Alligators captured at Disney doubles

Pixieish

Well-Known Member
We have been going to WDW for over 20 years. Even back then, and even further back as I was a child in the 70s, we associated Florida with gators. Geez, I wonder why! It is not unreasonable to expect people get out of their little bubble and be aware of their surroundings. There is no excuse for anyone from the USA to NOT know that there are gators in Florida waters. All you have to do is watch your nightly news and you hear about Florida alligators. Just like I know that if I go up north and walk in the woods there are bears. We all should know about the dangers of wildlife. Maybe I have a higher level of self preservation, but I think it is foolish to let down your guard just because you are on vacation.

Well...there have been people who literally thought it wouldn't rain while they were at Disney World...
:rolleyes:
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest the researching dangerous local wildlife has always been a natural part of planning a Disney theme park vacation. A Walt Disney World vacation is something a lot of visitors would choose instead of, say, hiking through the Australian outback or exploring the Amazon Basin to a large extent because it's packaged as a relatively easy, relaxing, and fun vacation that doesn't requite the kind of research, preparation, or risks that those vacations might require.

That said, I don't think anyone is blaming Disney for the attack. It's more that neither Disney nor probably the vast majority of guests anticipated this happening and that's reflected both in Disney's half-hearted no-swimming signs and in the actions of these parents as well as I'm sure thousands like them over the years.

Yeah, I'm all for "research and do your due diligence" stuff, but reading some of the posturing here is a bit laughable. It's one of those things where people have the right principle but use it in an inappropriate case, ignoring context. It's really odd with this topic in particular - people had a similar type of reaction to Disney removing the crocodile float in the water pageant and the Jungle Cruise joke. Surely we have a problem with hypersensitivity in our culture right now, but that wasn't an example of it - it's called being respectful, not crass.

In this case, Disney advertises this as a one-stop, carefree destination where you step foot off of a plane, Disney whisks you away, and everything is footloose and fancy free until they bring you back to the airport. I do not think it is an ignorant thought for people to assume that if there was suspected danger from wild animals, Disney has either "taken care of it" or at the least would let you know. I don't think Disney was directly "at fault" for it, but they could have done more over the years to place more appropriate signs and barriers, as they have now.

It does all come down to the fact that as much as we love the romantic notion of MK being an "island" (which it's not, all part of the illusion), the SSL was a terrible idea to begin with. In so many ways. They wouldn't even be allowed to do it, today. Ecologically it is a disaster area. And while some folks will say "well, it's happened once in 50 years, what's the big deal" - they just don't understand that this is a progressive problem. It wasn't if, but when. These are no longer gators that just wander in, there are now generations of them that have become habituated to close proximity with humans. This is only a problem that will continue to get worse over time.

You can bet that they have people looking at long-term planning of the resort, and it's doubtful that the SSL is going to stay in it's current state for another 50 years. I mean, when you think about it - even aside from the ecological side - how dumb really was it to build these resorts on a fake waterfront that no one could enter? It just wasn't properly thought through - I mean, they initially thought folks would be surfing out there, for crying out loud. And this poor kid wasn't even in the water.

That said, on the flip side, I am pretty surprised that no one has mentioned the awful, terrible WaPo article about this (man, that paper has just gone down the tubes, it's pathetic). There is a middle ground, and while some posters here are way too far on one side, this article is clearly on the opposite end of the spectrum. The comments are even worse. If you want to talk ignorance, you need to read some of them. Since it's behind a paywall, I'll put it here - there is so much wrong with this article, I just don't have the time to parse all that is wrong right now. I mean, I don't think it's nitpicky to say that someone refers to Walt Disney World as a "theme park" (singular) throughout, repeatedly implying the entire place is some enclosed, protected area, has no business writing about the place to begin with.

Disney knew its property had alligators. It caught hundreds before a boy was killed.

The fatal attack on a 2-year-old boy by an alligator at Disney World last year raised questions: How many more gators prowled the waters of the internationally famous theme park, and did officials know about them?

Now it’s clear that Disney was aware of the problem. There are so many alligators around the popular resort in Orlando that it could easily create its own gator farm.

According to the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, more than 220 of the animals were removed from the location between May 2006 and August 2015. After that 10-year period, the number of captures and removals increased to more than 40 in a single year, June 15, 2015 to June 15, 2016. The child was killed June 14, 2016, and the following year removals more than doubled to 83.

A few days before young Lane Thomas Graves wandered into the white sand Seven Seas Lagoon where his family lounged, six alligators were hauled out of the theme park, four of them six feet or larger. Two days after an 18-hour search finally recovered the child’s remains, five alligators were removed from the property.

In a park where alligators are common, and a state where 1.3 million gators exist and nearly 16,000 were trapped and removed away from properties near humans in just two years, visitors spoke of the paucity of signs warning of their presence.

Disney officials, who responded to Lane’s death with profound remorse and erected more signs warning of unlikely encounters with wildlife, acknowledged that alligators exist on the property, but emphasized that the resort is enormous. Disney World is 40 square miles — roughly the size of San Francisco — and includes a 25,000 acre wilderness conservation area.

The number of alligators seized on the property where canals, lakes and lagoons intersect increased because the company strengthened a plan to keep them out. “In keeping with our strong commitment to safety, we continue to reinforce procedures related to reporting sightings and interactions with wildlife, and work closely with Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission to remove or relocate certain wildlife from our property,” said Jacquee Wahler, a spokeswoman.

“In the past year, we have reinforced procedures and training with our cast for reporting sightings and interactions with wildlife,” Wahler said, “and expanded our communication to guests on the presence of wildlife.”

Another factor contributes to relatively few alligator warning signs in watery areas throughout Florida, wildlife biologists have said: Unprovoked alligator attacks involving humans are rare in the Florida.

Lane’s parents, Melissa and Matt Graves, who leapt into the lagoon in a failed attempt to free his son from the alligator’s jaws, said shortly after the Lane’s death that they would not sue Disney World. It was deemed an accident.

Walt Disney World President George Kalogridis released a statement in which he vowed the organization would support the family. The Graveses launched the Lane Thomas Foundation, which works to find organ donors. A year after the death, Disney erected a lighthouse statue in the child’s honor, drawing on the foundation’s mission to turn its namesake into a “beacon of hope.”

“It is our hope that through the foundation we will be able to share with others the unimaginable love Lane etched in our hearts,” the family said in a statement.

Legal experts speculated that a lawsuit or court settlement could have been considerable, particularly if Disney officials understood that alligators were a constant presence in its park.

And that much is clear. The state wildlife commission’s spreadsheet shared with The Washington Post shows that four alligators were removed from Disney World in a single day in March last year. Ten days after that, March 14, seven were caught. On May 10, a little more than a month before the fatal attack, trappers removed six alligators from Disney World.

Walt Disney Parks and Resorts sought and received a Target Harvest Area permit from the Florida commission that allows it to “work directly with a designated FWC contracted nuisance alligator trapper to remove . . . alligators from the property.” That’s when the captures grew.

The commission removes alligators four feet and longer that pose a threat to people or pets “at no cost,” said a spokeswoman, Katie Purcell. Any trapper who removes the animal can keep it. “In most cases, the alligator is processed for its hide and meat,” Purcell said. Sometimes alligators are sold to a farm or zoo.

The state pays a $30 stipend for each catch, but the meat is how trappers earn money. In Florida, there are plenty of opportunities for an alligator trapper to earn a living. The wildlife commission’s spreadsheet lists golf courses, apartment complexes, community clubs, water ski outlets, schools and yacht clubs as just a few of the places where trappers have hauled away gators.

But partly due to its size, few locations compare to the world’s most famous park, whose name is sometimes stacked on the spreadsheet, because very often five alligators are pulled out in a single day."
 

Pixieish

Well-Known Member
I guess it's time to start hunting & killing more storm clouds. Kill as many as possible. It rains too much in Florida nowadays.


And that is called natural selection. *facepalm*
 

Sir_Cliff

Well-Known Member
In this case, Disney advertises this as a one-stop, carefree destination where you step foot off of a plane, Disney whisks you away, and everything is footloose and fancy free until they bring you back to the airport. I do not think it is an ignorant thought for people to assume that if there was suspected danger from wild animals, Disney has either "taken care of it" or at the least would let you know. I don't think Disney was directly "at fault" for it, but they could have done more over the years to place more appropriate signs and barriers, as they have now.
I completely agree with your entire post, but particularly that bolded part. Most people are not so stupid as to think nothing bad can happen at Disney World, but I think most people would expect that they'd at least be alerted if there was a danger of something like alligator attacks.

Honestly, I knew there were alligators all over WDW and I don't think I would have thought much of seeing a little child splashing at the water's edge. Having grown up in Australia and taken many vacations in places with giant saltwater crocodiles, there are always plenty of signs warning you not to go near the water's edge. Particularly considering they used to allow people to swim in the lagoon, my presumption was that alligators were not generally aggressive toward humans. You could not have WDW as it is in a place with saltwater crocodiles, for example, as this would be happening to people all the time.

This was mostly a freak incident from most accounts, which may (or may not) speak to behavioural changes in the alligators living in and around the SSL. Either way, I think it's fair to say that both the parents and Disney could have anticipated this better but neither was grossly negligent in not anticipating the attack. Particularly considering how dignified the family were in their response, I really don't like the idea being pushed around here that of course they (and all WDW guests) should have researched the dangerous wildlife of Florida when booking their WDW vacation. I'm sure virtually no-one has ever done that.
 
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Pixieish

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm all for "research and do your due diligence" stuff, but reading some of the posturing here is a bit laughable. It's one of those things where people have the right principle but use it in an inappropriate case, ignoring context. It's really odd with this topic in particular - people had a similar type of reaction to Disney removing the crocodile float in the water pageant and the Jungle Cruise joke. Surely we have a problem with hypersensitivity in our culture right now, but that wasn't an example of it - it's called being respectful, not crass.

In this case, Disney advertises this as a one-stop, carefree destination where you step foot off of a plane, Disney whisks you away, and everything is footloose and fancy free until they bring you back to the airport. I do not think it is an ignorant thought for people to assume that if there was suspected danger from wild animals, Disney has either "taken care of it" or at the least would let you know. I don't think Disney was directly "at fault" for it, but they could have done more over the years to place more appropriate signs and barriers, as they have now.

It does all come down to the fact that as much as we love the romantic notion of MK being an "island" (which it's not, all part of the illusion), the SSL was a terrible idea to begin with. In so many ways. They wouldn't even be allowed to do it, today. Ecologically it is a disaster area. And while some folks will say "well, it's happened once in 50 years, what's the big deal" - they just don't understand that this is a progressive problem. It wasn't if, but when. These are no longer gators that just wander in, there are now generations of them that have become habituated to close proximity with humans. This is only a problem that will continue to get worse over time.

You can bet that they have people looking at long-term planning of the resort, and it's doubtful that the SSL is going to stay in it's current state for another 50 years. I mean, when you think about it - even aside from the ecological side - how dumb really was it to build these resorts on a fake waterfront that no one could enter? It just wasn't properly thought through - I mean, they initially thought folks would be surfing out there, for crying out loud. And this poor kid wasn't even in the water.

That said, on the flip side, I am pretty surprised that no one has mentioned the awful, terrible WaPo article about this (man, that paper has just gone down the tubes, it's pathetic). There is a middle ground, and while some posters here are way too far on one side, this article is clearly on the opposite end of the spectrum. The comments are even worse. If you want to talk ignorance, you need to read some of them. Since it's behind a paywall, I'll put it here - there is so much wrong with this article, I just don't have the time to parse all that is wrong right now. I mean, I don't think it's nitpicky to say that someone refers to Walt Disney World as a "theme park" (singular) throughout, repeatedly implying the entire place is some enclosed, protected area, has no business writing about the place to begin with.

The notorious "Disney Dome" thinking.

The really scary part is that they could literally fence in their entire developed property in FL, complete with under-water fencing/barriers, and the alligators would still be able to get in. Alligators find their way into screened-in pools in FL. Not a lot of people understand that.

There is a delicate balance that needs to be found in terms of conservation, and I think with 1.3 million alligators in Florida alone that it's time to back off and allow limited hunting to resume under less restraints than are in place currently. I think what we're seeing at Disney (and in FL in general) with huge populations in close proximity to people is conservation taken too far to the point that the natural, far away populations of alligators have gotten so big and crowded that they're finding elsewhere to establish themselves. Disney, especially, is in a rough spot here in that even if alligator populations in natural areas that are far from humans were reduced to the point that they no longer found it necessary to encroach on areas with people to begin with, Disney is surrounded by conservation land and they will have alligators on their property regardless. It certainly is and will continue to be an ongoing problem as the alligator population continues to grow, and there need to be some checks in place for that - both on the part of Disney and the proper state officials. People used to be able to swim in the lagoon, lol.

While I tend to be a realist in terms of understanding that there are just some things Disney (or any vacation destination, really) can't control, it is all too easy to fall into the "we're on vacation, nothing can possibly hurt us" mentality, and advertising attempts to convince us of just that. It's up to us - as an intelligent species - to remember that as much as we'd like a "complete escape" to be possible, it really just isn't.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Particularly considering how dignified the family were in their response, I really don't like the idea being pushed around here that of course they (and all WDW guests) should have researched the dangerous wildlife of Florida when booking their WDW vacation. I'm sure virtually no-one has ever done that.

And if folks are going to be honest, many of them really thought about it, either. If you read this forum when the "dangers" of SSL were brought up, it was almost always about the bacteria, not about alligators.
 

Pixieish

Well-Known Member
And if folks are going to be honest, many of them really thought about it, either. If you read this forum when the "dangers" of SSL were brought up, it was almost always about the bacteria, not about alligators.

Very true. And if I recall, wasn't that after a death, as well? Related to River Country?
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Count me in as one of those people who does a crazy amount of research on the location that I am visiting. I spend hours and hours online getting information. With the invention of the internet, their really is no excuse not to do your due diligence. We are planning a trip to Hawaii next year. I have been researching it for 5 months already. I even go to google earth and street view the area so that when I go there I am already familiar with where I am at. Part of it is because I love to travel and go to new places and part is a safety issue. I want to be familiar with all aspects of the area I am going. I have also traveled to other countries and have done the same amount of research. I know that if I go to Australia that it is the deadliest place as far as poisonous snakes and insects, etc. Just type in Florida in Google and look at the pictures and you will see alligators, pumas, and snakes. And I don't buy the argument that people do not have time to do research. Everyone has extra time. Just think about how many hours people spend watching sports every year, that is leisure time.
It's never a question of time, it's a question of not thinking it is necessary to study up for a theme park experience. I think that most people that haven't been living under a rock all their lives know that there are wild animals and that includes Gators in Florida, they just don't expect them to be in the parks anymore then they expect them to be casually walking along city streets in Miami.

Some like yourself enjoy the heck out of planning, others like myself do not wish to make a vacation the same as a term paper due upon arrival. I know and have known for at least 50 years that Gators, snakes and other creepy crawly things are in the area, I just don't expect to run into them in a controlled and heavily populated area like WDW. Of course, we would be wrong, but, it doesn't take but a minute of paying attention once we get there to notice signs and other "hints" that there is a chance of meeting up with something that might be hungry and sees us all as a walking buffet.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
We have been going to WDW for over 20 years. Even back then, and even further back as I was a child in the 70s, we associated Florida with gators. Geez, I wonder why! It is not unreasonable to expect people get out of their little bubble and be aware of their surroundings. There is no excuse for anyone from the USA to NOT know that there are gators in Florida waters. All you have to do is watch your nightly news and you hear about Florida alligators. Just like I know that if I go up north and walk in the woods there are bears. We all should know about the dangers of wildlife. Maybe I have a higher level of self preservation, but I think it is foolish to let down your guard just because you are on vacation.
When I was 15 (over 54 years ago) my family did a road trip from Vermont to Key West. There were a lot of things that we anticipated, but, didn't figure on the degree of intensity. Mostly the July heat in Florida. However, even back then my mother and father, both high school drop outs, knew that Gators existed in Florida and therefore my sister and I were forbidden to even stick a toe in any body of water within the confines of the state. It seems that my mother wanted to return to Vermont with the same number of complete children that she left with.

What does this say for the public today... I'm afraid nothing that can be very flattering. Two high school drop outs knew enough and had enough common sense to understand that there were dangers and protect themselves and their families from that danger. Doesn't sound real good for todays College graduate does it?
 

LAKid53

Official Member of the Girly Girl Fan Club
Premium Member
There are 1.3 million alligators in Florida, according to FWC. There's only been 23 unprovoked fatal attacks from 1948 to 2016, according to FWC. Over 2,000 people die in car crashes in Florida every year.

Alligators serve an important function in the ecosystem. During periods of drought, especially in the Everglades, they create small pools of water that provide hydration for other animals in the Glades (at their peril). As a top predator, they keep other species (except non indeginous snakes) in check. Remember the explosion of both deer, moose and elk populations - to their detriment - when we eradicated wolves from the 48 states?

A license is needed to hunt gators because, even though they are no longer a listed species, they are still protected because many cannot distinguish between them and the American Crocodile, which is listed.

No, we don't need to eradicate all the alligators in Florida. However, perhaps we should stop encroaching on their habitat...
 

LAKid53

Official Member of the Girly Girl Fan Club
Premium Member
So someone who is visiting WDW from lets say...Ireland or Germany or even North Dakota should do research on dangerous indigenous animals that could pose harm to them?? That's what most people do when they visit Disney...said no one.

So we should eradicate one of Florida's native species because visitors from Ireland and Germany might not know about alligators?

Plan on finding gators in any and every body of water in Florida, both rural and urban, including Disney.
 

jaklgreen

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm all for "research and do your due diligence" stuff, but reading some of the posturing here is a bit laughable. It's one of those things where people have the right principle but use it in an inappropriate case, ignoring context. It's really odd with this topic in particular - people had a similar type of reaction to Disney removing the crocodile float in the water pageant and the Jungle Cruise joke. Surely we have a problem with hypersensitivity in our culture right now, but that wasn't an example of it - it's called being respectful, not crass.

In this case, Disney advertises this as a one-stop, carefree destination where you step foot off of a plane, Disney whisks you away, and everything is footloose and fancy free until they bring you back to the airport. I do not think it is an ignorant thought for people to assume that if there was suspected danger from wild animals, Disney has either "taken care of it" or at the least would let you know. I don't think Disney was directly "at fault" for it, but they could have done more over the years to place more appropriate signs and barriers, as they have now.

It does all come down to the fact that as much as we love the romantic notion of MK being an "island" (which it's not, all part of the illusion), the SSL was a terrible idea to begin with. In so many ways. They wouldn't even be allowed to do it, today. Ecologically it is a disaster area. And while some folks will say "well, it's happened once in 50 years, what's the big deal" - they just don't understand that this is a progressive problem. It wasn't if, but when. These are no longer gators that just wander in, there are now generations of them that have become habituated to close proximity with humans. This is only a problem that will continue to get worse over time.

You can bet that they have people looking at long-term planning of the resort, and it's doubtful that the SSL is going to stay in it's current state for another 50 years. I mean, when you think about it - even aside from the ecological side - how dumb really was it to build these resorts on a fake waterfront that no one could enter? It just wasn't properly thought through - I mean, they initially thought folks would be surfing out there, for crying out loud. And this poor kid wasn't even in the water.

That said, on the flip side, I am pretty surprised that no one has mentioned the awful, terrible WaPo article about this (man, that paper has just gone down the tubes, it's pathetic). There is a middle ground, and while some posters here are way too far on one side, this article is clearly on the opposite end of the spectrum. The comments are even worse. If you want to talk ignorance, you need to read some of them. Since it's behind a paywall, I'll put it here - there is so much wrong with this article, I just don't have the time to parse all that is wrong right now. I mean, I don't think it's nitpicky to say that someone refers to Walt Disney World as a "theme park" (singular) throughout, repeatedly implying the entire place is some enclosed, protected area, has no business writing about the place to begin with.

I see the same commercials as everyone else does. Not just from Disney but all vacation destinations. They all make it sound like it is paradise with no worries. That does not mean we have to be stupid and and not pay attention to the world around us. It makes my head explode that people like you even hint at the fact that Disney or anyone else can predict nature. If an alligator walked through the turnstiles and bit someone on main street, then maybe you would have a point. But this is an outdoor area where any wildlife can roam free. You also act as if NO ONE could have possible predicted that anything bad could have happened. You would be very wrong. There are plenty of people that would not go down to the waterfront, and sure as heck would not let their kids go there. Us being one of them. We avoid all of the bodies of water when we go down and have every since we started vacationing in Florida. It is horrible what happened and it was a freak event. But we have to do better in not only educating ourselves but also using some deductive reasoning and play out what can happen in any given situation. Especially if you are responsible for little ones.
 

LAKid53

Official Member of the Girly Girl Fan Club
Premium Member
I guess it's time to start hunting & killing more storm clouds. Kill as many as possible. It rains too much in Florida nowadays.


And these are people who LIVE in Florida?!

Explains a lot....

:facepalm:
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
So we should eradicate one of Florida's native species because visitors from Ireland and Germany might not know about alligators?

No, we don't need to eradicate all the alligators in Florida. However, perhaps we should stop encroaching on their habitat...

No one is saying they should "eradicate all" of anything.

It's dramatics like this that are why environmental and ecological issues are often not taken seriously, or why so many people just roll their eyes and dismiss it all as hippy-dippy bullcrap.

There are 1.3 million alligators in Florida, according to FWC. There's only been 23 unprovoked fatal attacks from 1948 to 2016, according to FWC. Over 2,000 people die in car crashes in Florida every year.

Well, if you are so educated on animal issues, you know that citing those numbers isn't really valid when you take into account that the habituation of them is only getting worse. This is a particular problem that Disney has, as they basically created a country club for them with the SSL. And given Disney uses professionals to get rid of them, I don't think there is any danger of them being confused with American crocs. So since no one is saying to eradicate the species, and Disney isn't in any danger of getting rid of the wrong ones, I'm not quite sure who your rant is supposed to apply to.
 

Pixieish

Well-Known Member
No one is saying they should "eradicate all" of anything.

It's dramatics like this that are why environmental and ecological issues are often not taken seriously, or why so many people just roll their eyes and dismiss it all as hippy-dippy bullcrap.



Well, if you are so educated on animal issues, you know that citing those numbers isn't really valid when you take into account that the habituation of them is only getting worse. This is a particular problem that Disney has, as they basically created a country club for them with the SSL. And given Disney uses professionals to get rid of them, I don't think there is any danger of them being confused with American crocs. So since no one is saying to eradicate the species, and Disney isn't in any danger of getting rid of the wrong ones, I'm not quite sure who your rant is supposed to apply to.

Kudos to the Lego Movie quote even if it was unintentional! ;)
 

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