said "Sorry, but no", a huge melt-down ensued. He was allowed to have his melt-down, which lasted about 10 minutes (we're lucky in that he doesn't try to injure himself). Yes, we got tons of looks and whispers from passers-by, but we never had a problem with holding hands again - even at home. The other time was 100% my fault and was really just a temper tantrum...he loves Dumbo, and on our last day, our last ride was on the Tomorrowland Speedway, and silly me didn't realize ahead of time that you can actually SEE Dumbo from the Speedway. Cue massive temper tantrum and refusing to walk even though we were leaving directly from MK to go to the airport. On each trip, our youngest has had at least a small jump forward - we even potty trained him at WDW when he was almost 5 after struggling with it for nearly 2 years at home. (He was refusing to at home, and the drastic change in routine did the trick.) Both of our boys are now well-seasoned travelers - I was approached after our flight home from WDW when they were 5 and 10 by a woman who tapped me on the shoulder and said "I had NO IDEA you had two children with you! They were both so well behaved and quiet!" We've taken them for long weekends to amusement parks, Great Wolf Lodge...there isn't a single thing we are afraid of trying. We've never needed the DAS pass, and I consider us to be truly blessed - even with the challenges we sometimes face.
So, my point to you @RobWDW1971, is that the world is not going to bend or change for children with disabilities, never mind adults who have disabilities. While WDW is far from being the real world, there are aspects of WDW that are identical to the real world - like waiting your turn; loud, unexpected noises; crowds, etc. etc. My job as a mother is to prepare them to face the real world and to help them develop means of coping for those instances that are difficult for them. I would be doing them a huge dis-service and severely limiting their future lives if I were to let them fall into a pattern of allowing their challenges to determine what they can and cannot accomplish.
@Lilofan...I may disagree with you vehemently on some things, but you are 100% correct in thinking those are the actions you should take.
CJR
Well-Known Member
You're getting confused with what I'm saying. This wouldn't be for the masses, just people using DAS. So, the issues you're suggesting wouldn't be any more difficult or confusing than they already are.
I believe there is a way to make it work virtually, taking out the need of a CM at the entrance of an attraction providing a return time. For example, what I suggest would be that guests using DAS, and only DAS, would no longer need to go to each attraction to get a return time, they could just click on the attraction in the app and get a return time that way, using their ticket or magic band to enter the Fastpass line, if available. If it's not available, they could just show their phone to the CM when the time is ready. Even better, Disney could send a notification or reminder when the time is right to return.
For those without smartphones or unable to use them, they could still go and get a paper pass at the front of the attraction. What I'm suggesting is use both forms, not either/or. Most people would probably appreciate a virtual system, but you could keep the paper system around for those unable to use it. That would be going WAY above and beyond, as well as maximizing efficiency.
Ravenclaw78
Well-Known Member
The intent, and generally the letter, of the ADA is to establish equity in access, not equality. Bear with me here, I'm going to badly stretch a metaphor...
DAS is like giving the two shorter kids one box while the tall kid stands on the ground. It works great for the kid in the middle, who only needs one box. The kid on the right had a more equitable solution under Disney's original system (in which both he and the middle kid had 2 boxes), because he still can't see the game with only one box). Unfortunately, the guy on the left basically shoved the short kid over so he could stand on the 2-box stack with him, turning an equitable solution into an absurd parody of itself. So, now we have a system that works great for the vast majority of those needing accommodations, but really doesn't solve the problem at all for some guests. I'm not sure Disney can do anything other than what they've already done, but I do acknowledge that there are a small number of guests for whom DAS is insufficient to equitably meet their needs. To be truly equitable, there would need to be a 2nd level above DAS that grants front-of-line access. Legoland actually has exactly that - one level that gets return-time passes for attractions (like DAS) and one specifically reserved for more severely autistic guests that gets front-of-line access - but it's a much smaller and kid-focused park and I don't think the same approach would work at WDW's scale.
ImperfectPixie
Well-Known Member
Excellent post - but I disagree with the DAS pass being unable to meet everyone's needs. If waiting is truly that much of an issue that approaching a ride before being able to board it is a problem, some extra planning can avoid it. The person with the disability does NOT have to be present in order for another member of their party to get a return-time. Send one person in the party to get the return time while another keeps the person with the disability distracted and busy doing something else. We use this strategy often with our youngest son just in our day-to-day lives, never mind while at WDW.
flynnibus
Premium Member
The problem with this position is... it is in direct terminology conflict with the actual law. And while it's a way to try to explain the benefit of the law, it can't be used to argue what the law actually is.
The way it describes the terms is problematic because 'equality' in this analogy is dependent on the frame of reference. The diagram works if you base from the ground.. but does not work if your frame of reference is 'seeing the field'. And in the case of the ADA law, it's written from the latter.. not the former.
So in many ways, trying to change the terminology simply creates more confusion and just muddies the water.
The ADA is written broadly so that the accommodation for people is NOT universal. It very much is written so that accommodations should be what fits the person in need. Where the 'consistency' comes into play is a way of coping with the idea of 'what is reasonable'. And the problem with that becomes is people retreat to saying "I only have to do X and I'm ADA compliant..." vs what the actual intention is which is "Person Y needs this kind of help..."
The idea of design standards for physical construction further re-enforces the idea of 'compliance means doing X' instead of tailoring to the individual. (and is a negative that comes with the necessary need for standardized construction requirements)
The fuzzy and miserable part of things is when people are selfish and/or unreasonable about their actual accommodations needed.
danlb_2000
Premium Member
Yes, I agree. The article also says that the plaintiff is "incapable of deviating from consistency, order and routine,”. So is Disney libel if a specific ride is off line, or a specific path is closed? There is no way Disney can guarantee that some will always be able to follow their routine.
Let's not mix our legal terms of art: libel is quite different from liable.
ImperfectPixie
Well-Known Member
SO MUCH YES. This is why my youngest has a 1-to-1 para at school throughout the day, but his older brother doesn't. One needs it, the other does not. It kills me how often people misunderstand the "this person needs this kind of help" vs. "this is what I have to do" thing.
And yes - there are those who will try to take advantage of things. I know someone who exaggerates her son's autism if she thinks it will get her something...she should never have gotten primary custody, and I blame DCF because the proof is in their case-file. (We're friends with the father...and I've seen the mother's behavior first-hand. She's not fit to be a parent.)
There are two adults with autism who frequent the Disney Facebook groups, who are not allowed to join my group because they use their autism as an excuse to be an a$$hat. They get everyone worked up about one divisive topic or another, are rude and insulting, then cry "but I'm autistic!" I'm sorry, but that doesn't fly with me with my boys, there's no way I'm going to let it fly from anyone else.
I also think that's a difficult lesson even for those who don't have autism - that wanting something DOES NOT EQUAL needing something. We work on that consistently with both our boys, and I'm finding that having them earn things they want by doing extra chores around the house or letting their grandparents come up with small jobs they can earn money doing helps a lot...it makes them really contemplate how much they want something and realize that it really isn't a "need".
As an autism parent, I suspect that either this young man's parents are pushing him to follow through with this, or they've taught him to try to get everything he can out of his disability. If he's really that inflexible, that's on them. Life is messy and unpredictable - and I won't let my boys' desire to stay in their comfort zones get in the way of them learning to cope. I teach them to ask for help if they really need it, but don't expect it, and they aren't allowed to use their autism as an excuse for anything.
ImperfectPixie
Well-Known Member
HA! Those are a "thing" at our house! We call them "crazy squares" because that's what our youngest called them before he could say "Cinnamon Toast Crunch"!
