Any Monorail News?

[Champion]

To use technical jargon, the acronym for such estimates is PIDOOMA.

Oh please, childish insults aren't going to help you at all.

Those numbers are FACT. Look them up yourself if you'd like, they're all over the web.
Vegas numbers are high because of the number of stations in a small area. But WDW needs a TON of stations to make everything work, so its not like they are going to save some big amount over the Vegas cost.

If you're referring to the estimate I gave at the end, well, as I said, I have no presentable facts that I can post to back it up. But the number would be much closer to $100m then to $10m.

 

[ToTBellHop]

Oh please, childish insults aren't going to help you at all.

Those numbers are FACT. Look them up yourself if you'd like, they're all over the web.
Vegas numbers are high because of the number of stations in a small area. But WDW needs a TON of stations to make everything work, so its not like they are going to save some big amount over the Vegas cost.

If you're referring to the estimate I gave at the end, well, as I said, I have no presentable facts that I can post to back it up. But the number would be much closer to $100m then to $10m.

you don't even have to do that--use the documented low end estimate--$50m/mile. They would need well over 20 miles to connect all of the resorts--either a 2nd TTC or massive routes connecting the current TTC to MGM and AK (can you imagine the time wasted going from AK to the TTC and then to MGM?). Connecting all of the parks directy to each other AND adding resort loops would be absurd--easily 50 miles of track required. If we give a ridiculously low estimate of only 20 miles of track being required at a minimum, that's $1b...plus building the stations and 2nd TTC. It's just absurdly expensive and not realistic.

 

[landauh]

It was mentioned that running the monorail to all 4 parks wouldn't work because of different park operating hours.

I would proport, that is precisely why you want the monorail to run to all 4 parks.

You see, right now, if a family that is not staying at a Disney Resort parks their car at Animal Kingdom, spends the beginning of their day there and then park hops over to Magic Kingdom...they have to cut their day short to get back over to Animal Kingdom in time before the buses stop running there, so they can get to their car. Hence, they don't spend the additional hours at Magic Kingdom and end up spending their money for dinner and other recreation possibly off Disney property.

If the monorails ran to all 4 Disney parks, and gave you access to their parking lots until 2 hours after the last park closed, that problem would be eliminated, and Disney could earn the money they are losing right now.

The buses run to all the parks up to one hour after the last park closes. If you parked in DAK you would get a ride back to the lot, but would need to walk to your car. Guests do this every day.

 

[chaggy102]

Heck, I'd settle for Webway People Mover's throughout the grounds.

Now that's the greatest idea I've ever heard....a nice relaxing way to get from park to park...

 

[DisneyExplorer]

Boston busses are becoming better, but they are disgusting, NOTHING like a Disney bus.

I can agree with you on that! lol

 

[mousermerf]

Not that it means anything, but wouldn't the most efficient route be another line originating from Epcot that loops to MGM and AK then back to Epcot - or better yet, if it ran in a shuttle mode?

 

[imagineer boy]

NO!!! NOT ANOTHER MONORAIL THREAD!!! NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

 

[flynnibus]

You see, right now, if a family that is not staying at a Disney Resort parks their car at Animal Kingdom, spends the beginning of their day there and then park hops over to Magic Kingdom...they have to cut their day short to get back over to Animal Kingdom in time before the buses stop running there, so they can get to their car

I think you are trying to come up with a reason.. rather then knowing one exists. Anyone who did what you described would be a fool. There is no reason to take the bus and leaving your car over just driving your car to the other park. The only time that even applies, is when the lots are full, and they redirect parking to other parks... and of course Disney provides transportation in those scenarios.

A more reasonable scenario is someone is at the TTC and MK, and wants to take the Monorail to EPCOT, so they leave their car at TTC, and must come back to it later.. or vise versa.


And as for the earlier post about billions per mile for Monorail.. sounds like Internet Math to the fullest.

Disney's monorail is built
- where they already own the land (no easements to buy)
- there is little to no existing obstructions
- there are few stations to build (you don't have to build a dozen stations at intermediate points)
- the technology already exists (so you are not subsidizing the R&D of the supporting technology)


Vegas's Monorail was built for ~$650 million is almost 4 miles long with 7 stations and has none of the benefits listed above.

The reality is the Monorail is not that great of a transportation technology and its costs vs benefit is what keeps the current Disney from expanding it.

Monorails inherently
- are complex to handle multiple paths (loops and single line are the only effective routes)
- elevated tracks have their own servicing/maintenance problems
- not as heavy duty (load capable) as normal rail lines

Disney would be much better off implementing some other 'new' unique transportation technology rather then trying to keep focusing on monorails. There are plenty of blue-sky ideas in Disney's own films

Or a sort of omnimover system that was segmented with different rates to allow different speeds for longer distance transportation.

 

[Champion]

We aren't saying billions per mile, we are saying billions to complete the system.

As far as 'not a lot of stations'.

You need at least one per resort and park. Three resorts have them, and two parks. That leaves 19 resorts, 2 parks, 2 water parks, and Downtown Disney. Yeah, 24 stations isn't a lot.

That doesn't even take into account the resorts that are really spread out, such as Coronado Springs, where they would need more than one station (hard to go from four bus stops to one monorail stop, you'd be making a lot of people unhappy for having to walk to that stop.)

 

[WDW Monorail]

We aren't saying billions per mile, we are saying billions to complete the system.

As far as 'not a lot of stations'.

You need at least one per resort and park. Three resorts have them, and two parks. That leaves 19 resorts, 2 parks, 2 water parks, and Downtown Disney. Yeah, 24 stations isn't a lot.

That doesn't even take into account the resorts that are really spread out, such as Coronado Springs, where they would need more than one station (hard to go from four bus stops to one monorail stop, you'd be making a lot of people unhappy for having to walk to that stop.)

Why do you need more than one station to service The Dolphin, Swan, Beach/Yacht Club and Boardwalk? Only one would be suffecient for these or at most, two.

 

[Champion]

Why do you need more than one station to service The Dolphin, Swan, Beach/Yacht Club and Boardwalk? Only one would be suffecient for these.

No, one stop isn't sufficient. Yes, they are in the same area. But let me ask you this: If you are staying at the Y&B, a deluxe resort, do you really want to have to walk a half mile or whatever every time you want to get on the monorail, because they put it near Boardwalk? No. Especially when before, all you had to do was go down to the lobby. Just because they are near each other doesn't mean they don't need separate stations. If Disney has determined an area needs its own bus stop, then they would also determine it would need its own monorail station.

This is just another monorail drawback due to WDW's setup. You can't have it stopping 4 times at a resort like busses do.

Unless you are going to propose some other sort of transportation system to get people to the monorail station for the area, in which case you're just adding more cost.

Just laying out and building the system would be expensive enough and difficult enough. Then add in the cost and difficulty of making the system efficient without a large number of transfers between lines and trains to get everywhere, and you're talking about a monumental task.

 

[mousermerf]

I'd say none for any more resorts.

None!!!

Use Epcot, MK/TTC, and AK as hubs. Just run a new line from Epcot to MGM and then to AK.

AKL buses would drop people off at AK, as would the All Stars.

Coronado, Pop, Carribbean, and the DVC group and the Port Orleans resorts would drop people off at Epcot.

Swan/Dolphin/Yacht/Beach/Boardwalk have th option of going to MGM or they can go through Epcot.

MK area resorts goto the TTC.

 

[cloudboy]

Based on projecting the 1971 cost of the monorail onto what it would cost today, and expanding it to a park wide system. Also taking into account the cost of newer monorail systems, such as the one in Vegas.

For instance: Here's one site. http://www.austinmonorail.org/monorail_costs.htm
$87m a mile actual construction cost.

That would be about 23 miles of track. This isn't enough for an entire property monorail. Not to mention that the LV monorail is just a straight line, and not in swampland.
So, if you take the 'should have been' figure on that page, which is $50m, and you add the costs of the necessary turns and sinking pylons and road crossings and such, you would be right back to the $87m number again, which (and I have no facts for this part, but I'm going to state it anyway) would be LOW on what actually happens -- I'd estimate it would cost $100m a mile total for WDW property.

Again, even as you expressed yourself - you are just coming up with estimated data without any real justification for it or understanding of how it works, and then tossing it out as absolute truth - you are essentially telling people this is how much it will cost when it doesn't. YOU ARE THROWING OUT FALSE DATA TO CONVINCE PEOPLE MONORAILS ARE WORSE THAN THEY ARE!


This really gets to me because it has happened so many times, and the truth doesn't really matter to anyone because they get their way!

We have argued these figures time and time again. There is no 20 miles of track - even if you did connect every resort by monorail (which you wouldn't do). Switching is a common and efficient thing now. There are monorails which hold vastly more people than the current Disney models do.

You can't go by what Disney did before - that is a very poorly designed system, which was designed more as an attraction and for aesthetic reasons than for practicality. Technology has made leaps and bounds since then, even if the US has never built another monorail, other countries have continued to do so. You don't have to connect ever resort to every park - that is inefficient and confusing. Disney resorts and parks are all laid out (intentionally or not) in a nice fashion where a few simple lines can connect all points.

I don't really expect Disney to ever build another monorail - the fans won't let them. But I do not like to have all this false information thrown out, convincing people hat monorails are inefficient and complicated when they are not, and people take these biases with them when deciding on real applications of real transit needs in our cities.

 

[Champion]

I'd say none for any more resorts.

None!!!

Use Epcot, MK/TTC, and AK as hubs. Just run a new line from Epcot to MGM and then to AK.

AKL buses would drop people off at AK, as would the All Stars.

Coronado, Pop, Carribbean, and the DVC group and the Port Orleans resorts would drop people off at Epcot.

Swan/Dolphin/Yacht/Beach/Boardwalk have th option of going to MGM or they can go through Epcot.

MK area resorts goto the TTC.

Wait, so if I'm staying at AKL, and want to go to MK, I have to get on a bus, which goes to AK. Then I go and get in line (which is HUGE because its for three parks) and get on a monorail, which, depending on direction, either stops at MGM, and then Epcot, and then TTC or to the TTC first. There, I transfer again to the MK monorail, after waiting in line again. And finally I arrive at the MK?

What a great idea! Extremely efficient.

Since we're running the busses anyway, why don't we just run them to the parks and save the stupidity of two transfers and a roundabout route?

 

[Champion]

Again, even as you expressed yourself - you are just coming up with estimated data without any real justification for it or understanding of how it works, and then tossing it out as absolute truth - you are essentially telling people this is how much it will cost when it doesn't. YOU ARE THROWING OUT FALSE DATA TO CONVINCE PEOPLE MONORAILS ARE WORSE THAN THEY ARE!


This really gets to me because it has happened so many times, and the truth doesn't really matter to anyone because they get their way!

We have argued these figures time and time again. There is no 20 miles of track - even if you did connect every resort by monorail (which you wouldn't do). Switching is a common and efficient thing now. There are monorails which hold vastly more people than the current Disney models do.

You can't go by what Disney did before - that is a very poorly designed system, which was designed more as an attraction and for aesthetic reasons than for practicality. Technology has made leaps and bounds since then, even if the US has never built another monorail, other countries have continued to do so. You don't have to connect ever resort to every park - that is inefficient and confusing. Disney resorts and parks are all laid out (intentionally or not) in a nice fashion where a few simple lines can connect all points.

I don't really expect Disney to ever build another monorail - the fans won't let them. But I do not like to have all this false information thrown out, convincing people hat monorails are inefficient and complicated when they are not, and people take these biases with them when deciding on real applications of real transit needs in our cities.

How exactly would you make an efficient system without running it to the resorts? You can't. If you follow the belief that one transfer is the most people will want to do, you can't do it without running the monorail to all of the resorts.

As far as 20 miles of track being too much. I think you should consult a map of WDW and see how spread out everything is. Remember that for every mile you go, you have to come back that same mile.

I don't want to see the monorail expanded ever. Not even for the cost, but because it isn't the right system for WDW guest flow. Big crowds at certain times and no crowds at others doesn't take well to a system where you can't add and remove vehicles at a moments notice.
However, if they ever do it, they better not do it half-assed and make you transfer from A to B to C to finally get to your destination, and go all the way that you can get from A to C with only one ride.

As the bulldog said, even if you just take the low end number of $50m and use that, you'd be unable to keep the cost under a billion dollars. The Vegas line, with all its costs, was $650m for FOUR MILES. This isn't me making up numbers or BSing or anything of the sort. Thats what it cost. Fact. For that same $650m, I'm giving you a thirteen mile stretch, three times longer than that. That is certainly not a number that is unreasonable, given that its under 3x the factual rate.

Now, do I believe that it would cost a lot more than $50m a mile? Yes. However, I'm not basing my argument on that, so you shouldn't be either.

 

[mousermerf]

Champion, before you act all high and mighty..

How does one get to Epcot from the Grand Floridian?

How do you go from the Contemporary to MK?

Both involve indirect routes and possible transfers. Going from AKL to AK would be the short bus trip. Going to MK, the furthest park, would be the most complicated, but still only involve changing from train to train 2 times.

And waiting? Since when?

To make you really happy, they could have the Epcot loop turn around and goto MGM then AK and double back. Thus the 1 transfer that has always existest for the monorail resorts.

Really, Epcot Northbound (TTC) and Epcot Southbound (AK and MGM) would not be that hard for people to figure out.

At the TTC it's be marked "Epcot Southbound with continuing service to MGM and AK)

At MGM, marked AK Express, continuing service to Epcot Station and the TTC

At AK, marked Epcot Northbound, continuing service to the TTC. You'd transfer at Epcot Station if you wanted the fastest route to MGM but could stay on board if you wanted to.

 

[Bratstarman]

Champion, before you act all high and mighty..

How does one get to Epcot from the Grand Floridian?

How do you go from the Contemporary to MK?

Both involve indirect routes and possible transfers. Going from AKL to AK would be the short bus trip. Going to MK, the furthest park, would be the most complicated, but still only involve changing from train to train 2 times.

And waiting? Since when?

To make you really happy, they could have the Epcot loop turn around and goto MGM then AK and double back. Thus the 1 transfer that has always existest for the monorail resorts.

Merf - not worth arguing with this guy. He begins with a conclusion and then develops "facts" to support it.

 

[Champion]

Champion, before you act all high and mighty..

How does one get to Epcot from the Grand Floridian?

How do you go from the Contemporary to MK?

Both involve indirect routes and possible transfers. Going from AKL to AK would be the short bus trip. Going to MK, the furthest park, would be the most complicated, but still only involve changing from train to train 2 times.

And waiting? Since when?

To make you really happy, they could have the Epcot loop turn around and goto MGM then AK and double back. Thus the 1 transfer that has always existest for the monorail resorts.

Oh I forgot, no one can question you or you will take offense. Sorry about that.

They run a bus to Epcot from the GF. You don't have to transfer if you don't want to.

Contemp to MK is a direct route. I know what you're saying though, and you misunderstand the idea of an indirect route.

Going from AKL -> AK -> Epcot -> TTC -> MK is an indirect route. Just because you have to wait at a stop doesn't make it indirect, it just makes it take forever. How long do you think doing it your way would take? It would be well over an hour, especially in the morning. Just doing the MK -> TTC -> Epcot dance usually takes 30 minutes, from gate to gate.

Waiting? Are you serious? How many people do you think would be in line to get on that monorail since its servicing FOUR PARKS? You're collecting thousands of people at one location to get on, and then you're putting them all into the same vehicle to go to different locations. There are already waits to get on the monorail with only the resorts and TTC that it services now. Now multiply that exponentially due to having another 20ish resorts worth of guests trying to get on the same train.

Again. Why create this elaborate system of train transfers when there is nothing wrong with the current transportation system? Saying "going to MK will only require two transfers" is great, but I can go from AKL to MK without a single transfer right now. Which is more efficient? Its obvious. If they are going to do the system, they would go all the way, with full service to all the resorts. Maybe one transfer at a new TTC or such.

Something like this:

Old Epcot line would be taken out of service, using as much track as possible in the new line to come.
Bus from your resort to either the old TTC (MK) or to a new TTC (Epcot, MGM, DAK).
One line from the new TTC goes to both Epcot and MGM.
One line goes to DAK.
A third line goes between the two TTCs, to facilitate park hopping between MK and the other resorts.

This would only require one transfer per guest. You add in the extras to the lines (water parks, DTD) wherever the closest monorail comes to them. Park hopping would still only require one transfer per guest as well.

The problem with this is that its still less efficient then the buses. You would still need the same number of buses and drivers, as well as more monorail pilots, in addition to the monorail cost.

 

[Champion]

Merf - not worth arguing with this guy. He begins with a conclusion and then develops "facts" to support it.

I supplied information to back up my statements. I haven't seen you or anyone who says the numbers are wrong do anything to refute them.

But I'M the one without the facts.

 

[imagineer boy]

Champion is starting to remind me of a certain blue friend...