A Spirited Valentine ...

[rushtest4echo]

Best value of Disney time/dollar since the late, great Pirates and Princess Party.

To be honest though, that event had really great pyro and the lines were just as non-existent as the after hours stuff now- all at 1/3 the price or less. Your advise should really be: get in a time machine, and do P&P party years ago since this one offers less for more money.

 

[brb1006]

I agree that for what it was, it was very well done (assuming you can get past Mary Poppins lip syncing "I Love Rock & Roll", and the like). It was clearly a lower-budget production that was meant to be an obvious step down from the elaborate Parade of Dreams, in order to make the next real parade seem impressive in comparison. It was part of that year's marketing campaign, and it filled the role well. I think it helped that it was DL's only parade at the time, rather than a secondary show like MK had, so more resources were dedicated to it

Additionally, the show's performers did a great job with it, especially the street-level dancers. Performers in a normal parade at DL are on stage for less than 20 minutes from gate to gate; performers in C!ASP were on stage for nearly an hour, including three times through the 17-minute show stop filled with high-energy choreography and no real breaks. Even on cool days, it wasn't unusual to see the dancers sweating through their costumes halfway through the first stop; I don't think WDW's climate or talent pool would have permitted that sort of production. One show stop was occasionally cancelled during the warmest days of summer, but it was a very difficult production to perform (and had far more injuries than anything reliable I've heard of Paint the Night)

For what it's worth, much of the parade is still around in various modified forms. One of the big floats with the live emcees is the centerpiece stage for DCA's Viva Navidad street show, and the chassis of the smaller balloon floats were converted into the drum units for Soundsational. And the character bikes have popped up on occasion, including appearances in Tokyo and Shanghai

As a side note, Soundstational has had a good run, but it's starting to get into Aladdin/Wishes territory. If they don't replace it soon, there will be a huge outcry when the time finally comes, simply because people don't remember that other entertainment can be equally good (or even better). It opened in 2011 and there's no indication of it being replaced any time soon, which is a very long run for a DL parade

I think Celebrate A Street Party might have also been a throwback to the older parade float designs of the 70's and 80's.

 

[R W B]

Welcome back Spirit. With regard to the ever climbing fees, my girlfriend and I both cancelled our APs. We're voting with our wallets to let them know the prices are becoming too much. Will not be returning until SWL opens.

I wish my wife would be willing to do the same. First off, we're not APs but we go enough that we would save money if we did buy an AP so we're giving more to the mouse then we should be. Secondly, my wife even told me she's getting tired of all these price hikes and the cut backs but then her sister calls/texts and she's right back to planning a Feburary trip next year. That's her way of boycotting, not doing a 2017 trip because we did two week long trips in 2016 and already planning a 2018 trip. Guests like my wife are the ones who allow Disney to do what they're doing because they keep coming back, guess I'm a part of it for allowing it too though. Don't get me wrong, I like WDW, it's a special place for my wife and I, it's where I popped the question at but enough is enough.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Please not another Avatar debate.

It's a mediocre movie at best that most of the public no longer cares about but somehow Disney has made a land that looks great and I'm excited for ... let's leave it at that.

So... you get to put in your two cents and then tell everyone else to stop?

That's not how a call for cloture works.

But what are the color of Chappie's socks today?

Since Chapek (why are we using insulting baby words?) announced that GotG isn't coming to DHS's ToT, we've heard no credible rumor that might change. So, why the inference that it's going to change if it hasn't yet?

 

[rushtest4echo]

Voting with your wallet is really the only way companies learn to adjust service/pricing. However, if you look at Disneyland's recent AP unfriendly actions- they don't want those people's wallets. The park has a finite amount of space and AP's/repeat visitors clogging up eateries (while not buying anything), arriving for night shows hours in advance that they've seen 10 times (crowding out the non-locals), gaming fastpass while making wait times explode for non-locals and eating through the extremely limited parking are all reasons that Disneyland has decided to pursue the money from other demographics. It's almost like Disneyland should post a sign outside saying "thanks locals, but you really don't compete with the percaps of out-of-towners and it'd be best if you eased off your regular visits here to make room for the spenders".

By simply excluding a given number of locals, they're making the experience far better for visitors. I have a feeling that WDW is headed down that path at a slower pace. Not that any of this is bad for business mind you- attracting higher spending demos what any industry should strive for. Moderate attendance gains at a major cost of efficiency is bad for business- regardless of how it miffs some of the armchair operations/imagineering managers here.

 

[ToTBellHop]

So... you get to put in your two cents and then tell everyone else to stop?

That's not how a call for cloture works.




Since Chapek (why are we using insulting baby words?) announced that GotG isn't coming to DHS's ToT, we've heard no credible rumor that might change. So, why the inference that it's going to change if it hasn't yet?

You didn't answer the question. Salmon. Only salmon.

 

[Mike S]

Avatar the movie is Ferngully with psionic blue cat people. It was visually amazing when released as it was the first 3D systems that worked and did not give a headache during use

During my recent watching it could also be seen as reverse Independance Day.

Honestly a lot of movies and stories are derivative of each other. As long as it's entertaining I'm down.

Um, Terminator. And Aliens for that matter.

Aliens and Terminator would disagree with you.

Was about to say the same thing.

Parc Disneyland was and still is not overbuilt. Hong Kong Disneyland was and still is under built.

Building a park that is too compelling is rarely the issue.

Disney's Hong Kong expansion is them throwing a bone to the government all while spreading out costs over as long as possible and limiting risk. Hong Kong needs more sooner rather than later. 2023 until their match to Pirates comes online is pretty slow. Add in the fact that the Frozen Land will primarily consist of one new dark ride and spinner and I feel like red flags start to manifest themselves.

All for a net gain of 2 rides and 2 stage shows. Plus a really out of place castle... #thankssteve

The dark ride is also a clone of Frostrom.

Disney really does think little of that little park.

Yes, sad is right.

With that said, it's probably going to be one of the best attractions in the world when it opens. Something along the lines of PotCBftST, Alcatraz, or FJ.

At least that's the vibe I get from the scale and makeup of the project.

6 years isn't awful for a ride like that, but a slightly expedited output by a year or two would have been critical.

I'm more interested to see Uni's Avengers ride since it'll be much closer to home than Hong Kong's.

That still happening @marni1971? @WDW1974?

True, but it set the tone for the rest of that series and pretty much every single video game about armored dudes shooting monsters in space owes a debt to that movie.

This is a very interesting video I found one night.

My personal favorite is Metroid though it's hard to be a fan these days...

 

[wdwgreek]

Not sure I can even respond to allegations that Disneyland Paris wasn't overbuilt at the beginning. I'll just pretend that wasn't said because it's too nonsensical to consider. Hong Kong Disneyland was purposely build in the mold of WDW's Magic Kingdom and MGM Studios- that is to say they didn't want to deal with potential fallout from huge spending and attendance problems that they saw at EPCOT and Disneyland Paris. Yes, HKDL was too small when it opened and had too few attractions. That issue has been mostly rectified and the park is expanding the boundaries again with both new expansions. Being too small is a much easier problem to address compared to being too large- something Paris has never really recovered from.

The size of the park at opening in 2005 was realistically 40 acres. 10 years late it was around 60 acres. In 10 more years it will be closer to 70. And if the next phase is greenlit (past Frozen/Marvel) then the park will be right around 75 acres- or exactly the same size as Disneyland's used acreage today. Given the much lower attendance and attraction count, I'm fine with the physical size.

And are you really upset over any park's 6 year plan of receiving a net of 4 new things to do along with several other re-done attractions? In addition to the new lands, Iron Man and the other major expansions that have come on line over the past decade?

2005- Park opens
2006- Autopia/Stitch
2008- it's a small world
2011- New Land - Toy Story Land (3 minor rides), Flights of Fantasy Parade
2012- New Land - Grizzly Gulch (1 major ride)
2013- New Land - Mystic Point (1 major ride)
2014- Paint the Night
2016- Iron Man Experience
2017- Moana Show
2018- Ant Man
2019- New Castle/Hub
2020- Frozen Land (1 major/1 minor ride)
2023- Marvel Land/Avengers Ride (1 major/1 unconfirmed minor ride)

Toss in a few resorts too...

I'm not sure what else Hong Kong can do for you if you think that they've been lazy... I'm pretty such most people around here would kill for 10 completely new rides, a few overlays, several new shows and 5 new lands (most of which are/will be unique) all to be installed into a park.

Someone seems agitated. When it opened it was under-built and frankly underwhelming for the first Disney China venture. I credit them for those updates and the continuing matience, Mystic Point is frankly stunning. The Iron Man ride is a re skin of 1980's simulation tech, I wouldn't chalk it up as some groundbreaking achievement, nor would i say that them getting the castle they should have had from the beginning is anything to applaud for. Cheapness in 2005 follows them to the present.

 

[JediMasterMatt]

To be honest though, that event had really great pyro and the lines were just as non-existent as the after hours stuff now- all at 1/3 the price or less. Your advise should really be: get in a time machine, and do P&P party years ago since this one offers less for more money.

P&P was fantastic. Magic, Music, & Mayhem is still the best pyro show unleashed at WDW to date. Too bad that the key things that made it great (slow times of year and the upcharge) are also the reasons why it went the way of the Dodo because of poor RoI for the Mouse. Just like After Hours will be... although, I still think they will try another price cut and take out the unlimited drinks/snacks and perhaps curtail more attractions.

Re: After Hours though... for $120 bucks (or "only" $90 for those with annual passes), you can do an entire days worth of MK attractions in the 3 hours they provide. I'm not saying it's reasonable for everyone as its expensive; but, just being on vacation in Orlando is expensive. For the amount of MK you get out of those 3 hours with the way it's currently running (no guest attendance), it's an absolute steal.

Re: the time machine... it would be far better spent traveling back to the late 80's or early 90's than just a P&P party.

 

[Absimilliard]

Neither city has what I would call a nice theme park climate. Although neither does Orlando and that sure means nothing!

But you can weatherize and I wish I could give examples (I can't right now) where people wanted covered walkways and larger showbuildings that incorporated dining and retail so people would be indoors more and were shot down (largely by Woodbury). I wish the Chinese were being as forceful with UNI as they were with Disney and that could change. I know there was a lot of concern at Creative about the partners visit.

But it would seem Disney also didn't weatherize Shanghai as much as they should have. I think 90% of the pics I have seen since opening are showing the park in the rain.

If you like everything you see at UNI's existing parks, then you'll like this. The sad thing is the original plans were much greater in scope and more unique (like what Disney did) and UNI is totally playing this safe. I'm debating visiting UNI-Osaka on my upcoming trip to Japan and I have to say after talking to friends, I'm likely dropping it for now. Yes, there are 2-3 attractions that are unique and I'd like to ride Jaws again. But when I hear about the crowds and realize that a good 80% of the park is been there, done that (and not even changed at all from the US parks), I'd rather do more historical and natural sites.

About USJ, they are in quite a difficult spot. Record crowds where they beat Tokyo DisneySea last year and not enough attractions to soak crowds up mean that going and buying Universal Express booklets is pretty much mandatory. They try their hardest at building high capacity attractions, but they are at the point where the additional demand soaks that extra capacity. Osaka is a huge city and they are now the only game in town park wise beside Hirakata Park, which is a family oriented park.

Attraction wise, Space Fantasy and its Virtual Reality makeovers is an exceptional attraction, same for the two big coasters, Hollywood Dream: The Ride and The Flying Dinosaur.

 

[ChrisFL]

Speaking of Osaka (The city), perhaps I've been spoiled by Tokyo, but I wasn't as impressed with Osaka as I expected. Then again, it is easier to get to all of the major parts of Osaka that are closer than the massive area that Tokyo covers.

 

[Sue_Vongello]

So... you get to put in your two cents and then tell everyone else to stop?

That's not how a call for cloture works.

So it's not a mediocre movie and most of the public loves it?

The point you missed was it doesn't matter whether the movie was horrible or average because the land looks great and most of us are excited for it and it's pointless for us to argue the merits of it anymore. We can't change anything so let's just drop the movie argument and be excited for the land.

 

[PiratesoftheHM]

As a side note, Soundstational has had a good run, but it's starting to get into Aladdin/Wishes territory. If they don't replace it soon, there will be a huge outcry when the time finally comes, simply because people don't remember that other entertainment can be equally good (or even better). It opened in 2011 and there's no indication of it being replaced any time soon, which is a very long run for a DL parade

One of the recent DL surveys asked people about their excitement level for bringing back Parade of Dreams (among other things). Any chance of it returning? RDCT and Parade of Dreams? 50th revival?

 

[Daveeeeed]

The theming at DLP itself was breathtaking, so well designed, Tony Baxter's finger prints are everywhere on it. However ugly doesn't begin to explain its neighbor, even with some great individual attractions the neighboring park suffers immensely from a lack of coherence. Hong Kong in my opinion was always under built.

100% agreed. If you've seen my rants from around the forum on how bad WDS oh man. The Attractions are the only thing that keep you in Walt disney Studios park -- nothing else. So the rides have high waits even with few people in the park because there is nothing to look at. It truly is a parking lot with great rides on it.

But yeah DLP is mesmerizing. The sight lines so perfectly constructed ex. Big Thunder, Potc, PM, SM, IASW etc.
I mean heck... Adventureland actually transitions well to Fantasyland because of Peter Pan!!

 

[PizzaPlanet]

The resort is looking less and less impressive (beyond the Jurassic World centerpiece, which has had the budget axe taken to it, and the signature restaurant nearby) all the time.

It'd be nice if that came stateside as part of an IOA expansion. That park needs more rides, especially with all of the expansion USF is getting.

 

[Mike S]

It'd be nice if that came stateside as part of an IOA expansion. That park needs more rides, especially with all of the expansion USF is getting.

It's more likely for Site B imo. Avengers is rumored for IoA anyway.

 

[DDLand]

Not sure I can even respond to allegations that Disneyland Paris wasn't overbuilt at the beginning. I'll just pretend that wasn't said because it's too nonsensical to consider. Hong Kong Disneyland was purposely build in the mold of WDW's Magic Kingdom and MGM Studios- that is to say they didn't want to deal with potential fallout from huge spending and attendance problems that they saw at EPCOT and Disneyland Paris. Yes, HKDL was too small when it opened and had too few attractions. That issue has been mostly rectified and the park is expanding the boundaries again with both new expansions. Being too small is a much easier problem to address compared to being too large- something Paris has never really recovered from.

The size of the park at opening in 2005 was realistically 40 acres. 10 years late it was around 60 acres. In 10 more years it will be closer to 70. And if the next phase is greenlit (past Frozen/Marvel) then the park will be right around 75 acres- or exactly the same size as Disneyland's used acreage today. Given the much lower attendance and attraction count, I'm fine with the physical size.

And are you really upset over any park's 6 year plan of receiving a net of 4 new things to do along with several other re-done attractions? In addition to the new lands, Iron Man and the other major expansions that have come on line over the past decade?

2005- Park opens
2006- Autopia/Stitch
2008- it's a small world
2011- New Land - Toy Story Land (3 minor rides), Flights of Fantasy Parade
2012- New Land - Grizzly Gulch (1 major ride)
2013- New Land - Mystic Point (1 major ride)
2014- Paint the Night
2016- Iron Man Experience
2017- Moana Show
2018- Ant Man
2019- New Castle/Hub
2020- Frozen Land (1 major/1 minor ride)
2023- Marvel Land/Avengers Ride (1 major/1 unconfirmed minor ride)

Toss in a few resorts too...

I'm not sure what else Hong Kong can do for you if you think that they've been lazy... I'm pretty such most people around here would kill for 10 completely new rides, a few overlays, several new shows and 5 new lands (most of which are/will be unique) all to be installed into a park.

Yet in spite of all the stuff you listed, would anyone trade the substance of that park to that of any other Castle Park?

While I think Magic Kingdom should receive attention, comparing any additions that a 12 ride park and a 20+ ride park get is ridiculous. One just needed much more help.

Sorry, I'm just looking at the playing field. This isn't 1955 or 1971 anymore. Destinations all around Hong Kong are springing up and making it an incredibly competitive market.

You want to know something interesting?

Even with the list you shared, Hong Kong started so far behind in rides (ride defined as you being moved) that Shanghai will meet parity with Hong Kong by the end of this year. We know more is on the way, and I'm not going to kid myself by suggesting that Shanghai is just going to stand still until 2023.

You don't happen to think that the attendance problems partially stem from the offerings?

It needs more, and quickly.

Also you gave me a laugh, the huge attendance and spending problems that plagued a park that boosted parks revenue by 40%? Epcot wasn't a problem. It made WDW a destination.

You need to separate Parc Disneyland and Euro Disney Resort. One bombed, one quickly grew to the top tourist destination and called for expansion. The park has had every disadvantage by being tied to terrible ancillary businesses that have dragged it down. That's what Disney Development Group will get you.

The Park has actually been pretty successful when it's properly managed and cared for. Which have been rare moments in its history.

You could quibble with some of the extravagance of the build out, but the roster helped sustain attendance of around 9 Million all through the 1990s and when Space Mountain came on it grew from there.

People like attractions.

 

[GiveMeTheMusic]

Not sure I can even respond to allegations that Disneyland Paris wasn't overbuilt at the beginning. I'll just pretend that wasn't said because it's too nonsensical to consider. Hong Kong Disneyland was purposely build in the mold of WDW's Magic Kingdom and MGM Studios- that is to say they didn't want to deal with potential fallout from huge spending and attendance problems that they saw at EPCOT and Disneyland Paris. Yes, HKDL was too small when it opened and had too few attractions. That issue has been mostly rectified and the park is expanding the boundaries again with both new expansions. Being too small is a much easier problem to address compared to being too large- something Paris has never really recovered from.

The size of the park at opening in 2005 was realistically 40 acres. 10 years late it was around 60 acres. In 10 more years it will be closer to 70. And if the next phase is greenlit (past Frozen/Marvel) then the park will be right around 75 acres- or exactly the same size as Disneyland's used acreage today. Given the much lower attendance and attraction count, I'm fine with the physical size.

And are you really upset over any park's 6 year plan of receiving a net of 4 new things to do along with several other re-done attractions? In addition to the new lands, Iron Man and the other major expansions that have come on line over the past decade?

2005- Park opens
2006- Autopia/Stitch
2008- it's a small world
2011- New Land - Toy Story Land (3 minor rides), Flights of Fantasy Parade
2012- New Land - Grizzly Gulch (1 major ride)
2013- New Land - Mystic Point (1 major ride)
2014- Paint the Night
2016- Iron Man Experience
2017- Moana Show
2018- Ant Man
2019- New Castle/Hub
2020- Frozen Land (1 major/1 minor ride)
2023- Marvel Land/Avengers Ride (1 major/1 unconfirmed minor ride)

Toss in a few resorts too...

I'm not sure what else Hong Kong can do for you if you think that they've been lazy... I'm pretty such most people around here would kill for 10 completely new rides, a few overlays, several new shows and 5 new lands (most of which are/will be unique) all to be installed into a park.

Disneyland Paris, the theme park, was not overbuilt. The resorts were, and they are what caused a financial drain on the resort as a whole. HKDL was criminally underbuilt, so much so that it still hasn't recovered its reputation. I'm honestly not sure that the expansion - if it's all approved - will solve it either. HK locals are acutely aware of how grandiose and expensive SDL was and how HKDL looks in comparison. This expansion is a good start, but honestly, it needs must-see-cannot-miss material. The only attraction that fits the bill is the Avengers ride, and it is 5 years away.

I'm glad HKDL is getting a unique castle (I despise castle cloning in all forms) but I wish the new design was something bordering cohesive. The top looks like a bad Photoshop job and has no sense of style or architectural flow. It's just odd.

Anyway, DLP's problems had nothing to do with building a beautiful park with a solid attraction roster, everything to do with six ginormous and overpriced hotels outside of one of the world's most popular tourism cities.

 

[Howdy]

I generally don't tell people how to spend their money ... but you should stay elsewhere already unless you are getting at least 40% off value season rates. I don't get this immersion people mention today. No disrespect intended, but WDW is a mess of construction, highways, buses and sprawl. There certainly was a bubble in the 70s and 80s and even the 90s largely. There isn't now. You're just a prisoner of The Mouse. I hope you at least have a car and can head off-property.

No disrespect inferred. I totally agree with you. All of our recent trips have been with my son who is now 5 and loves staying at resorts where he gets to see statues of characters and the like. We always go off season and always use AP discounts, but still pay too much. I prefer driving to flying so we always have our own vehicle and end up driving to the parks every time that I don't intend to drink so staying of property is most likely the way we need to start going. The one place that I felt was truly worth the price was the campground, however. Nicest restroom facilities of any campground we have been to by a long shot. Last few trips I've ended up running to Publix mid week to replenish snacks and waters

 

[rushtest4echo]

Even with the list you shared, Hong Kong started so far behind in rides (ride defined as you being moved) that Shanghai will meet essential parity with Hong Kong by the end of this year. We know more is on the way, and I'm not going to kid myself by suggesting that Shanghai is just going to stand still until 2023.

Difference in cost between those two parks? One was moving into a brand new market, the other simply piggybacked off of the successes and failures of the other. Difference in local population (not counting mainlanders, who aren't welcome at HKDL) is also massive.

You don't happen to think that the attendance problems partially stem from the offerings?

No, I don't at all actually. Local attendance has continuously grown whereas mainlander attendance has tanked. Same thing has affected Ocean Park despite them dumping hundreds of millions of investment into the park to compete with HKDL.

Also you gave me a laugh, the huge attendance and spending problems that plagued a park that boosted parks revenue by 40%? Epcot wasn't a problem. It made WDW a destination.

Mid 80's EPCOT is what made Universal smell blood in Orlando's water.

The park has had every disadvantage by being tied to terrible ancillary businesses that have dragged it down.

Ancillary business is a problem (including food and merch inside the park- which was massively overbuilt just like the hotels), but if you remove the debt and licensing burden from DLP, they've still lost money almost every year since opening.

The Park has actually been pretty successful when it's properly managed and cared for. Which have been rare moments in its history.

The only time they've managed a profit was before the majority of their loans kicked in and when Disney zeroed out royalties- and even that didn't keep the park profitable.