As of February, guests will no longer be able to see a trained Disney Artist who is d

barnum42

New Member
HennieBogan1966 said:
It's certainly not the popular view, but a necessary one.
Thus said Hitler during the holocaust. I can understand his "need" to eradicate millions of people he did not like. But that does not mean he was right.

This argument will just go around in circles:

Barnum: Gee, it would be great if people were treated decently.

Hennie: It does not matter how badly you treat people as long as it make business sense.

Repeat ad nausium.


Thank you and goodnight :wave:
 

HennieBogan1966

Account Suspended
Barnum

First I can't tell you in how many ways your comments are offensive to me. I would ask for an apology from you, but clearly, it would be a collosal waste of my time. You don't know me, and I don't appreciate the comparison to someone like that. To say that your comments are classless and ignorant would be an understatement. Nor did I even hint that people should be treated unfairly or indecently. What I DID say was that sometimes tough decisions have to be made. I also said I didn't agree with the decision, but understood it.

Now, if you can't use some class when addressing someone on these boards, then please keep your comments to yourself.

And to the site administrator. (Before you intervene). NO, I won't take this to private messaging. I didn't lob the first grenade, and was compared to Hitler in public, so I WILL respond in public. Sorry if that's not acceptable to the members. But maybe we should examine the person who made the comments.

Thanks to those of you who will understand where I am coming from on this. I apologize to you out there for having to address this situation, but I felt I had no choice in this matter.
 

Mr. Eggz

New Member
Okay, Let's try to keep this constructive...

I want to say thanks for the great Walt quotes to Shakes and General Grizz. I'd like to offer one from the man Diane Disney Miller calls, "The closest thing we have to an heir to Walt Disney."

"At Pixar we sand the underside of the drawers." - John Lasseter

I think this is consistent with Walt's philosophy about putting the quality in, even if most Guests don't notice. Here's a guy who trained as a traditional animator under Oli Johnston and Frank Thomas and worked as a Disney Animator (and a Jungle Cruise skipper at DL) and wanted nothing more than to work at Disney where they care about quality. But when he got there he found out they didn't care about quality as much anymore. So he left and co-founded Pixar. He and co-founder Ed Catmull went back and looked at memos Walt wrote in the 1940s about how to run a business, and created Pixar based on them. Pixar is a successful business today, which is bulit on Walt's philosophies. So, someone please tell me how Walt's way of doing things doesnt work today, and all the MBA's can run it better?

It's not about 2D vs 3D, it's about quality and passion for what you do. Walt said, "Give the guests everything you can give them...and I believe this is a good buiness policy...and I think the quality will out...after Disney." "After Disney" meaning after he dies.

I think the quality will out. And I think Disney can afford to give the guests real artists. By the way, the first step in making a 3D film...storyboarding. in other words...drawing.
 

barnum42

New Member
HennieBogan1966 said:
First I can't tell you in how many ways your comments are offensive to me.
Now you know how other people feel about a number of your posts.
HennieBogan1966 said:
I would ask for an apology from you, but clearly, it would be a collosal waste of my time.
Correct, at last you got something right in this thread :lol:
HennieBogan1966 said:
You don't know me, and I don't appreciate the comparison to someone like that.
I did not compare YOU to Hitler, I compared the cop out excuse of it being OK to treat people like effluent for business reasons to Hitler.
HennieBogan1966 said:
And to the site administrator. (Before you intervene). NO, I won't take this to private messaging. I didn't lob the first grenade
To this I will quote an earlier post from this very thread:

ClemsonTigger said:
Hennie, this is the third thread tonight where you had to resort to personal attacks in an effort to make your point...... I find it very difficult to understand when people like Barnum (or Grizz) with long track records of quality contributions...or anyone else on this board for that matter are treated with that level of disrespect.
You have not so much lobbed a grenade, as as sent a full volley of artillery :rolleyes:

Which makes it all the funnier that you then post this:

HennieBogan1966 said:
Now, if you can't use some class when addressing someone on these boards, then please keep your comments to yourself.
ROTFLMAO

HennieBogan1966 said:
But maybe we should examine the person who made the comments.
Here I am folks :wave:
 

HennieBogan1966

Account Suspended
Allow me to explain the difference between a personal attack and someone who makes their point with facts and with passion. I WOULD BE THE ONE WHO MAKES HIS POINTS WITH FACTS AND PASSION. YOU WOULD BE THE ONE WHO MAKES HIS POINTS WITH PERSONAL ATTACKS.

As it has been made clear to me that you are indeed a classless individual (yes that's an attack. what's good for the goose....), again I realize that I won't be receiving an apology from you. And that's okay. I should expect nothing less from an individual like yourself. (again, an attack). And yes you DID make the comparison to Hitler. First of all, to even MILDLY equate a conversation on people losing a job, to that of what HITLER did is just BEYOND ridiculous. But again, a liberal like yourself would do something like that. You can't make your case so you just resort to those types of tactics. I started off trying to be civil in this thread regarding this situation. And for that I was, hmmmm, better not use that word. Anyway let's just say that I was challenged on my views. Funny thing is, I continued to say that I didn't agree with what Disney was doing, but that I understood the need for them to do what they are doing in this situation. I even asked questions with regard to those being displaced if they were being offered other positions within the company. And you know what? They were. So, again, I made the point that Disney didn't even HAVE to do that much. Was it what the animators wanted? Of course not. But they WERE offered something. Seems to me that helping provide MAGIC to guests should be special no matter what capacity that is. Or is it about the money? Hmmmm....

So, since you have taken the opportunity to make this personal and public I will continue to do the same. I call on the Site Administrator to publicly call you out, as he has done to me, for your CLASSLESS, and IGNORANT statements.

Again, allow me to apologize to others on this site who have to read this. I really am trying not to do these things anymore, but it seems some insist on poking the tiger with a stick. On several occasions over the last 2 weeks I have ignored some comments that were made and didn't engage the individuals, due to some of the feedback I have gotten from people. In this case, however, I feel am completely justified in responding. I'm not sure how others out there feel about THIS particular situation, but I would hope that any of you would have responded the same way given the comments that have been made.

Thanks for your patience and understanding in this matter.


Brian
 

HennieBogan1966

Account Suspended
Mr. Eggz

You are right in saying that the animation starts with storyboarding. And I agree with your comments regarding doing things the way Mr. Disney would want them done, would be a welcome site in the parks. But all of my comments regarding the business side of this situation reflect what I see in business today, and not how Walt Disney himself may have done it differently.

I can't say, having never met him, how he might do things today, versus the early 70's, let's say. And many have argued the point with me that if he were alive today, and running things the way he wanted, that he would have gone bankrupt by now. This due to his history of details and spending on projects. I'm not saying those are bad qualities but merely that maybe he would have adjusted the way he did things today, given current economics.

I would love to have back the old days, but I'm not sure they would fit in todays theme parks, or would be AS popular with todays guests. That is speculation, but if we look at todays society, and moreover, todays kids, they have different entertainment needs than we did as kids. I think Disney has done a great job in continuing to move and change with the times. Yes, they've made some mistakes, but we all do. Overall, I think they have done all they could to compete, given all that they have on their plate on a daily basis.
 

ClemsonTigger

Naturally Grumpy
Again, allow me to apologize to others on this site who have to read this. I really am trying not to do these things anymore, but it seems some insist on poking the tiger with a stick. On several occasions over the last 2 weeks I have ignored some comments that were made and didn't engage the individuals, due to some of the feedback I have gotten from people. In this case, however, I feel am completely justified in responding. I'm not sure how others out there feel about THIS particular situation, but I would hope that any of you would have responded the same way given the comments that have been made.

Hennie,
I believe it is time for you to reassess your approach and your contributions here. If you look over this one exchange (which is just an example of a number of others), you appear to use an approach that is not taken well by many other posters.

You have your opinion that you are welcome to, but repeating it and escalating it is not a way to win an argument. Furthermore, taking this to a very personal level does not benefit you or others involved.

Suffice it to say that the majority on this thread don't give a rat's a** about accounting and financial hair splitting. The vote is for artistry, creativity and imagination which is the foundation of what Disney is. You cannot put a dollar amount on that. In particular with this situation, we are talking a decision that means fractions of pennies to the bottom line, therefore is a draw.

I ask you personally to drop this dialog, and to seriously evaluate your approach on other threads (when you start getting this type of resistance it's a good clue! Currently you are not doing yourself or this site any good. :(

Edit addition: Please remember that this thread is about a handful of talented artists that, as the last vestige of Disney's origins have been treated poorly and disposed of. This is about people and heritage, not the Disney profit margin.
 

HennieBogan1966

Account Suspended
Clemson

barnum42 said:
Thus said Hitler during the holocaust. I can understand his "need" to eradicate millions of people he did not like. But that does not mean he was right.

This argument will just go around in circles:

Barnum: Gee, it would be great if people were treated decently.

Hennie: It does not matter how badly you treat people as long as it make business sense.

Repeat ad nausium.


Thank you and goodnight :wave:
I think if you will take a look at this quote from Barnum, I think you'll understand why this has escalated to the point that it has. I DID NOT start this one. On the contrary, I have tried to remain very fair in my comments, UP TO THIS POINT. It's funny how some CAN personally attack me, and that's NOT an attack. I can just disagree with their view and somehow I AM attacking them. Seems pretty convenient to me. Have I been too passionate on other threads? Yes, I have. And I believe that I have paid a price for some of those comments. Am I perfect? Not even close. And guess what. NO ONE IS PERFECT.

So, while I respect your views in THIS particular instance, I hope you will understand, given the previous comments made by Barnum, why I am upset about this. I even posted a second response to Mr. Eggz, in order to return the conversation BACK TO the subject at hand.

Again, sorry for airing this laundry, but again, felt it necessary.

Please let's move back on topic.
 

ClemsonTigger

Naturally Grumpy
Hennie,
That is just the reason to take this to PM or anywhere OUTSIDE this forum. This is not a jury and we will not declare a winner.

We definitely don't want to have to witness this type of exchange. I hope you realize that. :eek:
 

HennieBogan1966

Account Suspended
I do realize that, but I WILL NOT allow someone to make those comments to me PUBLICILY and then respond PRIVATELY. I'm not looking for people to come to my defense, although I do appreciate that thought. I just think that if someone is going to make such IGNORANT comments publicly, that they should be called out PUBLICLY.

I apologize to you and others who are tired of this, and I sincerely hope that it ends here.

Thank You for your comments, and insights into my views and how I provide them. I am considering your views carefully and will continue to "adjust" my comments accordingly.

Thanks again,


Brian
 

barnum42

New Member
Hennie - You have a track record of attacking people because they disagree with you, in the past I've let it slide as I can't be arsed to deal with this petty behaviour. I tried to put this topic to bed some time ago, but you just had to keep gnawing at the bone and try to throw muck at me and make me out to be the bad guy.

I have utmost respect for the majority of posters on this board and will rely on their intelligence to come to their own conclusions about my character and not be swayed by the temper tantrums of someone who does not like it when he can't get his own way.

You may now insult yourself some more by calling me names and having the last word.

Clemson - great post, I am now dropping this dialogue.

:wave:
 

imagineer boy

Well-Known Member
barnum42 said:
Hennie - You have a track record of attacking people because they disagree with you, in the past I've let it slide as I can't be arsed to deal with this petty behaviour. I tried to put this topic to bed some time ago, but you just had to keep gnawing at the bone and try to throw muck at me and make me out to be the bad guy.

I have utmost respect for the majority of posters on this board and will rely on their intelligence to come to their own conclusions about my character and not be swayed by the temper tantrums of someone who does not like it when he can't get his own way.

You may now insult yourself some more by calling me names and having the last word.

Clemson - great post, I am now dropping this dialogue.

:wave:

You tell him Barnum! Way to go! :wave:

Hennie, people have these things called OPINIONS. Ever heard of those? no need to attack people if their's is different from yours. I did however have the chance of meeting hennie, and I took a picture of him. Here you go:

http://imageupload.org//images/5HwNZv.jpg
 

HennieBogan1966

Account Suspended
Barnum

HennieBogan1966 said:
I'm not sure if I understand exactly how this would negatively impact the company over the long term. I don't like the idea of doing away with the animators, but again, someone has to take the lead here as it relates to the business side of this situation. If Disney kept everyone on, kept all the rides, and just kept expanding, can you imagine the cost just to go to the parks? I mean operational costs continue to increase, and if the min. wage increases much over the next several years, you can count on the fact that the cost to visit will as well.

I'm in agreement that I don't like the idea. But I completely understand the need sometimes, to downsize for the long term health of the company. And if you have an area where you can do that, then that's what has to be done.
It's certainly not the popular view, but a necessary one.[/QUOTE

Here is the statement which you originally replied to, in which you referenced Hilter in trying to parallel our views. I didnt' make the comments about Hitler, YOU DID!!!! I don't really care what you think about my history, as most of the quotes, statements, and comments get taken out of context, since they tend to disagree with the majority. This isn't about getting my way, and it's' funny YOU would be the one to bring that up. You are NOT engaging me on the issue, but rather trying to somehow impune my character. I remind you that you DON'T KNOW ME!!!! Don't attempt to characterize me based on comments that I may make about Disney subjects. I have tried to continue throughout the entirety of THIS thread to debate the financial issues surrounding the decision that Disney has made. You may try to play the part of victim if you feel it necessary in order to obtain sympathy, but the fact remains that your only answer to me has been "they're all greedy fat cats" if I may paraphrase. Somehow, I don't see that as an intelligent answer to the questions that have been raised and debated on this thread.

May I once again remind you that YOU were the one who made the reference you did. NOT ME. I tried to remain on topic here.

Again, I don't agree with the decision Disney has made, but I understand it. Disney could not afford to keep everyone on forever, continue to expand,
raise pay scales and benefits, and NOT raise prices on everything for the guests. At some point, you HAVE TO examine the cost to the consumer. And cuts have to be made in order to maintain costs that are manageable for EVERYONE.

No, once again, I don't like the top execs. getting the pay and bonuses that they do, but Michael Eisner, and people like him ask for those incentives and pay increases. And guess what, the board gives it to them. Who's truly at fault for that? Let's turn the discussion to who is TRULY at fault here. Those ON THE BOARD AND MICHAEL EISNER. I don't blame people for asking for more pay and benefits. Do you? Is it okay for people at the bottom of the ladder to ask for more, but not those at the top of it? Why? They aren't obligated to make less money just because you or I don't make what they do. It's up to US TO IMPROVE OURSELVES AND TO HAVE THE DESIRE TO WANT MORE OUT OF LIFE.

My Wife has a background in Commercial Art and Marketing, so I can completely understand the passion and heartbreak of those who didn't want to see this day come. Neither did I. But it's a business, and that's why this decision was made. Time will tell if it was the right decision.

Brian
 

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