A Terror-rific Spirited 13th (ToT fans have lots to fear)...

[wdisney9000]

I'm thinking TDO is really enjoying this thread...

Yes, literally, not being sarcastic...

Seeing all this talk about a competitors new (and potentially groundbreaking) offering is a lot better to them then seeing the (deserved) piling on on all the upcharges in so many other threads...

TDO and other Dis executives have about as much class and style as The Wet Bandits. Crow bars up....

 

[DDLand]

I didn't really want to start a thread about this, so I was wondering if somebody in here could enlighten me. Who is Serpico? I have heard a lot about them lately on this site, but all I know about them is that they are an insider, but I have no idea where to see what they have said. So they have a website? Or do they post on WDWMAGIC? Hopefully somebody can help me out. I would like to be able to see what they have to share about the various projects going on.

He/she is a source that apparently channels information to @WildcatDen, who then shares it with us. Serpico is only the code name @WildcatDen uses for this particular source. If I read right, not even he knows what Serpico's real occupation is.

Either way, the information that we've been channeled has been overwhelmingly accurate. It's worth keeping track of what is channeled from this source.

Correct me if any of the above is incorrect, @WildcatDen.

 

[WDWFigment]

The positive correlation between type and quality is another failing of the vocabulary built on the unique qualities of themed entertainment combined with several historical and socioeconomic factors.

First, the term 'theme' is used to describe too much. My go to example would be two people building a Batman themed room. One does a room painted in Batman blue and grey with some posters and collectables. This is a Batman themed room. The other person builds the Batcave. This is also a Batman themed room. So while both rooms can be described as themed, if story is at the heart of themed entertainment, then only one of these can be called 'themed' in the sense of themed entertainment. This is the notion of themed decor (the first room) and themed experience (the Batcave).

The distinction itself between themed experience and themed decor does not answer why any sort of value judgement is applied. As the quality of a themed experience drops the more it takes on an image similar to themed decor. A very well done Batcave is not going to look like a room, it will not be a clear box and there will sculpted set elements to created a realistic looking cave environment along wth other elements such as temperature, sounds, and so forth. As quality decreases we would expect the room to be more noticeable as a room and the amount of sculpture to decrease, the whole thing becomes less experiential and more visual. Continuing the decrease in quality we might find ourselves with a rectangular room with vinyl cave graphics applied to the wall and a grey floor. That story intent of themed experience would still be there but the visual is not much different than a room painted in Batman blue and grey (themed decor). Themed decor as it gets more expensive does not really gain the image of themed experience, so this creates the illusion of a linear relationship that moves down from high quality to low quality, from themed experience to themed decor to no theme.

Nothing about themed experience, themed decor and no theme actually puts them into such a linear, connected series that correlates to quality. Instead the optics of this relationship are something that have been reinforced as a matter of history. Amusement parks, even at their height in the early 20th century, were never considered high culture. By the 1950s when Disneyland opened their reputation as places of little quality was well established. Disneyland being both themed experience and a high quality amusement park helped to create the notion of this concept of theme parks being higher quality and amusement parks being lesser quality. Economics have continued to reinforce the distinction. The regional theme parks that opened in the wake of Disneyland would often open more focused on themed experience, but as a matter of distinction, cost and lack of understanding would incorporated themed decor. This is possible because themed entertainment / themed experiences are heavily built on elements that are not inherently story driven. A roller coaster can be a themed experience (the Batmobile racing out of the Batcave and through the streets of Gotham), themed decor (painted Batman colors) or just a roller coaster. Movies of low quality do not get labeled something else because there is no history of moving pictures without any sense of story nor a history correlating such moving pictures to quality.

This is the most insightful elucidation of 'theme' I've ever read. Your ability to dissect experiences, lands, etc., to analyze their successes/failings always makes for an interesting read (even when I disagree), but this is my favorite post of yours.

 

[Mike S]

Are we done with the semantics debate yet? I'd almost rather go back to the IP hand-wringing.

How about another rousing debate of Marvel in Walt Disney World?

 

[Princess Leia]

How about another rousing debate of Marvel in Walt Disney World?

What characters can be used, or whether or not Marvel should be in the parks at all?

 

[Daveeeeed]

What characters can be used, or whether or not Marvel should be in the parks at all?

Guardians and Dr. Strange

 

[spacemt354]

Only 23 days until Christmas...

22 days now...

 

[Princess Leia]

Guardians and Dr. Strange

What's sad is that I was actually looking forward to Guardians 2, and yet Disney's mishandling of the property for the parks is making me super ticked off about it.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

How about another rousing debate of Marvel in Walt Disney World?

I hear Universal is gonna gift wrap the rights and give them to Iger for Christmas.

And Mexico is gonna pay for it.

 

[BrianLo]

How about another rousing debate of Marvel in Walt Disney World?

That topic is one of the rare ones that is far more contentious and exciting at UO. Don't worry, I've got this covered.

Top ten perennial favorite punch bowl topics:

1. Is SDMT an E-ticket, what is an E ticket anyways?
2. Does Frozen belong in Norway, a lovely jumping point into the international parks
3. My Magic plus, an oldie but a goodie, we can talk about how much we hate Iger and Staggs
4. Will Shanghai Disneyland open? I'm sure we can revisit this one, still inconclusive.
5. Oh, how about who is the bigger Satan incarnate: Eisner or Iger?
6. Perhaps a round of what would Walt do?
7. Would you prefer some nostalgia? Bring back the Adventurers club and Horizons.
8. Want to get me chatting? Stars Wars in Disneyland, oh boy.
9. How about a round of troll hunting. 'hey look, Jordan Nite is back as another alias'
10. Blogger gossip: murder on the Hogwarts Express.

Bonus 11: Coming soon, Spirited 14th, now with 85% odds of GoTG ToT conversion.

That should be a good start. Have fun.

 

[Princess Leia]

Something that was brought up in this thread that hasn't been discussed in awhile- the incredible amount of immersion planned for SWL.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

That topic is one of the rare ones that is far more contentious and exciting at UO. Don't worry, I've got this covered.

Top ten perennial favorite punch bowl topics:

1. Is SDMT an E-ticket, what is an E ticket anyways?
2. Does Frozen belong in Norway, a lovely jumping point into the international parks
3. My Magic plus, an oldie but a goodie, we can talk about how much we hate Iger and Staggs
4. Will Shanghai Disneyland open? I'm sure we can revisit this one, still inconclusive.
5. Oh, how about who is the bigger Satan incarnate: Eisner or Iger?
6. Perhaps a round of what would Walt do?
7. Would you prefer some nostalgia? Bring back the Adventurers club and Horizons.
8. Want to get me chatting? Stars Wars in Disneyland, oh boy.
9. How about a round of troll hunting. 'hey look, Jordan Nite is back as another alias'
10. Blogger gossip: murder on the Hogwarts Express.

Bonus 11: Coming soon, Spirited 14th, now with 85% odds of GoTG ToT conversion.

That should be a good start. Have fun.

#4 made be spit beer on my phone.

 

[180º]

The positive correlation between type and quality is another failing of the vocabulary built on the unique qualities of themed entertainment combined with several historical and socioeconomic factors.

First, the term 'theme' is used to describe too much. My go to example would be two people building a Batman themed room. One does a room painted in Batman blue and grey with some posters and collectables. This is a Batman themed room. The other person builds the Batcave. This is also a Batman themed room. So while both rooms can be described as themed, if story is at the heart of themed entertainment, then only one of these can be called 'themed' in the sense of themed entertainment. This is the notion of themed decor (the first room) and themed experience (the Batcave).

The distinction itself between themed experience and themed decor does not answer why any sort of value judgement is applied. As the quality of a themed experience drops the more it takes on an image similar to themed decor. A very well done Batcave is not going to look like a room, it will not be a clear box and there will sculpted set elements to created a realistic looking cave environment along wth other elements such as temperature, sounds, and so forth. As quality decreases we would expect the room to be more noticeable as a room and the amount of sculpture to decrease, the whole thing becomes less experiential and more visual. Continuing the decrease in quality we might find ourselves with a rectangular room with vinyl cave graphics applied to the wall and a grey floor. That story intent of themed experience would still be there but the visual is not much different than a room painted in Batman blue and grey (themed decor). Themed decor as it gets more expensive does not really gain the image of themed experience, so this creates the illusion of a linear relationship that moves down from high quality to low quality, from themed experience to themed decor to no theme.

Nothing about themed experience, themed decor and no theme actually puts them into such a linear, connected series that correlates to quality. Instead the optics of this relationship are something that have been reinforced as a matter of history. Amusement parks, even at their height in the early 20th century, were never considered high culture. By the 1950s when Disneyland opened their reputation as places of little quality was well established. Disneyland being both themed experience and a high quality amusement park helped to create the notion of this concept of theme parks being higher quality and amusement parks being lesser quality. Economics have continued to reinforce the distinction. The regional theme parks that opened in the wake of Disneyland would often open more focused on themed experience, but as a matter of distinction, cost and lack of understanding would incorporated themed decor. This is possible because themed entertainment / themed experiences are heavily built on elements that are not inherently story driven. A roller coaster can be a themed experience (the Batmobile racing out of the Batcave and through the streets of Gotham), themed decor (painted Batman colors) or just a roller coaster. Movies of low quality do not get labeled something else because there is no history of moving pictures without any sense of story nor a history correlating such moving pictures to quality.

Very well said. I was going to write a post trying to say something similar to this.

I feel like the meaning of theme has been completely lost in theme park discussion. In literary terms theme is the broadest, unifying idea that informs the entire piece, usually based on basic human truths. For whatever reason, when we discuss theme parks, we say that the "theme" of Tower of Terror is a dilapidated early 20th century Hollywood hotel, or that the theme of Cars Land is the movie Cars, particularly, the desert environment of Radiator Springs. In literature and film, this sort of thinking is completely wrong. The theme of Les Miserables isn't post-revolutionary France. That's the setting. The themes of Les Miserables are tragedy, forgiveness, righteousness, etc.

Disneyland has a proper theme. Take a look at paragraph 3 of Disneyland's very first mission statement

Ideals, dreams, the hard facts that have created America, and courage.

I could even imagine how each land corresponds: Idealistic Tomorrowland, the dreams of Fantasyland, hard facts that have created America in Frontierland, and courage in Adventureland. Of course, it's all debatable. But it doesn't take much to see that Disneyland unites its different lands – not by setting – but by theme.

EPCOT is the same. There is a contrast between Future World and World Showcase. They feel very different, have very different settings, and say slightly different things. But together, they are united by EPCOT's theme (1st paragraph):

Fine, you say, but it's not the theme that really dazzles people, it's the setting.
Okay, but I think the theme is what makes Disneyland (or EPCOT) such a persistent cultural icon. Without it, how can it emotionally connect with someone?

Most theme parks do have a theme, even if it's loose. Animal Kingdom has a strong theme of conservation and respect for the unknown, but relies heavily on a seamless setting. That's okay, because the theme is still so strong. Something like Cars Land, however, is a seamless setting, but thematically, what is it trying to say? Perhaps it will try to reiterate themes from the film, like friendship and humility. But then it would just be a copy of the film, with no distinct purpose on its own. Now, I love Cars Land and the Wizarding World of Harry Potter as much as anyone else. But are they really themed? I argue, no, they are not purposely themed. They are translations of settings. That's alright, and guests will still enjoy it, but compare it to Disneyland or EPCOT which stand as bold, philosophical statements as an entire package, with everything in them pointing to the theme.

What makes art art? The level of realism? No, the thought behind it.

So when people throw at me early Disneyland's chain link fences, concrete switchback queues, Bavarian castle at the end of midwestern street, and dirt mounds, I understand how as a rendering it might seem less than realistic. But they are not holes in the theme. From the very beginning, Disneyland was thematically locked in. That's why it instantly enchanted the world.

 

[Stripes]

A moment of silence everyone !

 

[TeriofTerror]

That topic is one of the rare ones that is far more contentious and exciting at UO. Don't worry, I've got this covered.

Top ten perennial favorite punch bowl topics:

1. Is SDMT an E-ticket, what is an E ticket anyways?
2. Does Frozen belong in Norway, a lovely jumping point into the international parks
3. My Magic plus, an oldie but a goodie, we can talk about how much we hate Iger and Staggs
4. Will Shanghai Disneyland open? I'm sure we can revisit this one, still inconclusive.
5. Oh, how about who is the bigger Satan incarnate: Eisner or Iger?
6. Perhaps a round of what would Walt do?
7. Would you prefer some nostalgia? Bring back the Adventurers club and Horizons.
8. Want to get me chatting? Stars Wars in Disneyland, oh boy.
9. How about a round of troll hunting. 'hey look, Jordan Nite is back as another alias'
10. Blogger gossip: murder on the Hogwarts Express.

Bonus 11: Coming soon, Spirited 14th, now with 85% odds of GoTG ToT conversion.

That should be a good start. Have fun.

#10 - Make it so.

 

[Mike S]

A moment of silence everyone !

I am Groot!!!!!!!!!!!

(This looks amazing!!!!!!!!!!!)

 

[csmat99]

Something that was brought up in this thread that hasn't been discussed in awhile- the incredible amount of immersion planned for SWL.

It's obvious what the next step in immersion for Disney will be for SW.. Spend the night with (return of jedi) Princess Leia look alike in the castle for a low low price of 10k a night.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

Pencil test animation from Moana

 

[flynnibus]

Holy %{#}%

I skipped 30 pages and you guys are still talking about universal. Take it to the uni forum already. This is no longer a tangent but people hanging out. Have some control already...

 

[Mike S]

Holy %{#}%

I skipped 30 pages and you guys are still talking about universal. Take it to the uni forum already. This is no longer a tangent but people hanging out. Have some control already...

I'm constantly surprised how longtime members forget that any topic having to do with theme parks is game in a Spirit thread. He himself brings up the topic of Universal, even in this thread which started its focus on Tower of Terror. Do you want to complain that the Hong Kong Disneyland changes were discussed here too? The big "water theme park" argument has moved on. Do the same.