Any Monorail Expansion Updates?

[Montyboy]

If all 12 monorails run for 18 hours each day, they would require 29,808KWH for propulsion.

This number does not take in to account the fact that not all 12 trains for for 18 hours. What also must be factored is that the propulsion [regenerative] braking system which dissipates energy to resistor banks.

Yeah, I came up with that number as well. In which case Disney would need a system ten time the size of Google's. This is a great design exersize. We would need the actual draw to size the array (and power storage would be a nightmare.)

DC motors typically can draw 200% starting torque, but there is a time limit to how often they can be started because of heating, so I would expect that the 300kilowatts full time is pretty conservative.

Having said all that. It would be nice to sit in a monorail seat and know there isn't a coal fired boiler balsting away just to move me around.

 

[WDW Monorail]

Is there an electrical engineer in the house? Anyone? Anyone? :lookaroun

Oh flynnibus, oh flynnibus. Where art thou.

Not to discredit Montyboy as he is an engineer as well.

 

[Montyboy]

Yes it is my "opinion" based on what I see elsewhere. As large as the google array is it still will only supply less than half of the buildings needs. Also, I am not sure how massive currrent draws would effect the system not to mention all the other systems the monorails use (as WDW Monorail mentions). So while you claim to be offering an objective math based conclusion, since you have not calculated those variables into your equation, I submit you are also offering an opinion. :lookaroun

Is there an electrical engineer in the house? Anyone? Anyone? :lookaroun

Okay, double the size to account for the AC and ancillary equipment. My point is that there is enough space for a solar array to power the monorail system... not that it is a good idea.

I am an engineer, and size motors all the time. Power systems can be pretty complex. My company has installed grinding mill motors so large that the power company asked to be notified when we start them.

 

[jt04]

Okay, double the size to account for the AC and ancillary equipment. My point is that there is enough space for a solar array to power the monorail system... not that it is a good idea.

I am an engineer, and size motors all the time. Power systems can be pretty complex. My company has installed grinding mill motors so large that the power company asked to be notified when we start them.

Sorry I did not know you were an engineer. I thought you were a college math wiz or something. Thanks for participating in the conversation. This forum needs all the engineers it can get.

 

[s8film40]

Okay, let's do the math. Four 100Hp motors per train is 300kW. 12 trains for 18 hours a day is 64,800 kWh. Orlando recveives 5 to 5.5 kWh/m^2 per day of solar energy average. Solar arrays are 20% efficient, so we can use 1 kWh/m^2, or 64,800 square meters (a square less than 300 meters on a side.) And this is for all of the trains running flat out.

I wouldn't use solar energy for this application, but I also don't want the facts to get in the way of opinions.

Okay I'm not going to get into the math of all this but just to clarify.

•There are 8 DC motors per train.

•The motors run on 600 VDC

•During the peak of acceleration the monorail uses between 1500 and 2000 amps.

•There are 14 air conditioners each have a 84,000 btu/hr cooling capacity.

•All the interior lighting has been converted to LED so that probably doesn't factor in much.

Hope this helps have fun factoring that all in.

 

[Rob562]

I think the bottom line of this discussion is that it would be very difficult (if not impossible) to make the monorail system 100% solar-powered. But, that doesn't mean that Disney shouldn't consider installing solar arrays on-property to offset their power needs... Many alternative energy sources operate this way, especially those at private homes. They're hooked into the main power lines such that if they generate MORE power than the home needs, it feeds it back into the grid (and actually turns the electric meter backwards).
Though there's few sources that would actually do this (a mini hydroelectric generator running off an on-site stream is one). At most, it would just slow down the meter on the energy entering the home. Even having 25% of the monorail system run on solar power would be a big improvement.

My office operates a large warehouse. It's a very energy-intensive building, as the warehouse has lots of HVAC equipment running 24/7 to keep the climate at very controlled archival conditions. The building management people are in the process of looking into installing solar panels on the roof of the warehouse to offset some of the power consumption. Though some of the things they're having to work out is what to do during winter, as we're in the Northeast.
It's part of our company's overall push for "green" technologies in their buildings. Many parts of our warehouse switched over from sodium-vapor lights that used to run constantly 12 hours a day, to occupancy-sensor flourescent lights that really cut down on our power bill.

Oh, and in everyone's calculations on the monorails, I don't think they ever have all 12 trains running at one time (not even sure that would be possible). At peak times I think they have 9 or 10 running (usually 3 on each beam), perhaps 11 on the super-insane peak crowd days like Christmas and New Years.

-Rob

 

[gsimpson]

I read on another board that was having some heavy discussions about all the up coming additions to DHS that they were thinking of connecting via Monorail to the Epcot parking lot so that they could take out a good portion of the DHS' parking lot and expanding DHS into part of its former parking lot.

 

[Montyboy]

One last thought on solar power

The best application for solar power in the parks is probably the water parks. The pumps use a lot of electricity, but don't start and stop as often as monorail motors.

Disney is a great test location for new technologies.

 

[jt04]

Florida is not the best test ground for solar or wind. Personally I would hate to see Disney spend much at WDW on solar as it just wouldn't provide much bang for the buck. I would rather see them put money into the parks. Let some other places like college campuses or government buildings invest and test that stuff. It isn't a good business decision for Disney. Although they seem willing to adopt green technology where it makes good business sense.

 

[Spyne]

While it would be cool to see, I just don't see the monorail expanding anytime soon. It would take a lot of work to incorporate new tracks for it to possibly go to Disney's Hollywood Studios and Disney's Animal Kingdom, for example.

While I'd welcome it very much, I doubt that's something even on Disney's radar right now.

 

[bjlc57]

major difference between initial cost and add on costs..

One. . Disney has already spent the brunt of the cost of a monorail. They have a hanger and changing station and the original monorails and vehicles.

so now, all they have to do is build track. Not buy land, another building, or what not. just build more track. and from what I understand the FOOTERS have been in place for many years. that the layout is there.. the footers are there.

so the cost per mile is substantially less then a start up monorail or a major expansion. may be you add one or two more vehicles but all the rest is just track.

and say what you want, but WDW has had the monorail track since it opened and I have never heard of it cracking or going down once since the opening of the park. So this eliminates the "unstable ground" propaganda.. if the ground was this "unstable" then DISNEY would have shut down the monorail years ago.

and right now, with the cost of gas, and pollution, monorail expansion is the way to go. Plus now you are going "first class" which is what WDW is all about. and not riding in some stupid bus like a kid going to school.

 

[WDW Monorail]

/\

It is not that simple.

 

[marni1971]

and from what I understand the FOOTERS have been in place for many years. that the layout is there.. the footers are there..

Urban myth I`m afraid. The story of footers below ground level between Land and Imag is just a story - apart from the fact Soarin's transfer structure is in the way the Studios line was to have branched off north of The Seas. The LBV line - originally projected between Horizons and Energy - was later moved to the parking lot to run north then east. Why do that with foundations in place?

What was interesting is after the EPCOT Line was built WED purchased and kept the beam and tower molds ready for the LBV line.

 

[jmvd20]

One. . Disney has already spent the brunt of the cost of a monorail. They have a hanger and changing station and the original monorails and vehicles.

so now, all they have to do is build track. Not buy land, another building, or what not. just build more track. .

They would need more trains, additional storage and maintenance space for said trains, massive additional electrical work including the primary lines and the rectifiers, the monorail stations etc... All of these items add up very quickly to be a huge additional cost.

Your comment about the "unstable" ground is spot on... it would not be much of an issue at all to overcome if they were serious about expanding the system.

 

[dizzney]

What about new momorail cars? DIsneyland has brought in a new version of the car that faces out and is supposed to be a nicer ride, wlll WDW upgrade too?

 

[BigB911]

Florida is not the best test ground for solar or wind. Personally I would hate to see Disney spend much at WDW on solar as it just wouldn't provide much bang for the buck. I would rather see them put money into the parks. Let some other places like college campuses or government buildings invest and test that stuff. It isn't a good business decision for Disney. Although they seem willing to adopt green technology where it makes good business sense.

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding this. Isn't Florida the "Sunshine State?" So...why wouldn't solar power work at WDW?

As far as investing and testing...I'm pretty sure the testing phase with solar power has been completed, as it's been approved for personal (home) use. And as another poster stated, solar power can actually turn back the meter for what you don't use. It's not like WDW wouldn't still be hooked up to a traditional power source should they not be able to harness enough solar power. And why wouldn't they be able to? WDW has tons of land that is not developed yet, correct? I wouldn't mind seeing a large solar farm, like at the site of the not completed POP resort.

 

[Master Yoda]

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding this. Isn't Florida the "Sunshine State?" So...why wouldn't solar power work at WDW?

As far as investing and testing...I'm pretty sure the testing phase with solar power has been completed, as it's been approved for personal (home) use. And as another poster stated, solar power can actually turn back the meter for what you don't use. It's not like WDW wouldn't still be hooked up to a traditional power source should they not be able to harness enough solar power. And why wouldn't they be able to? WDW has tons of land that is not developed yet, correct? I wouldn't mind seeing a large solar farm, like at the site of the not completed POP resort.

The title of the sunshine states borders on false advertising. While we do get our fare share we seem to get just as many overcast and rainy days as we do sunny days. Solar power is still usable in Florida but it is nowhere as efficient as it is in places like Arizona and California. As solar and battery technology improve the places that it can be used effectively will increase as well.

 

[828tnt]

i'd love to see the expansion take place connecting all of wdw. that said i'm not an engineer, so i can't offer much on the technical end. however, i do understand the dollars and cents of it all.

that said, with all of the talk of solar power, couldn't this be tied into an epcot pavilion in some way? i mean design a building structure covered with solar panels in some way, and include it in its theme......

i know it's just a raw idea, but i'm sure someone could run with it!

"don't tell me what you can't do. tell me what you can do!"
-w disney

 

[Fun2BFree]

that said, with all of the talk of solar power, couldn't this be tied into an epcot pavilion in some way? i mean design a building structure covered with solar panels in some way, and include it in its theme......

i know it's just a raw idea, but i'm sure someone could run with it!

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not (the internet is terrible at this), but have you heard of the Universe of Energy?

 

[828tnt]

no, i wasn't really being sarcastic. i guess i just did a poor job of conveying my idea. i meant to dramatically expand on the solar panel roof idea.

i know it currently powers part of the UoE ride itself, so obviously it would need to be much larger. the only real attraction to the UoE is "to see the dinsaurs". i know how touchy a subject it can be when you start talking about getting rid of attractions, that's why i didn't mention it directly.

it would certainly be more about energy than anything else, but what about the engineering behind it, what about a presentation about the monorail system itself- "from steam trains to monorails....."

just throwing an idea out there trying to make it more functional without totally changing the idea of the current UoE. and without simply constructing a huge solar field on property and not using in a show of some sort.

sorry if i sounded like an idiot, i guess i just didn't explain myself very well....