Aesthetic Analysis of Themed Design

[wishesjake]

This is an interesting layer of interpretation, but I'm not sure I buy it as revealing actual intent of the park designers, for a few reasons.

1.) The plot for BTMRR was empty for the first few years of the park's existence, and was originally slated for the Western River Expedition, which thematically would have been quite different from Big Thunder.

2.) The original Big Thunder does not sit at the end of Disneyland's Frontierland. It's more at the heart. I realize this is a Magic Kingdom discussion, but if we're to believe there are deep layers of intent in the design of Magic Kingdom, I think the case is made stronger if we can find parallels in the park that inspired most of what's there.

3.) Even if this was an original intent at the time of BTMRR's construction, I think the "story" has been demolished by the addition of Splash Mountain. I have read statements from Imagineers that the original idea of walking from Liberty Square to Frontierland was supposed to parallel going west across the United States and simultaneously forward in time (from the revolutionary northeast to the expansion-era southwest), but Splash Mountain pretty much throws a huge roadblock into the idea, by taking you on a massive detour to the antebellum South.

Oh, trust me, I don't think this was the original intent of the land or Walt or anything else. I am just interpreting it as it exists in the current Magic Kingdom park. Was it the intent of the designer? Probably not. After all, how many times have we heard Casablanca referred to as a "happy accident."

Also, interesting point about Splash Mountain because although it is an enjoyable ride, it does little to add to the mystique that is Frontierland. The geographical and chronological journey takes a severe detour through the Laughing Place.

Admittedly it is a fun ride, but can anyone make a case for the inclusion of Splash Mountain on the aesthetics of a pretty historically accurate history of America?

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

This is an interesting layer of interpretation, but I'm not sure I buy it as revealing actual intent of the park designers, for a few reasons.

1.) The plot for BTMRR was empty for the first few years of the park's existence, and was originally slated for the Western River Expedition, which thematically would have been quite different from Big Thunder.

2.) The original Big Thunder does not sit at the end of Disneyland's Frontierland. It's more at the heart. I realize this is a Magic Kingdom discussion, but if we're to believe there are deep layers of intent in the design of Magic Kingdom, I think the case is made stronger if we can find parallels in the park that inspired most of what's there.

3.) Even if this was an original intent at the time of BTMRR's construction, I think the "story" has been demolished by the addition of Splash Mountain. I have read statements from Imagineers that the original idea of walking from Liberty Square to Frontierland was supposed to parallel going west across the United States and simultaneously forward in time (from the revolutionary northeast to the expansion-era southwest), but Splash Mountain pretty much throws a huge roadblock into the idea, by taking you on a massive detour to the antebellum South.

Isn't Song of the South AFTER the Civil War? I coulda sworn that the fact that there are slaves in the movie was a fallacy.


And maybe you are supposed to stop walking by BTTMR?:lol:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Oh, trust me, I don't think this was the original intent of the land or Walt or anything else. I am just interpreting it as it exists in the current Magic Kingdom park. Was it the intent of the designer? Probably not. After all, how many times have we heard Casablanca referred to as a "happy accident."

Also, interesting point about Splash Mountain because although it is an enjoyable ride, it does little to add to the mystique that is Frontierland. The geographical and chronological journey takes a severe detour through the Laughing Place.

Admittedly it is a fun ride, but can anyone make a case for the inclusion of Splash Mountain on the aesthetics of a pretty historically accurate history of America?

Honestly, this goes back to the point I made earlier on TOO much analysis.:lol:


However, it could be a geographical connection? The rock formations are similar.

Aaaaaand SM just came over my iTunes. The irony.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Isn't Song of the South AFTER the Civil War? I coulda sworn that the fact that there are slaves in the movie was a fallacy.

You are correct, sir.

In which case the detour is even more abrupt. :lol:

 

[Wilt Dasney]

However, it could be a geographical connection? The rock formations are similar.

Pretty sure I've read that they did their best to make the ride's exterior match its surroundings, and honestly, it does fit from a visual standpoint. The story also has the rural, untamed flavor that animates Frontierland. It's only when you stop and think about the thematic departure that it hits you. Honestly, Splash Mt. in Frontierland is a pretty good example of the ability of Imagineers to make an idea fit an area that it isn't naturally suited for.

 

[wishesjake]

I don't think it is too harsh to question Splash Mountains placement of Frontierland. After all according to Walt FL was to be a section of DL that put forth "the hard facts that have created America." Now maybe there were some detours through some American myths like Daniel Boone/Davy Crockett/Paul Bunyan but at least they were humans.

Are we more likely to accept the cartoonization of lands if it involves a thrilling e-ticket?

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

You are correct, sir.

In which case the detour is even more abrupt. :lol:

Ah, cool. I was trying to run a search...:lol:

Right, I'm thinking that you do, indeed, have to stop walking.:lol:

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Pretty sure I've read that they did their best to make the ride's exterior match its surroundings, and honestly, it does fit from a visual standpoint. The story also has the rural, untamed flavor that animates Frontierland. It's only when you stop and think about the thematic departure that it hits you. Honestly, Splash Mt. in Frontierland is a pretty good example of the ability of Imagineers to make an idea fit an area that it isn't naturally suited for.

Exactly.:wave:


I read somewhere that SM is the Ozarks? Explains the red rocks....

 

[lazyboy97o]

Exactly.:wave:


I read somewhere that SM is the Ozarks? Explains the red rocks....

Nope, Chickapin Hill is in Georgia. Its Georgia red clay. You just need to watch Song of the South to really know.

 

[wishesjake]

What if we switch the discussion to Fantasyland?

Obviously FL is the land that is least grounded in the real world. It is a completely fictional land that only needs some grounding in the forests of Europe where the fairy tales originated.

I have a theory that the reason our FL is so poorly recieved is because the whole theme has been of a medieval fair in the courtyard of Cinderella's castle. And fairs are typically temporary, therefore the land has no lasting impact on the average guest. It has come to represent "the land where peter pan is." Hopefully all this will change with the addition of the Fantasy Forest.

Thoughts?

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Nope, Chickapin Hill is in Georgia. Its Georgia red clay. You just need to watch Song of the South to really know.

It's been ages since I dug out my copy....


Time to go hunting! Thanks, though.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

What if we switch the discussion to Fantasyland?

Obviously FL is the land that is least grounded in the real world. It is a completely fictional land that only needs some grounding in the forests of Europe where the fairy tales originated.

I have a theory that the reason our FL is so poorly recieved is because the whole theme has been of a medieval fair in the courtyard of Cinderella's castle. And fairs are typically temporary, therefore the land has no lasting impact on the average guest. It has come to represent "the land where peter pan is." Hopefully all this will change with the addition of the Fantasy Forest.

Thoughts?

I agree in full. The Entire mood of FL will be changing, thankfully. It's too sketchy now.

 

[yankspy]

Would anyone mind moving on to Frontierland/Liberty Square?

This meta-land has to be the ultimate statement about America in any Disney park. Although Main Street has major American themes and motifs, this area clearly tells the history of the United States. On the surface it is definitely a journey through American history, but the question must be asked: Why is it important for us to take that journey? What can we learn from it? And, how does the land affect the guest?

Liberty Square is separate from Frontierland because the break in the lands denotes the break from the British empire. America's history does not begin when we gain our independance. Therefore, Liberty Square is a land at the dawn of the revolution, whereas Frontierland is a land populated with people who have won their independance and are just figuring out what to do with it.

The Haunted Mansion represents the old manors that haunt the shores of the Hudson. The concept of a haunted house is a vital part of American culture. Metaphorically, it may represent the fears of the Americans during the colonial age: "What if we don't win the war?"

It is somewhat ironic that the culmination of Frontierland and the idea of manifest destiny ends in financial failure (the worthless mines of Big Thunder Mountain). BTMRR signals the end of an era, the dying of the Old West. Most of the residents have moved away from BTMRR to reside on Main Street U.S.A. Is the message that Main Street is somehow better than Frontierland? That the American Ideal has been reached in the year 1900?

Or am I just a lunatic?

Does any of that make sense?

It could also be that HM represents the fear of the new "American Experiment". No one knew if the crazy ideas of the Founding Fathers would work.

Oh, trust me, I don't think this was the original intent of the land or Walt or anything else. I am just interpreting it as it exists in the current Magic Kingdom park. Was it the intent of the designer? Probably not. After all, how many times have we heard Casablanca referred to as a "happy accident."

Also, interesting point about Splash Mountain because although it is an enjoyable ride, it does little to add to the mystique that is Frontierland. The geographical and chronological journey takes a severe detour through the Laughing Place.

Admittedly it is a fun ride, but can anyone make a case for the inclusion of Splash Mountain on the aesthetics of a pretty historically accurate history of America?

Doesn't TSI take place around the same time?

What if we switch the discussion to Fantasyland?

Obviously FL is the land that is least grounded in the real world. It is a completely fictional land that only needs some grounding in the forests of Europe where the fairy tales originated.

I have a theory that the reason our FL is so poorly recieved is because the whole theme has been of a medieval fair in the courtyard of Cinderella's castle. And fairs are typically temporary, therefore the land has no lasting impact on the average guest. It has come to represent "the land where peter pan is." Hopefully all this will change with the addition of the Fantasy Forest.

Thoughts?

As far as FL, the one thing that always sticks out for me is how it pulls off two very tough transitions. You go from the land of Tomorrow, into the land of fairy tales, then you abrubtly walk under an arch and you are all of a sudden in colonial America. Yet it seems to work.

 

[wishesjake]

Doesn't TSI take place around the same time?

Possibly, but the Rivers of America do not follow the chronological progession that the land does. Because the type of riverboat that supposedly resides in Liberty Square could not have existed during colonial (pre-1800) times.

One must assume that the river is more of an amalgamation than chronological history lesson. The amalgamation would be more clear if there were keel boats and canoes and ships like the Columbia to navigate the Great River.

 

[lazyboy97o]

s far as FL, the one thing that always sticks out for me is how it pulls off two very tough transitions. You go from the land of Tomorrow, into the land of fairy tales, then you abrubtly walk under an arch and you are all of a sudden in colonial America. Yet it seems to work.

I think the Tomorrowland-Fantasyland transition at the Magic Kingdom is one of the worst ever executed by Disney. It is far too abrupt. Personally, this is where I would have placed a "castle wall".

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

It could also be that HM represents the fear of the new "American Experiment". No one knew if the crazy ideas of the Founding Fathers would work.

Doesn't TSI take place around the same time?

As far as FL, the one thing that always sticks out for me is how it pulls off two very tough transitions. You go from the land of Tomorrow, into the land of fairy tales, then you abrubtly walk under an arch and you are all of a sudden in colonial America. Yet it seems to work.

But done with ghosts, whimsical effects, and good humor? If we wanted to portray political and social fear, I think it would have been done with something more serious- War.:shrug:


I think this falls under the banner of "Too Deep to be Analyzed". :lol:


HM is in LS just because it fits the visual theme, there.


Honestly, HM should be in Fantasyland.

 

[lazyboy97o]

But done with ghosts, whimsical effects, and good humor? If we wanted to portray political and social fear, I think it would have been done with something more serious- War.:shrug:


I think this falls under the banner of "Too Deep to be Analyzed". :lol:


HM is in LS just because it fits the visual theme, there.

I agree. A lot of what is inside the manor is more in keeping with a later time period, especially the dress of the occupants. Its as if the Haunted Mansion is inside a time warp within Liberty Square. Its location seems to be a matter of form follows function. The location makes it easy to hide the large show building, while the manor itself could be pretty much anything that looks like it was built quite a few years ago.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Based on the testimony of people who know more about architecture than me, Haunted Mansion is very well-suited to Liberty Square from the exterior. The interior is a different story, IMO.

This is similar to what we were saying about Splash Mountain a little earlier. Both rides are good examples of Disney working hard to make attractions fit their lands from the outside, even while the stories and themes inside don't match the geographical or chronological settings of their surroundings.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

Based on the testimony of people who know more about architecture than me, Haunted Mansion is very well-suited to Liberty Square from the exterior. The interior is a different story, IMO.

This is similar to what we were saying about Splash Mountain a little earlier. Both rides are good examples of Disney working hard to make attractions fit their lands from the outside, even while the stories and themes inside don't match the geographical or chronological settings of their surroundings.

Would you mind explaining how?:wave:


I've never thought about it.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

Would you mind explaining how?:wave:


I've never thought about it.

I've talked about this on here before, and not everyone agrees, but I don't think the attraction itself matches Liberty Square at all...or is even intended to.

As has already been pointed out, the dress doesn't match the period, the speech patterns are more modern (although you could argue this was meant to make the characters more accessible to modern audiences, a la Hall of Presidents or American Adventure), and the ride has a jazzy soundtrack that doesn't evoke colonial America.

The ride is essentially a copy of Disneyland's, which inhabits a mansion in New Orleans. While Imagineers went to great pains to make the ride's facade match its colonial setting, no real changes were made to the attraction itself...which is fine with me. I don't think the ride would be improved any by adding dead pilgrims or revolutionary soldiers.