A Spirited Perfect Ten

lazyboy97o

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
The Empress Lilly said:
Good point. As I was writing I felt the same tension. The frontier is not about the wilderness, but about the taming and bringing into civilisation of the wild. Even more specifically, about the tension at the crossroads of the two, in time and in space. There is a tension there with the nostalgic (in time) or escapist (in space) longing for the frontier in response to the rigid, artificial world of industrialisation.

Still a long way removed from Baxter's Jules Verne Land though...
Give me SWL over this monstrosity lurking behind Thunder's peaks:

DiscoveryModel.jpg
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But Discovery Bay wasn't pure industrialism. It is the fantasy of the technological progress seen in Frontierland and Main Street, USA. The fault I would lay at Baxter's feet is that his vision of Disneyland, as so clearly expressed by Disneyland Paris, is entirely stuck in narratives of the second half of the 19th century, a setting that Disney has now hammered to death to the point that Disney now build imitations of their own work and is the bland go-to for those seeking a "Disney" look.
 
The Empress Lilly

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
BrianLo said:
Modern Disney just produced Mystic Manor. Modern Disney produced Tokyo Disney Sea. Not to mention films like Inside Out and Guardians of the Galaxy that many would say qualifies as Star Wars-esque.

Old Disney would never produce a film like Star Wars. Modern Disney actually contains multiple studios now where films like Star Wars could conceivably be born.

Modern Disney is actually the safe haven where people actually want beloved IP to wind up. Now that's something no one would have said even 10 years ago.
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For all of the criticism of TFA, which I agree with, there still remains the point that I as a SW fan licked up the entire movie as if I were a starving poodle being fed a plate of yummie kimchee and mushroom frittata.

I hope that makes some sort of sense as a reply. ;)
 
the.dreamfinder

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
The Empress Lilly said:
For all of the criticism of TFA, which I agree with, there still remains the point that I as a SW fan licked up the entire movie as if I were a starving poodle being fed a plate of yummie kimchee and mushroom frittata.

I hope that makes some sort of sense as a reply. ;)
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Devin Faraci said it best, "JJ Abrams gave children ice cream for dinner"
 
I

indyumd

Well-Known Member
The Empress Lilly said:
Lucas did all of that, for better or for worse, by and large independent of Hollywood. One can resent a million aspects about Hollywood and still lead a financially successful studio. Or be an insufferable character. Independent is not a synonym for destitute and unsuccessful, even if the unsuccessful are eager to blame their failure on their being so very independent.

As for other things Lucas did: ILM, Pixar, THX, LucasArts, SW sequels not driven by easy pandering to fans. And movies from the great Willow to the even greater Howard the Duck.

Modern Disney will never produce Horizons or the Haunted Mansion, and modern Disney will never produce a Star Wars. Only a clone. Lucas is right about that. Although one can question whether he didn't see this coming, and if he did, why he persevered with the deal, if he feels so strongly about this.
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My point is that Lucas comes off bitter and wronged, but the way I see it he chose his path. He chose to keep tweaking the original trilogy for more than a decade. He chose to not start new paths. He chose to sell off his company. He chose all of this.

And, as far as Modern Disney goes, what evidence is there that they interfered with Lucasfilm at all?
 
TalkingHead

TalkingHead

Well-Known Member
the.dreamfinder said:
Devin Faraci said it best, "JJ Abrams gave children ice cream for dinner"
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I've agreed with much of what Devin has said about TFA.

It's also been interesting to see the critical reevaluations of TFA that have begun popping up. There was one on the Atlantic (I believe) in the last couple of days. Basically it argued that fans and detractors agree that the movie is recycled ideas and drenched in nostalgia, just disagreeing on whether that's a good thing.
 
BrerJon

BrerJon

Well-Known Member
In any other field people would be praising Lucas for not wanting his artistic vision compromised. Imagine if someone wrote a new Harry Potter book that Rowling didn't like, the fans would be scathing towards the new creators, not to her. But fans have decided Star Wars is their thing, and the vision for it that Lucas had is not something they want. Instead what people want is familiarity, safety, and focus groups, instead of technical innovation, experiments and different approaches to storytelling.

Lucas wanted his films to be distinguished from everything else in cinema, Disney wants their films to be indistinguishable from every other Star Wars. Lucas drew on hundreds of crazy influences, from poetry to mythology to war films to B-movies... Disney's Star Wars draws almost exclusively from Star Wars, and nothing else.

And that's what happens when you go from one man's artistic vision to a corporate focus group approach to storytelling. The fans may enjoy it more, you may sell more tickets, but in the same way the people who write modern James Bond novels will never be Ian Fleming, even if they're better writers, Disney's Star Wars may be beloved and make lots of money, but it sits in an entirely different artistic box from the six Star Wars films Lucas made, which is why he absolutely has the right to comment on the direction they've taken his work.
 
HMF

HMF

Well-Known Member
indyumd said:
My point is that Lucas comes off bitter and wronged, but the way I see it he chose his path. He chose to keep tweaking the original trilogy for more than a decade. He chose to not start new paths. He chose to sell off his company. He chose all of this.

And, as far as Modern Disney goes, what evidence is there that they interfered with Lucasfilm at all?
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*Shut down Lucasarts and sold the licence to EA
*Cancelled The Clone Wars
*Destroyed the Expanded Universe
*Dictated the creative direction for Episode VII
I could go on.
 
PhotoDave219

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
TalkingHead said:
I've agreed with much of what Devin has said about TFA.

It's also been interesting to see the critical reevaluations of TFA that have begun popping up. There was one on the Atlantic (I believe) in the last couple of days. Basically it argued that fans and detractors agree that the movie is recycled ideas and drenched in nostalgia, just disagreeing on whether that's a good thing.
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I'm fine with that. I like ice cream.
 
P

Prog

Well-Known Member
BrerJon said:
In any other field people would be praising Lucas for not wanting his artistic vision compromised. Imagine if someone wrote a new Harry Potter book that Rowling didn't like, the fans would be scathing towards the new creators, not to her. But fans have decided Star Wars is their thing, and the vision for it that Lucas had is not something they want. Instead what people want is familiarity, safety, and focus groups, instead of technical innovation, experiments and different approaches to storytelling.

Lucas wanted his films to be distinguished from everything else in cinema, Disney wants their films to be indistinguishable from every other Star Wars. Lucas drew on hundreds of crazy influences, from poetry to mythology to war films to B-movies... Disney's Star Wars draws almost exclusively from Star Wars, and nothing else.

And that's what happens when you go from one man's artistic vision to a corporate focus group approach to storytelling. The fans may enjoy it more, you may sell more tickets, but in the same way the people who write modern James Bond novels will never be Ian Fleming, even if they're better writers, Disney's Star Wars may be beloved and make lots of money, but it sits in an entirely different artistic box from the six Star Wars films Lucas made, which is why he absolutely has the right to comment on the direction they've taken his work.
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If JK Rowling wrote several books about the Marauders with no imaginative scope, extremely shallow characters, ludicrous dialogue, and obnoxious side characters, the fandom would stop giving a rat's about her opinion, too.
 
I

indyumd

Well-Known Member
BrerJon said:
In any other field people would be praising Lucas for not wanting his artistic vision compromised. Imagine if someone wrote a new Harry Potter book that Rowling didn't like, the fans would be scathing towards the new creators, not to her. But fans have decided Star Wars is their thing, and the vision for it that Lucas had is not something they want. Instead what people want is familiarity, safety, and focus groups, instead of technical innovation, experiments and different approaches to storytelling.

Lucas wanted his films to be distinguished from everything else in cinema, Disney wants their films to be indistinguishable from every other Star Wars. Lucas drew on hundreds of crazy influences, from poetry to mythology to war films to B-movies... Disney's Star Wars draws almost exclusively from Star Wars, and nothing else.

And that's what happens when you go from one man's artistic vision to a corporate focus group approach to storytelling. The fans may enjoy it more, you may sell more tickets, but in the same way the people who write modern James Bond novels will never be Ian Fleming, even if they're better writers, Disney's Star Wars may be beloved and make lots of money, but it sits in an entirely different artistic box from the six Star Wars films Lucas made, which is why he absolutely has the right to comment on the direction they've taken his work.
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If JK Rowling wrote 3 terrible books, then sold all of the rights to Harry Potter and declared on many occasions she was glad to be done with it, only to start complaining and whining when the new Harry Potter thing was more well-received than her own books to the point that she referred to them as slave owners, I'd have the same feedback for her.

If you, as an artist, don't want your work compromised, then don't sell it. Period.

Also, the lengths that people go to claim that Disney the corporation is meddling in the content decisions of these products is such a ridiculous stretch. There are so so so many things to rightfully criticize, but to think that Bob Iger is meddling in the storytelling for Lucasfilm and Marvel is ridiculous. There's no way a guy like Kevin Feige is gonna put up with that. He's clearly executing his vision and until it doesn't work, Disney will let him do it. They give their prize acquisitions the money, marketing and the freedom to make the content they want and expect them to deliver loads more money back. They aren't micro-managing it in the least.
 
I

indyumd

Well-Known Member
HMF said:
*Shut down Lucasarts and sold the licence to EA
*Cancelled The Clone Wars
*Destroyed the Expanded Universe
*Dictated the creative direction for Episode VII
I could go on.
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They didn't dictate the creative direction of Ep VII. They vetoed (parts of?) a previous story that they didn't feel would work. Based on the "story" Lucas told in Ep I-III, that was well within their rights. Nobody even knows how much changed or if the new trilogy would have been a steaming pile.
 
lazyboy97o

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
indyumd said:
Also, the lengths that people go to claim that Disney the corporation is meddling in the content decisions of these products is such a ridiculous stretch. There are so so so many things to rightfully criticize, but to think that Bob Iger is meddling in the storytelling for Lucasfilm and Marvel is ridiculous. There's no way a guy like Kevin Feige is gonna put up with that. He's clearly executing his vision and until it doesn't work, Disney will let him do it. They give their prize acquisitions the money, marketing and the freedom to make the content they want and expect them to deliver loads more money back. They aren't micro-managing it in the least.
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The issue with meddling isn't that it comes from the very top. Like with what happened at Disney Feature Animation, it is lover level executives who want credit for success that meddle and eventually mar a creative culture.
 

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