A Spirited Perfect Ten

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I'm not saying "don't invest." I'm saying "don't get carried away with investment based on a current boom."
I don't look at it like getting carried away. I see it as making up for lost time. There was almost a decade post 9/11 through the "great recession" when heavy investment didn't make as much financial sense. The economy is recovered and WDW is doing really well. Now is the time to get expansions greenlit.
 
Mentality around here seems to be:
"90% occupancy at hotels, they need to expand"
Disney responds by building another hotel
"No, I meant less lucrative attractions that might drive attendance vs. a guaranteed stream of hotel guests to soak up the attendance gains that already happen without new attractions"

Disney seems to be the more logical party in that argument, yes?
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
^ You're operating under the impression that WDW is being "ignored", which is a laughable falsehood. They've outspent Universal Orlando for the past several years on projects that will do far more for the resorts health long term than any new rides. And they're spending tons on new rides/shows/parades too.



Probably some time after Avatar, Star Wars, Frozen and New Fantasyland have slammed the parks full for the next decade. They should probably just prepare for the huge gains in per-caps and attendance that will come from the billion+ plus that they're spending there already. Has anyone else dealt with full parking lots at the parks lately? It's happening everywhere except EPCOT. Dead give away that attendance isn't suffering. Honestly, we're debating why Disney isn't spending more on new rides when the parks (especially MK) are steadily increasing in attendance without much new "impressive" investment in new attractions. The better play is to be ready for when the impressive stuff in the pipeline that will clobber Universal; and they seriously need the infrastructure to deal with the onslaught of attendance that is going to be happening. They really don't need more of a reason to draw guests when hotel occupancy is at an all time high and attendance is steadily increasing. It's much smarter to ensure that the current visitors are satisfied enough to spend more money there than to go after more people that will just add to their infrastructure problems.
I don't think they should be looking to expand because WDW is hurting. They need to expand because it's doing so well. The best way to keep guests happy is to give them more to do. Eventually they will need a 5th gate, but they need to take care of DHS and EPCOT first.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
First time posters are "naive" and aren't credentialed until they amass enough posts I guess. I've been part of a few communities around the Disney Parks sphere since the 90's and grew bored with it all. It got harder to deal with once industry experience showed how woefully uninformed people are about how the parks are run and how they make decisions, and how those people deify people like Al Lutz for taking endless fortune-teller style shots in a general direction and then brag about how right they've been.

But I digress, probably too arrogant and quite naive of me to assume that actual credentials don't fly on internet forums. It's fine though, lively discussion never hurt anyone and as stated- it's the internet. Feel free to ignore my reasoning or statements as I am free to do to yours.

Hi.

This may seem rude, but exactly who are you?
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
I don't look at it like getting carried away. I see it as making up for lost time. There was almost a decade post 9/11 through the "great recession" when heavy investment didn't make as much financial sense. The economy is recovered and WDW is doing really well. Now is the time to get expansions greenlit.

Actually, in the middle of that recession when interest rates were low as hell, that would have been the opportune time.
 

wm49rs

A naughty bit o' crumpet
Premium Member
An additional red flag is dumping un-necessary capital into competing with the egos and free flow of cash over at Universal Creative instead of investing in the true driver and supporter of growth- infrastructure. But of course they're doing both and spending billions at WDW yet it's not enough to satisfy the 1% of Disney's market share that thinks WDW is terrible yet continues to visit annually or more. ;)
Mentality around here seems to be:
"90% occupancy at hotels, they need to expand"
Disney responds by building another hotel
"No, I meant less lucrative attractions that might drive attendance vs. a guaranteed stream of hotel guests to soak up the attendance gains that already happen without new attractions"

Disney seems to be the more logical party in that argument, yes?
It's truly amazing when someone can pop in for such a short time and speak to the collective mentality of over 800 people.

Actually it isn't....
 
5th gate is so far off of their radar... there's a reason they're pumping a billion into rebuilding Hollywood Studios and expanding AK into a full day park. Their carrying capacities once they're done near 2020 will create four "full day" parks instead of 2 full days + 2 half days. In essence, they're adding 4th park's worth of capacity to WDW which is what they'll need. Maybe after all of that is completed they'll move forward with a 5th gate, but it's just no necessary right now.

RIght now, they don't even have the authority to clear the kind of land that would be needed for another gate. Most of the property is protected wetlands. They have purchased a bit of wetlands surrounding the property so that they can begin the process of re-allocating their preserved areas within WDW's boundaries to that newly purchased land, which will enable the development of a 5th gate some day.

There's a good article on what I'm describing here: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-disney-mira-lago-20141108-story.html

But as the article concludes (correctly), this is on the order of decades, not years.
 
It's truly amazing when someone can pop in for such a short time and speak to the collective mentality of over 800 people.

Actually it isn't....

It was unfair of me to generalize like that, I apologize.

Simply because I've only been posting for a short while doesn't mean I haven't been reading the forums for years. I just felt that it was time to join the discussion rather than keep my statements to myself. I know, it's hard to deal with people that don't follow the herd, and it's always weird to see some new guy coming in making brash statements and disageeing. But yes, there is a prevailing mentality here most of the time, and it's not the least bit constructive or positive. I guess it makes for more lively discussion, but I'm sure it's off putting to the "uninitiated" which is why random new people feel the need to lash out and say something along the lines of "whats wrong with all of you people, cant you ever see a positive side to anything Disney does? Isn't this a fun hobby for you people?". Those people are promptly met with the common response of "if you don't like it here, leave". But I DO like it here, it's a fun outlet to see how the fan community is doing and what they're upset about this week. I have plenty of criticisms of my own, but the nonsense here about how Disney isn't investing in WDW is astounding.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Actually, in the middle of that recession when interest rates were low as hell, that would have been the opportune time.
True, but corporate borrowing rates are still pretty low. Actually, Disney has the cash anyway. Where they could have benefited was from cheaper labor and government incentives to add jobs. My company was very successful at putting Obama dollars to work.
 
Neither are Peter Pan, Small World or Tiki Rooms (though this comes the closest).

Ah yes, the 1% of nerds know that, but nobody outside that 1% does. The demographic that Disney is looking to fill their parks with has no idea that those rides differ in any significant ways. I guess I baited that one pretty easy though, I'll clarify my intent next time since it wasn't so obvious that I was generalizing in the exact manner that 99,900 out of 100,000 people that visit Magic Kingdom/Disneyland on an average day do. They could care less about ride systems and variations, they view them as "the same", just as they view Mermaid as "the same". To claim that Splash Mtn, Thunder Mtn, Mansion, Pirates (maybe), Peter Pan, Small World and the Tiki's aren't clones in the sense that people view them as the same ride is ridiculous. Heck, most lay-people think Tower of Terror is the same everywhere if you want to be honest.
 

wm49rs

A naughty bit o' crumpet
Premium Member
It was unfair of me to generalize like that, I apologize.

Simply because I've only been posting for a short while doesn't mean I haven't been reading the forums for years. I just felt that it was time to join the discussion rather than keep my statements to myself. I know, it's hard to deal with people that don't follow the herd, and it's always weird to see some new guy coming in making brash statements and disageeing. But yes, there is a prevailing mentality here most of the time, and it's not the least bit constructive or positive. I guess it makes for more lively discussion, but I'm sure it's off putting to the "uninitiated" which is why random new people feel the need to lash out and say something along the lines of "whats wrong with all of you people, cant you ever see a positive side to anything Disney does? Isn't this a fun hobby for you people?". Those people are promptly met with the common response of "if you don't like it here, leave". But I DO like it here, it's a fun outlet to see how the fan community is doing and what they're upset about this week. I have plenty of criticisms of my own, but the nonsense here about how Disney isn't investing in WDW is astounding.
I don't particular care if you've been reading the forums for one day, week, month, year, or decade. You're just another anonymous voice on an internet forum, and burnishing your supposed credentials doesn't make you any better than those whom you seek to criticize....
 

jlsHouston

Well-Known Member
Has anyone started digging through the Sony Wikileaks pages for Disney related stuff?

The best I could find so far is Bob Iger's personal email address and that Amy Pascal is a subscriber to @WDWFigment 's email updates.

No but my FB thread picked up something about the Marvel CEO telling the Sony CEO that a superhero movie starring a women is bad business idea...LOL because they can't write a good movie IMO
 
Criticism of people that don't use facts doesn't make me better, it just makes their arguments look poor compared to mine. :) People subjectively state how bad a ride is or how little money is being spent. When asked to quantify their concerns vs the facts, they get quite un-nerved. The only reason for bothering to mention credentials was to address the dismissive attitude directed toward me not "being a veteran" or something of that sort. But again, I guess I'm as guilty as them when I play along, so you're right in that regard. Yay internets, I guess. ;) Then again, a little objectivity and credibility would vastly improve the discourse around here.
 

DDLand

Well-Known Member
Disney reports declining attendance at DLR, yet Domestic Per Capita Guest Spending (PCGS) is up 7% because high-spending WDW Guests replaced low-spending DLR Guests.
Having thought about this for a while, I'm wondering if there's another side to this too. We know Disney has been becoming increasingly indifferent towards APs at Disneyland, eliminating free parking and raising prices. At the same time this has been going on, we also know that there's been a hotel boom in the Resort District, and that Disneyland's own hotels have been selling well too. What if there's a shift beginning to emerge where Disneyland itself saw a lower amount of APs, and a greater number of long distance. We know the long distance travelers are bigger spenders, and they also don't know how to be savvy with their money. It very well could be that Disneyland itself had a shift toward bigger spenders too. Swap out 100,000 guests for 80,000 guests that spend 40% more, and Disney is a happy camper.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Criticism of people that don't use facts doesn't make me better, it just makes their arguments look poor compared to mine. :) People subjectively state how bad a ride is or how little money is being spent. When asked to quantify their concerns vs the facts, they get quite un-nerved. The only reason for bothering to mention credentials was to address the dismissive attitude directed toward me not "being a veteran" or something of that sort. But again, I guess I'm as guilty as them when I play along, so you're right in that regard. Yay internets, I guess. ;) Then again, a little objectivity and credibility would vastly improve the discourse around here.
Opinions about rides are just that opinions.

Since you are new here and like facts I will suggest going back and reading some posts from @ParentsOf4 about the level of investment at WDW. He might even be nice enough to post a chart or graph again :). I'm pretty sure there are some people here who back up what they are saying with facts. Despite the appearance at times, there is quite a bit of objectivity and credibility as well. I have questioned people and disagreed with the majority thinking on many occasions, but I do it with respect and with facts when I have them. If it's just my opinion I'll state that too.
 

jlsHouston

Well-Known Member
What really gets me is the notion that it should rival stuff like Splash Mountain or Indiana Jones Adventure. It's a Fantasyland dark ride. What do you believe Disney was intending to do with Little Mermaid? If you expected an E-ticket, then you're exactly the person I was referring to when I couldn't ever hope to take you seriously. I was under the impression that their goals were something along the lines of: Maintaining the classic Fantasyland style dark ride, but use upgraded projection effects and new style animatronics along with an omni-mover ride system to help with capacity. Honestly, other than perhaps Hunny Hunt at Tokyo, is there a better dark ride in Fantasyland around the globe? Spare me with the sub 3 minute "classics" that either use press board cutouts or static figures.

Fantasyland dark rides that are at or above Little Mermaid's level-
Not Winnie the Pooh
Not Snow White
Not Peter Pan (possibly DL's after the update but we'll see)
Not Alice in Wonderland
Not Mr Toad's Wild RIde
Not Storybookland
Not Casey Jr

I guess you could say Small World is, but I don't even know if that's a fair comparison. I love them as much as the next guy, but lets get real- Mermaid is far more cohesive and impressive in comparison. And the notion that DIsney/Guests were "unhappy with it's presentation" so it needed to be closed/refurbished and changed- good for them. They corrected their errors and turned a good ride into a great one. It's been "plussed" within the first few years instead of having to wait decades for a update like Peter Pan, Indy, Mansion, Pirates, Small World and all of the other major Disney e-tickets have received as of late. They just got those issues ironed out when the rides creator still had the authority to correct them, instead of waiting 40 some odd years to do so like it took for Haunted Mansion's hatbox ghost. ;)

You think Little Mermaid is a better dark ride than Peter Pan?
 

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