Any Monorail Expansion Updates?

WaltsApprentice

New Member
Light rail can be themed but a bus is a bus *ack*

Well with this new system on the bus where they play themed music for the location your going to and also a voice over telling you about the location and any times or attractions I think is a very cool upgrade to help make it more "magical" and different.
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
A TTC to DAK to DSH route (with a peoplemover route connecting DSH and EPCOT) would be very efficient, IMO. This would connect each park under a single route, using the existing station at the TTC, saving a great deal on construction costs with eliminated redundancies. What this would do to increase overall customer satisfaction would be invaluable. And the cost of operating the current bus system over time is far greater than the cost of operating an expanded (and modernized) monorail/peoplemover system.

Has Disney's new management team made any comments about this? And what about Steve Jobs and the Pixar people who now share management power?

While I agree with you that they won't be expanded anytime soon, Monorails are not inefficient. The per passenger per mile cost of monorails is usually less than half that of buses. Keep in mind the monorails account for around half of WDW's transportation needs and do so with less than 12 trains using a mere fraction of the energy that the equivalent buses would. Not to mention the labor savings, 10 monorail operated by 10 drivers is equivalent to 50 buses with 50 drivers. If there is one thing monorails are, its efficient.
There is more to efficiency than guest per driver and cent per mile numbers. First of all when you modify the 1982 construction price of one million dollars per mile of track to today's numbers you get a project that could easily approach a construction cost of a billion dollars. Also what happens when a monorail breaks down? You can't just pull over and put people on another monorail. The entire line comes to a stop. How do you adjust for peak crowds? You really cant. You can only put so many trains on one track. The Disney monorails are also not as power efficient as you might think. I will not even go into the return on investment argument.

You can delude yourself all you want that monorails are this magical thing that can solve all of Disney's transportation woes but they are not. If they were I am pretty confident that Disney would have expanded the system in that last 26 years.
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Oh thats all?? haha... i love it how (not saying you ) many think that they are experts at Monorail construction and how the company makes money choices. I also laughed when someone on here mentions doesn't Steve Jobs or one of the new people on the board want to add this haha..I think there main concerns are on other things...when a transportation system works fine on how it is..there is no need to stress over it..If it has been 25 years since they have added anything to the system's (except a new monorail) track..I don't see anything new coming.

Oh and that gondalia) spelling?) ski lift idea...um what would you do about when its raining or crazy high winds that florida gets many of times during the summer... Kinda unsafe like the skyway that was in MK. Plus it would probably be very much of an eye sore all over property...but again I'm not getting a real proper vision of what you are talking about. But imagine the maintence on it when some guest gets stuck on it.

Oh and a steel and plastic monorail that has Year of a Million dreams plastered all over is going to look really themed well jetting in front of or through the jungles of DAK. haha. You could have the monorail stop in Dinoland though...hmmm

Are you a bus driver? Anyway, the gondalas I mention are the enclosed kind that you see at SKI resorts. Rain would not be a factor as long as the stations are enclosed. Also, they can be built to withstand high winds. Of course road flooding in the storms you mention can also effect busses. Nothing is foolproof. And who mentioned a monorail going through AK? I meant a station in the parking lot which in case you have not noticed is not too heavily themed.
 

Master Yoda

Pro Star Wars geek.
Premium Member
Here is an article about a proposed 14 long monorail in Seattle. The estimated cost in 2002 dollars 1.73 billion dollars. To add insult to injury the price of steel and concrete have more than doubled since 2002.

I do not know were you shop but 1.73 billion dollars buys a lot of buses at the stores I go to.

http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_sea003.htm
 

jt04

Well-Known Member
Here is an article about a proposed 14 long monorail in Seattle. The estimated cost in 2002 dollars 1.73 billion dollars. To add insult to injury the price of steel and concrete have more than doubled since 2002.

I do not know were you shop but 1.73 billion dollars buys a lot of buses at the stores I go to.

http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_sea003.htm

They will never expand the monorail for that very reason. Plan "B" please.
 

gsimpson

Well-Known Member
I don't know that going to a Light Rail advocacy web site to get information on another mode of transportation is going to result in the utmost in reliable information. Light rail folks loath monorail for various reasons (not the least of which is light rail falls under the federal rail workers union rules and Monorail doesn't) The Vegas monorail system cost around 680 million and a bit over 1/3 of that was "contingency money" that they had to set aside in case it failed and had to be removed so the citizens of LV would not have to look at an abandoned eye sore (although in that city who would know what an eye sore is). It also included all the start up cost (maintenance facility, trains, right of way issues, and the design of a fully automated control system). The cost for the Seattle system included major renovations to some down town buildings. Having said all of that... Unlike most of the people on this thread who apparently are completely familiar with the cost of building an extension at WDW, I have no real idea what an extension to the system would cost, I suspect the 100 million per mile is no more accurate than the 1 million per mile number.
 

Timon

Well-Known Member
The price for the Seattle monorail included the purchase of right-of-way property. Businesses and land would have to be bought for stations and maintenance yards for the 14 mile system. All at inner city prices which is not an issue at WDW. The Seattle project was a government bungle at the it's best.

Also the price of buses vs monorail isn't quite apples to apples. You don't have to build the road the buses run on into the price of the bus. But maintenance on 400 diesel buses vs 12 trains all electric non-polluting is just one of a zillion factors. Figuring the price is very complex and calculating the value to the guest is harder.

The growing problem for Disney is too many buses in congested areas. If anyone has been to DTD during any high season evening, you'll find Buena Vista Blvd is virtually gridlocked with Disney buses.

Monorails are best at moving large crowds from A to B with ground transportation (buses,taxis & cars) feeding out to local venues.

TDL has a fantastic monorail with walk-through trains, which stops at the parks,hotels and rail station. I guess it was worth it there.
 

s8film40

Well-Known Member
You can't make up numbers and use them as fact. For example, when you say 'half', you are discounting the on-site busing to MK and Epcot from resorts, and you are also discounting the water transport to both of those parks.

When Yoda was talking about efficiency, he meant as a crowd flow pattern, not the energy efficiency. WDW's crowd flow - huge crowds at certain times of day, nothing at other times - is not conducive to a tracked system as the only means of getting to a park. If there was a way to quickly add and subtract trains and/or switch them to different lines, monorails or some other form of light rail would make more sense. But a monorail system the way the current one is done just isn't feasible.

I was not presenting any of that as fact, I really don't need to since most people here know just how efficient monorails are. With that said I think the subject could use some facts. You are right monorails do not make up exactly half of Disney's transportation but it is very close to it and this is what I meant (I apologize I should have been more clear). To be exact the WDW Monorail System accounts for exactly 37% of WDW's transportation ridership, see facts in table below.

2531586279_b4f6f3f708_o.jpg


You may also note in the table that although monorails account for such a high percentage of WDW ridership they have a comparatively very low headway time. This means that monorails are moving people more efficiently this also means that while the monorails are moving people more efficiently they are not operating at peak efficiency. If Disney wanted to they could reduce the level of service and save even more in cost and still provide service at or above the level the buses currently do.

In the chart below you can see that although there is a huge increase in buses and no increase in monorails over the five year period the monorails have increased ridership.

2532401310_5c16607c74_o.jpg


In this table you can see that the projection shows an increase of 20,000 in daily ridership for monorails representing a 13% increase and and increase of 32,000 in daily ridership for buses. With the monorails still accounting for exactly 37% of total ridership with 0% increase in infrastructure. However for the bus fleet to handle a very similar 15% increase the bus fleet needs to be expanded by 32% adding 150 buses.

The recent Las Vegas Monorail was estimated at $88 million a mile to construct, however monorail cost goes down the more you build. As far as switching trains this can be done in a matter of seconds. The Las Vegas monorail operates with continuous switching at each end of the system, passengers onboard travel through switches without even knowing it and trains are switched on and off with no delay in service at all.

Now of course for a monorail or any other mass transit to be efficient it needs to be designed correctly. Monorails should only be used for heavy travel areas such as the theme parks and maybe Downtown Disney.

Like I said I agree with yoda in that it won't happen but the reason is not because it's inefficient its because monorails are suited to long term developments where the cost can be recouped over long periods of time. Unfortunately I don't think Disney is currently thinking of WDW in the long term. With the report that was recently revealed advising Disney to sell off everything and remain as a licensor to WDW I think maybe they don't want to get in too deep. WDW is making money for the time being and with rising gas prices and now international competition unlike anything Disney has ever experienced, I don't think they want to invest to heavily right now. Only time will tell if this is the right choice.
 

Timon

Well-Known Member
The Las Vegas Monorail has many problems one of which is the route it was forced to build. The most efficient route would have been down the middle of Vegas Strip with stations serving both sides of the street. Unfortunately for political reasons there was no eminent domain to help and certain Hotel/Casinos which didn't like the idea, and forced the track to go around their property creating a crazy zig zag route behind one side of the Strip. This cut off half the potential riders and created an expensive route making it difficult to be profitable.

They are hoping to build an extension to the airport and eventually a route behind the other side of the strip.
 

MAGICFLOP

Well-Known Member
TIMON makes some good points about inner city pricing/rightaways etc.

The long term benefits of a sytem wide loop (include all 4 parks & downtown Disney) is great. Manpower to drive/maint. buses is expensive and is rising each year with benefits costs.

They say that it cost 1 million a mile when it was built orig. I can't see it climbing to 100 million/mile. Disney's monorail is a more barebones than what seatle was talking about. The article said it would have an emergency walkway, concrete drip pans.

I wouldnt go to the lower end resorts, that is WDW be plug for staying at the contemp and others on the MR now. They can more for rooms.
 

PeterAlt

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I agree with you on the principle of a non-motorized resort wide transportation system. I have recently thought that a light rail loop from an expanded TTC at Epcot parking lot that went to a station just west of the Dolphin/Swan and then out to Coronado Springs/Blizzard Beach and then onto a station at Animal Kingdom would be effective. Then add a short monorail spur from AKL to the station at AK and the people mover you mentioned from DHS to the station near the Dolphin/Swan and you would eliminate the need for MANY of the busses and move people far easier. I have always thought they could also add a gondola type ski lift (very inexpensive) from WL to the MK TTC to eliminate the need for so many water taxis and busses serving that resort. Also (I just checked google earth) the gondola system could also be used to transport guest from a station at CBR to a new station and Epcot entrance on the east side of World Showcase. All-Star resort guests could be transported via gondola to the new light rail station at Blizzard Beach. The gondola system could also be used to get guests from Pop Century to DHS. In the long run they could also add a light rail loop from SS to OKW to PO and to the expanded TTC at Epcot.

With the price of fossil fuels so high and the "greening" of the resort becoming a priority this strategy (or something similar)has to be receiving some consideration.

You know, something is very wrong with this state. You know how long Central Florida counties have been talking about Light Rail? Decades well-intentioned politicians have been talking about building a light rail system enthusiastically and never took concrete steps to actually get it built. Then, also for many decades and millions and millions of dollars spent Floridian politicians pushed for a state-wide bullet train system, only to be canceled and then completely restarted and canceled again without a single inch of track laid. WDW seems to also be under such a spell!

Meanwhile, a few years ago, two hotel owners in Los Vegas purchased a retired WDW monorail train from Disney and built an elevated monorail track linking their two hotels (with their own money). Other hotel owners wanted in and paid for track extensions to get their hotel properties hooked up. Later, the whole city loved their new monorail so much that the tax payers voted to extend the system up and down the Vegas strip and throughout the city and purchased next-gen Mark trains from Bombardiar. And just a few months ago, the Congress approved funds to start construction of the first leg of a Maglev bullet train that will connect the Vegas strip, the Vegas airport, then on to Los Angeles (CA), and then ending at Disneyland in Anaheim!

See, the folks out west don't talk projects like these to death and never build them - they spend less time talking and more time building. As a Floridian myself, I'm really not happy that nothing gets done here.
 
One thing that you guys are missing in all of your plans and propositions, is that you cannot have two separate monorail systems. To have two, you would have to purchases new monorails to run the tracks and build a new barn and one person had the idea of I believe three or four separate systems which would be unimaginable in initial building costs.

If they were going to build anything at all, it would be a loop that runs from the expanded Epcot station to DHS and DAK, which would require and beam shift built also so at night the monorail(s) running that route could return back home.

And peoples ideas of gondolas is stupid. That would make the skies of Disney World ugly.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
The monorail was a necessity in the design of the Magic Kingdom as there was no parking lot up against the attraction. I can only assume they made an Epcot route because the cost wasn't as prohibitive as it would be now. As nice as it would be to connect all of the parks and resorts with a monorail, it's not practical. The cost for something like that would likely be enough to build a new park, however the monorail expansion would not add to the profits.
 

devoy1701

Well-Known Member
The monorail was a necessity in the design of the Magic Kingdom as there was no parking lot up against the attraction. I can only assume they made an Epcot route because the cost wasn't as prohibitive as it would be now. As nice as it would be to connect all of the parks and resorts with a monorail, it's not practical. The cost for something like that would likely be enough to build a new park, however the monorail expansion would not add to the profits.


Accouting 101: No it won't add to profits, but it will cut down on operational expenses...hense...increase the profit margin.


as we talked about in another thread...why can't Reedy Creek help fund the expansion?
 

Timon

Well-Known Member
The original phase 1 WDW was built for approximately $450 million dollars. Which almost broke WD Productions considering that was close to the entire value of the company. Those visionaries saw the value in certain long term investments. Why build tunnels under the park, why build a park wide vacuum system, why dig a lake where the parking lot should be?

Because it is the right way to do it and will save money in the long run.

They could have used buses to move people from the parking lot to the MK, but you can imagine the collective yawn of excitement that would create.

I wonder what the 1971 cost of the monorail system would scale up to 2008 dollars? A new line wouldn't incorporate any greater leaps of technology greater than the difference between DL's 1959 monorail and WDW 1971 monorail.

Hmmm? Where have all the visionaries gone?
 

tdonald

Active Member
The monorail was a necessity in the design of the Magic Kingdom as there was no parking lot up against the attraction. I can only assume they made an Epcot route because the cost wasn't as prohibitive as it would be now. As nice as it would be to connect all of the parks and resorts with a monorail, it's not practical. The cost for something like that would likely be enough to build a new park, however the monorail expansion would not add to the profits.

There was no "necessity" to build either of the monorails. Seven Seas Lagoon was made by Disney, and they could have somehow put the parking lot within walking distance like the other parks. The Epcot line was built when it was less expensive and when Disney still wanted spare no expense and pour money into the parks (not that they don't spend fortunes now).

It's comes down to the fact that it won't make money. The bus system still works, at least for the moment. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 

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