Any Monorail Expansion Updates?

[MAGICFLOP]

Of course these numbers cannot be translated directly to any expansions of the WDW monorail as these costs do include acquiring land and some include large tunnels or traversing large waterways. Also the number of stations, any switching tracks etc... can effect the costs tremendously.

Only Disney can figure out the true cost. Disney does so much construction that the may have their hands in the business. My meaning is, that even if a project comes with a hefty price tag, they may still do it if the company doing the construction is a subsidiary company of Disney.

 

[bh7812]

I will just chime in with the different rumors I've heard and read over the years instead of throw around dollar figures and such cause I'm no expert on this stuff.

Going back 20 years ago, to when Hollywood Studios first opened, there was talk they'd extend the monorail to include Hollywood Studios and a few of the Epcot resorts. The Swan and Dolphin and Yacht and Beach Club were thought to be possibilities for stops.

Then, again, just going by what I read, about 10 years ago, before 9/11 and all of that happened there was more talk and it was much more ambitious..this time not only was there talk of expansion to include Hollywood Studios, but possibly Animal Kingdom and they were looking into extending it to Downtown Disney too..actually there had been talk and rumors of extening it to Downtown Disney for many years, even when it was still the Village Marketplace. Also included in this ambitious rumor was expansion that would create a line from the Disney property out to Orlando International. Right before 9/11 happened it was more or less guaranteed some of the expansion was finally going to happen...all that was left at the time was to begin construction. If that had happened we'd be enjoying an expanded Monorail system to some extent right now

That brings us to a year ago...the last time I read any rumors or anything about this period suggested that they'd scrapped most of the larger ambitious plan but were seriously looking into at the very least extending from Epcot to the Hollywood Studios. The place where I read it went so far as to say Disney's already green-lighted that variation of the plan and construction was supposed to start this Spring. I can try to find where I read that if anyone would like If they just wanted to extend strictly from Epcot to Hollywood Studios I would think that would be FAR less expensive than all those other rumored plans, the two parks are almost but not quite, right next to each other. If any further expansion ever does happen my personal opinion is they will just extend from Epcot to Hollywood Studios.

I'd love to see some expansion even just a very small amount. I've always loved the monorails but understand no matter where you build a monorail system now it's terribly expensive.

I just thought I'd share the few different rumored variations on expansion plans I have read over the years

 

[s8film40]

I was on the resort monorail last night and was talking to a guest that boarded at the Magic Kingdom. She mentioned she was going to the All Star resort and I said to her "oh the bus you need is actually here at the Magic Kingdom" to which she responded "Oh no we're going to the parking lot, we avoid the Disney bus system at all costs". This in itself was no shock to me I hear people say things like this a lot, but a thought occurred to me. One angle I never really thought about is strictly from a financial perspective the Disney buses are really great for Disney simply because they act as a deterrent for use of Disney Transportation. Disney can still say they offer complimentary transportation but guests are lees likely to use it if it involves buses, meaning less money spent on transportation costs. This women apparently found the Disney buses so unpleasant that her and her family were willing to presumably rent a car (I'm guessing here but it's probably a safe assumption), drive to the park, ride a parking tram in and out, and ride the monorail in and out. Even though there was direct transportation from the resort to the park entrance rather than deal with buses she took three separate alternate modes of transportation to get there. I know that this is not the only case many many people choose to avoid buses, I would imagine the number would probably be much higher at the other three park where the parking lot is right out front. All of these guests represent transportation dollars saved for Disney.

 

[Montyboy]

1. No because the field would have to take up the entire footprint of the property in order to generate enough power to fuel the system.

Which, of course, is a wild exaggeration.

 

[jt04]

Which, of course, is a wild exaggeration.

I don't think so. People have a pollyanna view of how much electricity can be generated by photovoltaics with today's technology. It would certainly have to take up a good portion of the available Disney property and Florida does not have the best climate for the technology (too cloudy, too often). WDW Monorail is being accurate.

 

[unkadug]

Check out this pod page:
http://www.ultraprt.com/BAA_LHR_ULTra.mov

If for nothing more than the Kraftwerk(-ish) soundtrack.

 

[jt04]

Check out this pod page:
http://www.ultraprt.com/BAA_LHR_ULTra.mov

If for nothing more than the Kraftwerk(-ish) soundtrack.

Love it! I actually think Eisner was looking at something along these lines at on time. He wasn't specific but this is what I pictured from what he was saying. Just wondering if it can adapt to changes in grade so the entire track would not have to be elevated (ground level track would have to be cheaper) ??? Also how does the expense for this compare to standard monorails?

Those would also look kinda cool looping around the TTA. Thanks for web site!

 

[maryszhi]

i think that it is nice to see disney become more enviormently friendly

 

[DisneyExplorer]

Expanding the monorail from Epcot to DHS is highly feasible. I'm shocked they didn't go through with it earlier. The longer they wait, the more expensive and bigger the pain it will be. These two parks are so close that it shouldn't be much of a problem to extend the track.

 

[bh7812]

Expanding the monorail from Epcot to DHS is highly feasible. I'm shocked they didn't go through with it earlier. The longer they wait, the more expensive and bigger the pain it will be. These two parks are so close that it shouldn't be much of a problem to extend the track.

This is exactly how I feel about it myself. What I read last year said they'd green-lighted at least doing this much and had put in an order for the stuff they'd need (track, equipment, etc). When construction starts depends on when all the stuff they ordered arrived. Basically, if it happens, the way I understand it..you know how the Monorail goes into Epcot and more or less goes around Spaceship Earth so it can head back to the TTC? Well, they'd take the portion of the track out that goes around Spaceship Earth and use that as part of the extension to DHS. That portion of the construction work would have to be done either during hours the park isn't open or they'd have to close off whatever section they're working on. Once that's done, the remainder of the construction wouldn't affect Epcot itself because it would be going on outside the park as they extend it South. Especially if they did it that way it's very feasible, since they wouldn't need too much more extra track to complete the extension. So, it would make the stop at the Epcot station as it does now and then continue South to DHS rather than looping back towards the TTC right away..the loop back in that direction would have to be in the DHS parking lot.

We'll see if this happens or not..IF what I read is true, the order they put in either hasn't completely arrived or they're still waiting on it.

I'm still trying to find the site where I read this for all of you, hopefully I can find it in the next day or two, I am looking

Edit 3: Sorry for another edit, last one In all this stuff I read it seems the management of DHS, the ones who run that park specifically really want this extension and have been trying to get it to finally happen. Given the supposed future plans for that park this makes sense..it's 20th anniversary will be next year..so it would not surprise me to see something happen in the next year or so.

 

[Thunder Kz]

well i hear with the high cost of fuel. they are thinking about maybe putting :ROFLOL: a line to each person house who has booked there trip. this way they can a sure people can still afford to go. :drevil:

I heard that too :lol: And, it's going to drop everyone off at the Steel Kingdom, the Harry Potter Ride, or a churro station. :ROFLOL:

 

[Montyboy]

I don't think so. People have a pollyanna view of how much electricity can be generated by photovoltaics with today's technology. It would certainly have to take up a good portion of the available Disney property and Florida does not have the best climate for the technology (too cloudy, too often). WDW Monorail is being accurate.

Okay, let's do the math. Four 100Hp motors per train is 300kW. 12 trains for 18 hours a day is 64,800 kWh. Orlando recveives 5 to 5.5 kWh/m^2 per day of solar energy average. Solar arrays are 20% efficient, so we can use 1 kWh/m^2, or 64,800 square meters (a square less than 300 meters on a side.) And this is for all of the trains running flat out.

I wouldn't use solar energy for this application, but I also don't want the facts to get in the way of opinions.

 

[jt04]

Okay, let's do the math. Four 100Hp motors per train is 300kW. 12 trains for 18 hours a day is 64,800 kWh. Orlando recveives 5 to 5.5 kWh/m^2 per day of solar energy average. Solar arrays are 20% efficient, so we can use 1 kWh/m^2, or 64,800 square meters (a square less than 300 meters on a side.) And this is for all of the trains running flat out.

I wouldn't use solar energy for this application, but I also don't want the facts to get in the way of opinions.

If you could get 65 Megawatts out of a 64,800 sq. meter solar photovoltaic array, they would be everywhere. You are totally misinterpreting the "20% efficient" ratings the industry uses.....

.....also the sun does not shine 18 hours a day.

Maybe an industry expert can set the record straight because what you are saying is impossible IMO.

Do you have photovoltaics on your house? By your math they would likely pay for themselves in a couple years and you would have free electricity for decades.

By the way, Google's massive, and I do mean massive, solar array only generates 1.6 megawatts at peak from 9000 panels. Something does not add up here.

 

[WDW Monorail]

Okay, let's do the math. Four 100Hp motors per train is 300kW. 12 trains for 18 hours a day is 64,800 kWh. Orlando recveives 5 to 5.5 kWh/m^2 per day of solar energy average. Solar arrays are 20% efficient, so we can use 1 kWh/m^2, or 64,800 square meters (a square less than 300 meters on a side.) And this is for all of the trains running flat out.

I wouldn't use solar energy for this application, but I also don't want the facts to get in the way of opinions.

What kind of cells are you using? :shrug: You would make a hell of a lot of money if you would sell those cells you described.


As for the sun not shining for 18 hours, it wouldn't matter since energy would be stored in batteries. However thousands of batteries would be needed.

 

[Montyboy]

If you could get 65 Megawatts out of a 64,800 sq. meter solar photovoltaic array, they would be everywhere. You are totally misinterpreting the "20% efficient" ratings the industry uses.....

.....also the sun does not shine 18 hours a day.

Maybe an industry expert can set the record straight because what you are saying is impossible IMO.

Do you have photovoltaics on your house? By your math they would likely pay for themselves in a couple years and you would have free electricity for decades.

By the way, Google's massive, and I do mean massive, solar array only generates 1.6 megawatts at peak from 9000 panels. Something does not add up here.

Google's array is a good example. (I can explain the difference between a Megawatt and a Megawatt-hours later.) Disney would need 3 to 4 times the size of Google's system to run the monorails.

We can go through the calculations again [differently].
300 kilowatts per train, times 12 trains is 3.6 Megawatts. Which is 2 1/4 times Google's peak. Google's array, which is mounted on roof tops, is 200,000 square feet, a little under 20,000 square meters. I trust the 64,800 square meters I calculated makes more sense now.

As for the trains running 18 hours a day (not the sun shinning 18 hours a day.) I had to use something for determining total power.
Google is rated at 2,611 Megawatt-hours per year, or 7,150 kilowatt-hours a day.

 

[jmvd20]

Motors require very large amounts of power every time they are re-started, this would be a major part of a solar array and storage system capable of handling those demands.

Also there would be a substantial electrical draw for the other items operating on the monorails, such as lights, AC, control systems, and auxiliary motors, such as the door and braking system. While these items alone are not very significant all of them put together on all trains will add up to a very large current draw.

Just look at how many rectifiers are required for the existing system and you can tell that the current draw is massive.

My knowledge on solar arrays is limited to the landscape lights I have installed at my home so I am in no way saying what size array would be needed, I do however find this interesting and wonder what the actual size would be to power something like that.

 

[DisneyEverest]

i think that it is nice to see disney become more enviormently friendly

I agree

 

[marni1971]

Detailed plans exist for all possible routes; south and west to DHS, south past the CBR and east to LBV. They could begin tomorrow if they wanted. They won`t - until such time the bus service costs more than a mass transit system. Simple business economics in todays climate I`m afraid.

 

[WDW Monorail]

If all 12 monorails run for 18 hours each day, they would require 29,808KWH for propulsion.

This number does not take in to account the fact that not all 12 trains for for 18 hours. What also must be factored is that the propulsion [regenerative] braking system which dissipates energy to resistor banks.

 

[jt04]

Google's array is a good example. (I can explain the difference between a Megawatt and a Megawatt-hours later.) Disney would need 3 to 4 times the size of Google's system to run the monorails.

We can go through the calculations again [differently].
300 kilowatts per train, times 12 trains is 3.6 Megawatts. Which is 2 1/4 times Google's peak. Google's array, which is mounted on roof tops, is 200,000 square feet, a little under 20,000 square meters. I trust the 64,800 square meters I calculated makes more sense now.

As for the trains running 18 hours a day (not the sun shinning 18 hours a day.) I had to use something for determining total power.
Google is rated at 2,611 Megawatt-hours per year, or 7,150 kilowatt-hours a day.

Yes it is my "opinion" based on what I see elsewhere. As large as the google array is it still will only supply less than half of the buildings needs. Also, I am not sure how massive currrent draws would effect the system not to mention all the other systems the monorails use (as WDW Monorail mentions). So while you claim to be offering an objective math based conclusion, since you have not calculated those variables into your equation, I submit you are also offering an opinion. :lookaroun

Is there an electrical engineer in the house? Anyone? Anyone? :lookaroun