Autism lawsuit court date set Feb 2020

Ravenclaw78

Well-Known Member
I haven't been diagnosed with anything (when I was a kid in the 70's, the only things people were diagnosed with were scoliosis and lice. I got scoliosis LOL.) But I recently discovered a very small dose of alprazolam (xanax) will make me function more "normally" in stressful situations. (It was prescribed to help me shut the brain off to go to sleep at night, and then kind of expanded from there.) ETA: I couldn't admit "anxiety" and "stress" were real things until about 3 years ago.

But I can get panicky if I feel like I can't get out of a certain place easily. Standing in line at the beginning of the Peter Pan queue is cool. Getting stuck in the relatively small, dark space almost to the boats on Pirates (I think there are steps or a slope?) because the ride goes down for ten minutes, I have to avoid getting into my head or I will feel like just running out of there.

I've found my phone to be a Godsend. I can just play solitaire or chat here, and it takes me almost out of that situation temporarily. (Solitaire works better.) Does that help you at all? I also do this while standing on a crowded bus back to the hotel. My husband knows if I'm playing solitaire, I'm stressed lol.
I take Klonopin, which is similar to Xanax. Unfortunately, a whole pill pretty much puts me to sleep for 3 hours, so I have to do a half-dose. That works pretty much like you describe, which is enough for most situations, but for some situations it's insufficient (and sometimes I can't medicate, like when I am going to need to drive afterward). Burying myself in a phone does help, to a point, so I often do use that to tune out the rest of the world, but the darndest thing about being a parent is that my kid (not to mention my wife, though she understands) wants and needs attention too. :)

I don't really know why lines in particular are a problem for me, except to the extent that I can feel trapped in them, and I have plenty of other triggers too. I'm usually good even unmedicated in "normal" lines like grocery stores as long as everything is running relatively smoothly, but a theme park is an entirely different animal. I can do a pretty good impression of a neurotypical guest for 15-20 minutes in a line, maybe 30 or even 45 minutes if it's a comfortable temperature without loud music or weird lighting and nobody's being a jerk, but past that point (if the meds aren't helping enough and I don't have the Niffler or some other sensory comfort or a fidget toy) my fight-or-flight instincts kick into overdrive and I either have to leave the line or I start getting increasingly agitated and ultimately aggressive toward anyone in the vicinity that my brain interprets as a potential threat. We use DAS or day-of Fastpasses for rides with wait times longer than 30 minutes that we can't get Fastpasses for ahead of time, treat <20 minute lines as walk-ons, and play 20-30 minute lines by ear.
 

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
I'd like to take that comment and pose it more respectfully to those who have autism or family with autism. (I have a nephew I was told was "on the spectrum" at a young age, but he lives in another state and there was some debate as to whether he actually had autism or not. My brother doesn't talk about it. I haven't asked.)

So, is waiting at the doctor's office different...because it's a different kind of experience? In other words, nobody is excited to get into the doctor's office, so it's not the same as waiting to go on Haunted Mansion? Serious question, not challenging anything, just don't know and would like to understand.

And waiting for the bathroom - first of all, how often does one really have to do that? I've rarely encountered lines at a bathroom except at a club on Saturday night (not ever at WDW) and obviously a bathroom line will never be as long as standby at Peter Pan, so is it something easier to just "get through" if you come across it?

I'd like to have answers ready for someone who might ask those questions in a flippant manner.
For my boys, it's all about keeping them preoccupied and not focused on the fact that they're waiting - regardless of where we are. They don't have anxiety or get upset, but their ability to wind each other up and/or drive the "normies" (including myself) within earshot of them around the bend reaches record-breaking proportions pretty quickly if they get bored enough, so I always let them bring a stuffie or something with them to play with or find "jobs" for them like fetching items from shelves at the supermarket. We don't just "wait" in lines at Disney - we make that an activity and play I Spy, talk to guests around us (my boys have an uncanny ability to make friends just about everywhere they go), look at the park maps or our schedule, etc. For us, it's all about being prepared.

Doctor's offices are a piece of cake - whatever they brought with them generally keeps them entertained. Bathrooms aren't bad - at least not that we've seen yet.

Fun fact - they actually ASKED to wait in line for Mine Train FOR THREE HOURS our last trip...hubby said he was up for it...my response was "See ya in two hours!" as I fled at a full run to browse shops on Main Street and enjoy a churro on the Tom Sawyer Island dock. ;)
 

bubbles1812

Well-Known Member
For my boys, it's all about keeping them preoccupied and not focused on the fact that they're waiting - regardless of where we are. They don't have anxiety or get upset, but their ability to wind each other up and/or drive the "normies" (including myself) within earshot of them around the bend reaches record-breaking proportions pretty quickly if they get bored enough, so I always let them bring a stuffie or something with them to play with or find "jobs" for them like fetching items from shelves at the supermarket. We don't just "wait" in lines at Disney - we make that an activity and play I Spy, talk to guests around us (my boys have an uncanny ability to make friends just about everywhere they go), look at the park maps or our schedule, etc. For us, it's all about being prepared.

Doctor's offices are a piece of cake - whatever they brought with them generally keeps them entertained. Bathrooms aren't bad - at least not that we've seen yet.

Fun fact - they actually ASKED to wait in line for Mine Train FOR THREE HOURS our last trip...hubby said he was up for it...my response was "See ya in two hours!" as I fled at a full run to browse shops on Main Street and enjoy a churro on the Tom Sawyer Island dock. ;)
Bless your husband! I would have been right there with ya. Anything past 30 minutes (with a few exceptions... Mansion’s and Pirate’s wait times are generally inflated enough that I knock 15 minutes waiting time off whatever is on the board) and I walk away.

I hope it was a good churro! And that the wait wasn’t actually 3 hours....
 

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
Bless your husband! I would have been right there with ya. Anything past 30 minutes (with a few exceptions... Mansion’s and Pirate’s wait times are generally inflated enough that I knock 15 minutes waiting time off whatever is on the board) and I walk away.

I hope it was a good churro! And that the wait wasn’t actually 3 hours....
It was pretty much exactly 3 hours, lol. I went back right at the two hour mark, and it's a good thing I did - hubby needed to pee. :hilarious:
 

unmitigated disaster

Well-Known Member
I'd like to take that comment and pose it more respectfully to those who have autism or family with autism. (I have a nephew I was told was "on the spectrum" at a young age, but he lives in another state and there was some debate as to whether he actually had autism or not. My brother doesn't talk about it. I haven't asked.)

So, is waiting at the doctor's office different...because it's a different kind of experience? In other words, nobody is excited to get into the doctor's office, so it's not the same as waiting to go on Haunted Mansion? Serious question, not challenging anything, just don't know and would like to understand.

And waiting for the bathroom - first of all, how often does one really have to do that? I've rarely encountered lines at a bathroom except at a club on Saturday night (not ever at WDW) and obviously a bathroom line will never be as long as standby at Peter Pan, so is it something easier to just "get through" if you come across it?

I'd like to have answers ready for someone who might ask those questions in a flippant manner.
Clearly you are not female. It is rare in any busy place to not have to wait in a line for the bathroom. Malls. Theme parks. Airports. Movie theaters when it's busy.
 

bubbles1812

Well-Known Member
Clearly you are not female. It is rare in any busy place to not have to wait in a line for the bathroom. Malls. Theme parks. Airports. Movie theaters when it's busy.
Yeah, I’ll echo this. It’s rare at Disney when I don’t have to wait for the bathroom. It’s why I’ve only been in the Tangled ones like twice. The ones coming out of Splash Mountain are my favorite. (That probably sounds pathetic to say I have a favorite bathroom but hey, it’s one of the few where I generally don’t have to wait).

I really hate busy airport ones and you’re usually just stuck cause they all repeatedly fill back up as planes deboard.
 
I'd like to take that comment and pose it more respectfully to those who have autism or family with autism. (I have a nephew I was told was "on the spectrum" at a young age, but he lives in another state and there was some debate as to whether he actually had autism or not. My brother doesn't talk about it. I haven't asked.)

So, is waiting at the doctor's office different...because it's a different kind of experience? In other words, nobody is excited to get into the doctor's office, so it's not the same as waiting to go on Haunted Mansion? Serious question, not challenging anything, just don't know and would like to understand.

And waiting for the bathroom - first of all, how often does one really have to do that? I've rarely encountered lines at a bathroom except at a club on Saturday night (not ever at WDW) and obviously a bathroom line will never be as long as standby at Peter Pan, so is it something easier to just "get through" if you come across it?

I'd like to have answers ready for someone who might ask those questions in a flippant manner.
Your questions are pretty good ones, I'd like to answer them.

At least for me, things like waiting at a doctor's office are actually extremely different. For one thing, there's not that rush of jittery adrenaline of "I'm doing something that is loud and outside and potentially frightening", since doctor's offices are typically designed to be calming... or at least not necessarily agitating.
For another, typically in a doctor's office, everyone is seated. Sitting is easier for me, at least mentally, than standing when waiting because I can focus all of my attention on whatever is in my hands. Standing, especially in a crowd or line, I have to keep looking around to make sure I'm not missing anything.
For a third, lines at Disney, even with a Fastpass (the 'interior' lines, like at the Tower and the Rock'n'Roller Coaster), are extremely crowded. They're noisy, they're hot, they're sweaty, they're just sitting there. Half the time, everyone is as close as they can be without touching, in my experience. Sweat feels rough and wet to me, it's a very unpleasant feeling, and in the Florida heat, it's a constant. The constant droning of conversations gives me a headache, occasionally abated by conversing with people around me but only if they're in a conversing mood and speak English (about 30% of the time they don't). I can't hold onto my own comfort stuffed animal to focus on it because I'll generally miss the line moving, and people don't usually understand that it's a comfort item (plus, there are a lot of children at Disney, and small children like grabbing things, so I tend to just leave it in the bag).

Waiting for the bathroom isn't a problem for me specifically, since it's really kind of a break from the hecticness (is that a word?) of Disney. Granted, unmitigated disaster is right... women do typically have longer bathroom lines than men... but for me those lines aren't too bad, again because it's kind of a break.

If you've got any other questions, I'd be glad to answer!

Also, some other notes:
  • Playing on my phone does help, but I've noticed that it likes to die more quickly in the Florida sun than when I'm indoors. And a lot of ride queues wind through outdoor areas. So that's not always a viable option.
  • Having already gone on something helps a lot because then I already know what I'm going to expect, so the anticipation doesn't get to me as much.
  • If it's short enough, I can actually go through most regular lines (though I wish more rides, like the Tower, had single rider queues).
  • Single rider queues work wonders for me specifically because generally, though they can be as long as a regular one, they're a lot faster and I can occasionally just get right through and into the pre-show (or even skip the pre-show entirely, if there is one).
  • Problems, for me, start to arise when I'm stuck in a crowd of people for more than 30 minutes. I can generally deal with the issues until 45 minutes, but around an hour is when it gets iffy and I start to panic. I can't wait in a ride line if it's longer than an hour to get on, so I have to use my DAS for those. And with the DAS, if the wait is an hour or more, I tend to start having stomach issues and needing to get some food in my system to calm it down.
  • To be honest, I tend to do much better at Universal than I do at Disney. Love Disney to death, but Universal has more single-rider lines, most of the lines I tend to use are primarily inside and AC'd (MIB, Escape from Gringotts, Transformers for the single rider line, Race Through New York, Revenge of the Mummy) and the ones that aren't have overhangs and lots of small industrial fans to keep cool, and tbh the quick-service food is so much better at Universal than at Disney (they need to step their game up there).
  • It's easier to converse with people in lines if I know a lot of trivia about the rides (like all the Tower trivia I memorized to keep myself calm that first time I went on the Tower (evil tower u r doomed)), though I typically let them know that I get jittery and need to talk in lines to keep calm as well.
  • Related and surprisingly, it's easier for me to talk to random strangers in ride lines than it is for me to talk to people I know.
Not all of us are like this, but these are my experiences. I have other stuff I can say about the topic, but I've already made this post way longer than I intended to.
 

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
Just thought of something that should have been in my reply about doctor's offices. Waiting in the WAITING ROOM is no problem. Waiting in the exam rooms is a whole other animal. It almost becomes a "let's see how long it'll take for mom to lose it" contest.

Touching the blood pressure equipment - check.
Using the scale/checking height 20 times - check.
Trying to touch the jar of tongue depressors - check.
Getting 80 glasses of water - check.
Destroying the paper cover on the exam table - check.
Talking way louder than necessary - check.
Both talking at the same time and throwing a million questions at me so I can't possibly answer - check.
Messing with the window blinds to see if they can see our truck - check.
Spinning on/fighting over the stool the doc sits on when they're in the room - triple-check.

I spend the majority of the time in the exam room prior to the doctor entering trying to keep them both away from the equipment and to keep them from winding each other up and getting to ridiculous levels of volume when they talk. I seriously ADORE our pediatrician's office. I have two favorite doctors there who are kind, funny, warm, and have a really good understanding of autism and the challenges it can present. They've even asked how I was doing on occasion.

ETA: Visiting each others' schools is another thing where we're pretty much guaranteed to have "excitement" issues...I have to keep a close eye on my youngest because holy hell that kid is fast, and safety goes out the window. And this is what I meant when I said that WDW levels them out and calms them - there's none of the "winding up" or over-excitement that is present in certain situations in the real world.
 
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Just thought of something that should have been in my reply about doctor's offices. Waiting in the WAITING ROOM is no problem. Waiting in the exam rooms is a whole other animal. It almost becomes a "let's see how long it'll take for mom to lose it" contest.

Touching the blood pressure equipment - check.
Using the scale/checking height 20 times - check.
Trying to touch the jar of tongue depressors - check.
Getting 80 glasses of water - check.
Destroying the paper cover on the exam table - check.
Talking way louder than necessary - check.
Both talking at the same time and throwing a million questions at me so I can't possibly answer - check.
Messing with the window blinds to see if they can see our truck - check.
Spinning on/fighting over the stool the doc sits on when they're in the room - triple-check.

I spend the majority of the time in the exam room prior to the doctor entering trying to keep them both away from the equipment and to keep them from winding each other up and getting to ridiculous levels of volume when they talk. I seriously ADORE our pediatrician's office. I have two favorite doctors there who are kind, funny, warm, and have a really good understanding of autism and the challenges it can present. They've even asked how I was doing on occasion.

ETA: Visiting each others' schools is another thing where we're pretty much guaranteed to have "excitement" issues...I have to keep a close eye on my youngest because holy hell that kid is fast, and safety goes out the window. And this is what I meant when I said that WDW levels them out and calms them - there's none of the "winding up" or over-excitement that is present in certain situations in the real world.
Thinking about what you've written, waiting rooms are fine for me, but I also have issues with the actual exam rooms. My issues with them right now are more like a panic than any sort of over-excitement, but (and I'd have to ask my mom) I think I was probably just like your boys when I was little too.

But I've noticed that being in places like Disney (and, by extension, Universal) helps to keep me calm too. I wonder what it is about them. They're big, loud, colorful, distracting, and most of all crowded... all things that cause me problems in the real world... but for some reason they make me feel more comfortable. I think it's because Disney and Universal aren't the real world.
I don't know your family and I don't mean to presume anything, but I'm wondering if maybe it's the same with your boys. Disney isn't really the real world, so maybe they're more comfortable there even with all the crowds and stimuli that would normally cause issues because of that.
 

Hcalvert

Well-Known Member
Well, the mother lost her anonimity because in the court papers it says she is the president of the "Autism Society of Greater Orlando" and a simple Google search reveals her identity. Maybe they should have redacted some of the information for public review.
 
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ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
Well, the mother lost her anonimity because in the court papers it says she is the president of the "Autism Center of Greater Orlando" and a simple Google search reveals her identity. Maybe they should have redacted some of the information for public review.
OH DEAR LORD. As an autism parent I'm stunned that she'd support such a lawsuit...it would be horrible if the system reverted back to the old way.
 

NotTheOne

Well-Known Member
Well, the mother lost her anonimity because in the court papers it says she is the president of the "AutismSociety of Greater Orlando" and a simple Google search reveals her identity. Maybe they should have redacted some of the information for public review.

She lost her anonymity long before this...in the decision, it states that despite asking for anonymity during the case, she gave an interview about the case (using her name) and posted to the Autism Society of Greater Orlando Facebook page during the trial (also using her name).

And despite testifying in court that she was only seeking these accommodations for her son, she posted on Facebook (per the court decision) that if she won, she would spread the news far and wide until all autistic guests got the same accommodations.
 

NotTheOne

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately neither “impact on others” nor “easy to abuse” are not general defenses against not doing something under the current law. The business really has to argue about the impractically or high burden the accommodation would cause... not that its somehow uneven, or would impact others.

The law is intentionally written to ensure the least burden possible on the disabled person as the access is intended to be there by default... not as something the person is supposed to prove constantly or request specially. Obviously there are practical constraints on that... but thats where the law is coming from. And of course... the bigger the “gain” one can get from the accommodation... the greater the temptation for people to abuse it. It is this inherent temptation that puts businesses in such a bad spot and we’re still waiting for some landmark case to really establish a practical “line in the sand..” that puts a cap on these kinds of accommodations in public waiting or venue situations. Im hoping this case is it.

Congress really created this quagmire when they expanded the law to mental disabilities and rework the law to combat the limitations the courts had put on the original ada.

The "impact to others" is what helped Disney win on the impact to operations argument...they were able to show the data of what wait times would increase to for non-DAS holders if the accommodations were granted across the board to anyone who requested them, and then showed how that would negatively impact enjoyment for others, decrease the likelihood of returning for future visits, thus impacting their business model.
 

Rider

Well-Known Member
Reading through it now but some of the footnotes are interesting too. Like the plaintiff wasn't able to get their expert witness to appear with 5 months notice and tried to make a last minute swap under the judge's nose:

A.L.’s neurologist, Dr. Rathinam, did not testify because she was allegedly unavailable for trial, although
A.L. had plenty of time to prepare the case for trial following remand to this Court on November 26, 2018. (Doc. 256).
A.L. filed a Motion to Stay Action Pending Trial of Similar Actions in Another District (Doc. 257), which the Court
denied on September 10, 2019 and set the case for a bench trial on A.L.’s request for injunctive relief to commence
more than five months later, on February 18, 2020. (Doc. 259). The parties were subsequently ordered to file the
amended Joint Pretrial Statement and trial briefs by November 26, 2019. (Doc. 267). Despite having five months
warning with a date certain for trial on February 18, 2020, A.L. waited until February 6, 2020, twelve days before
trial, to file a notice to take the deposition of Dr. Rathinam, which was stricken. (Docs. 288, 293).

Without timely seeking leave of court, A.L. attempted to substitute a newly-retained expert witness (Lila
Kimel, Ph.D.) at the last minute by listing her in the Joint Pretrial Statement, even though he had previously designated
a different expert that Disney had deposed and sought to exclude (Dr. James) because she was mistaken on some of
the details of A.L.’s December 2013 visit. (See Doc. 277). The Court struck A.L.’s unauthorized and untimely “Second
Amended Witness List” substituting Dr. Kimel, filed a week after the parties’ Joint Pretrial Statement. (Id.). It is not
appropriate for A.L. in his post-trial brief to rely on a portion of dicta in the Eleventh Circuit’s opinion which
mentioned Dr. James’ 2016 testimony to demonstrate a potential issue of fact (see Doc. 343 at 11 (citing A.L., 900
F.3d at 1285-86), when A.L. did not have any expert testify at the trial. Moreover, a good deal of the cited testimony
from Dr. James was generalizations about individuals with autism and the Court must reach a decision about A.L.’s
individualized behavioral characteristics.
 

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