A Spirited Perfect Ten

Hakunamatata

Le Meh
Premium Member
The OUTER ring... yes... try looking towards the middle
It was behind construction walls not completed when I was there. But I'm sure it probably looks like this given the hysteria about it.
image.jpg


One might ask "what is this a picture of that hakunamapixiedustsnorter is showing us"? To which after sneezing I would answer/ the first picture of "concrete wasteland" that came up when I googled it.
 

cdd89

Well-Known Member
A work colleague returned to Epcot this summer for the first time since 1985.

To say he was disappointed is an understatement.

Needless to say Imagination was a revelation.

Thought I'd mention it.

This is an interesting point.

I'm guessing here that, after the once in a lifetime guests (who as we all know are Disney's #1 demographic), are the "once in 10/20 years guests". And those subsequent visits are likely very profitable for Disney since those guests likely splurge one way or another each time they come.

Memories may not be perfect, but if the average guest notices a significant downgrade from their previous visit 10 years ago, they might think twice about going again 10 further years down the line. I wonder how many people don't even blame WDW, and simply ascribe the change of heart to "growing out of Disney" or some such cliche?

There should have been a real benefit to the fact that I only became a Disney Parks enthusiast back in 2013 - the only way is up. Except even in that tiny amount of time they've chipped away at things I enjoyed from my first visit. (I kind of wish I postponed my first visit by 5 months so I never experienced WDW with traditional FastPass... I don't care what the guest surveys say, I accomplished more using that system even having totally under-researched things and gone in "as an idiot" than with the supposedly magical MM+/FP+ armed with a ton of research, and the system is hugely biased in favour of locals and others who visit for an evening, knock off some big attractions, and then leave).
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
This is an interesting point.

I'm guessing here that, after the once in a lifetime guests (who as we all know are Disney's #1 demographic), are the "once in 10/20 years guests". And those subsequent visits are likely very profitable for Disney since those guests likely splurge one way or another each time they come.

Memories may not be perfect, but if the average guest notices a significant downgrade from their previous visit 10 years ago, they might think twice about going again 10 further years down the line. I wonder how many people don't even blame WDW, and simply ascribe the change of heart to "growing out of Disney" or some such cliche?

There should have been a real benefit to the fact that I only became a Disney Parks enthusiast back in 2013 - the only way is up. Except even in that tiny amount of time they've chipped away at things I enjoyed from my first visit. (I kind of wish I postponed my first visit by 5 months so I never experienced WDW with traditional FastPass... I don't care what the guest surveys say, I accomplished more using that system even having totally under-researched things and gone in "as an idiot" than with the supposedly magical MM+/FP+ armed with a ton of research, and the system is hugely biased in favour of locals and others who visit for an evening, knock off some big attractions, and then leave).

The system is not biased towards the locals in any ways, shape or form. I assure you.
 

Disneyhead'71

Well-Known Member
I guess my point is that people need to be reasonable.
The last major attraction to open in any of the 4 WDW theme parks was 9 years ago. And the next one is still 16 months out. 11 years between E-Tickets in 4 theme parks is ridiculous.

Please stop making silly excuses for a multi-billion dollar multinational corporation.

They didn't build because they didn't have too. Not only did people keep flinging money at them, they have an army of fans that go online and "explain" to us the Disney is an innocent victim of their Wall Street overlords.

"Disney is a business!"

I guess when I was a kid they were an NGO.
 
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Darth Sidious

Authentically Disney Distinctly Chinese
I wonder if the Spirit came across this but China's remarks on Greece were entertaining. The kind of jabs they throw are quite great...

Premier Li Keqiang had the following to say (background info China owns some Greek ports thus having a stake in their future):

He desribed Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras as "like Phaeton, given the reins of the sun chariot only to lose control and nearly destroy the earth".

Chinese state media said the following earlier this year: Greece had "forgotten that it is the birthplace of Western civilisation which values the spirit of a contract the most".

What's great are the intellectual jabs made by referencing Greek mythology and democracy.

@WDW1974
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Yes but when you try to get into a discussion of corporate ethics, they go with the "but it's a business" rather than discussing whether or not that particular practice is right.

"But it's a business" seems to be the layman's catchall to justify poor behavior or decisions by corporate leadership.

I agree with you. But...

;)

Observing this back and forth (not just your post here, or any of your posts specifically) but this general back and forth between many different members over the past month or so as it has seemed to become a bit of a "thing" - once the memes start, you know it's a "thing" LOL.

Whenever those words are used together, they either are trying to explain something that it may actually apply to ("Disney is a business") or as a juvinile pejorative ("Dizzny iz a Bizzness" etc.) which just stalls the discussion.

The truth, like many things, is somewhat in between.

Why isn't there a new E-ticket every year? Because Disney is a business...publicly held...in the fiscal environment of 2015... one of the world's major corporations, and is so large at this point that folks tend to really over-idealize what they realistically could do.

That's why I find a good portion of the direct criticism thrown at Iger is completely unrealistic, because if the CEO of our dreams suddenly showed up - he'd still have to deal with the board - and if they started spending as lavishly as we wish as park-focused fans he would be out of a job in 3-5 years. It cannot be ignored that the WDC is a publicly held corporation. The stock market is really no more than a glorified gambling ring, and a few moves seen as wasteful or bad investments (even if long term they may not be) can make the stock price take a dive and reduce the companies value by billions.

On the other hand, yes, there is a bit of a "Disney Difference" - but this is no longer a company run by two brothers, and the WDC of today is of a scope that simply wasn't even conceivable back then. Yes, they should be holding to that spirit as much as they can, but on the other hand - if Walt were trying to build Disneyland today, it never would have gotten off the ground to begin with. It's not just "One Man's Dream" anymore - it's the wallets, pocketbooks, college funds, 401K's, and life savings of a very large portion of people who invest in the stock.

Wall Street is full of jokers, but remember - it's people who own this stock, and many suffer when stocks don't do well. It's not just Wall Street greed - for many folks, it's the only thing they have to prepare for the future (right or not, that's how it is - no retirement plans anymore, a 401k is really the best you can do).

So...there definitely is a valid time to say "Disney is a business" - and a valid time to say, "But, it's Disney" - but reducing them to memes, catchphrases, and rhetoric ignores the good points on both sides and really doesn't tell the actual situation by situation story.
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
Honestly, I don't believe it has anything at all to do with how much time it takes. When I see other posts suddenly thinking they will now have time to steam clean every inch of the room now, I just shake my head LOL.

If you have ever seen them make one, it takes seconds - since they know what they are doing, it doesn't take much longer than folding a towel the normal way for them. I think people envision it like the first time you do origami and it takes you ten minutes to make a swan because you are reading and trying to follow unfamiliar directions, vs. once someone who really knows what they are doing they can make one in ten seconds.

Disney has "discouraged" them for awhile because people actually DO complain when they have gotten them before and don't get them this time, for whatever reason. Really, people call/write to complain about them. And since not everyone knows how to do them, or cares to do them, it creates issues. It also seems to come from folks who don't see that often there is a correlation between leaving a tip for the housekeeping staff and them appearing. :)
I agree with you. But...

;)

Observing this back and forth (not just your post here, or any of your posts specifically) but this general back and forth between many different members over the past month or so as it has seemed to become a bit of a "thing" - once the memes start, you know it's a "thing" LOL.

Whenever those words are used together, they either are trying to explain something that it may actually apply to ("Disney is a business") or as a juvinile pejorative ("Dizzny iz a Bizzness" etc.) which just stalls the discussion.

The truth, like many things, is somewhat in between.

Why isn't there a new E-ticket every year? Because Disney is a business...publicly held...in the fiscal environment of 2015... one of the world's major corporations, and is so large at this point that folks tend to really over-idealize what they realistically could do.

That's why I find a good portion of the direct criticism thrown at Iger is completely unrealistic, because if the CEO of our dreams suddenly showed up - he'd still have to deal with the board - and if they started spending as lavishly as we wish as park-focused fans he would be out of a job in 3-5 years. It cannot be ignored that the WDC is a publicly held corporation. The stock market is really no more than a glorified gambling ring, and a few moves seen as wasteful or bad investments (even if long term they may not be) can make the stock price take a dive and reduce the companies value by billions.

On the other hand, yes, there is a bit of a "Disney Difference" - but this is no longer a company run by two brothers, and the WDC of today is of a scope that simply wasn't even conceivable back then. Yes, they should be holding to that spirit as much as they can, but on the other hand - if Walt were trying to build Disneyland today, it never would have gotten off the ground to begin with. It's not just "One Man's Dream" anymore - it's the wallets, pocketbooks, college funds, 401K's, and life savings of a very large portion of people who invest in the stock.

Wall Street is full of jokers, but remember - it's people who own this stock, and many suffer when stocks don't do well. It's not just Wall Street greed - for many folks, it's the only thing they have to prepare for the future (right or not, that's how it is - no retirement plans anymore, a 401k is really the best you can do).

So...there definitely is a valid time to say "Disney is a business" - and a valid time to say, "But, it's Disney" - but reducing them to memes, catchphrases, and rhetoric ignores the good points on both sides and really doesn't tell the actual situation by situation story.


But Disney was already spending billions of dollars on WDW...just on wristbands and not E-tickets
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
I agree with you. But...

;)

Observing this back and forth (not just your post here, or any of your posts specifically) but this general back and forth between many different members over the past month or so as it has seemed to become a bit of a "thing" - once the memes start, you know it's a "thing" LOL.

Whenever those words are used together, they either are trying to explain something that it may actually apply to ("Disney is a business") or as a juvinile pejorative ("Dizzny iz a Bizzness" etc.) which just stalls the discussion.

The truth, like many things, is somewhat in between.

Why isn't there a new E-ticket every year? Because Disney is a business...publicly held...in the fiscal environment of 2015... one of the world's major corporations, and is so large at this point that folks tend to really over-idealize what they realistically could do.

That's why I find a good portion of the direct criticism thrown at Iger is completely unrealistic, because if the CEO of our dreams suddenly showed up - he'd still have to deal with the board - and if they started spending as lavishly as we wish as park-focused fans he would be out of a job in 3-5 years. It cannot be ignored that the WDC is a publicly held corporation. The stock market is really no more than a glorified gambling ring, and a few moves seen as wasteful or bad investments (even if long term they may not be) can make the stock price take a dive and reduce the companies value by billions.

On the other hand, yes, there is a bit of a "Disney Difference" - but this is no longer a company run by two brothers, and the WDC of today is of a scope that simply wasn't even conceivable back then. Yes, they should be holding to that spirit as much as they can, but on the other hand - if Walt were trying to build Disneyland today, it never would have gotten off the ground to begin with. It's not just "One Man's Dream" anymore - it's the wallets, pocketbooks, college funds, 401K's, and life savings of a very large portion of people who invest in the stock.

Wall Street is full of jokers, but remember - it's people who own this stock, and many suffer when stocks don't do well. It's not just Wall Street greed - for many folks, it's the only thing they have to prepare for the future (right or not, that's how it is - no retirement plans anymore, a 401k is really the best you can do).

So...there definitely is a valid time to say "Disney is a business" - and a valid time to say, "But, it's Disney" - but reducing them to memes, catchphrases, and rhetoric ignores the good points on both sides and really doesn't tell the actual situation by situation story.

I mostly look at these things about being a good corporate citizen. For example, Is laying off your employees to replace them with foreign contractors a good thing?

Not from my POV.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
But Disney was already spending billions of dollars on WDW...just on wristbands and not E-tickets

Which were justified with "hard" projections about the directly attributable increase in guest spending - and profits - they would bring.

I agree, MM+ is going to go down as the worst mistake in the history of the entire company (I hope - if not, I dare not think of what they could do in the future worse) - but because of the "AK problem" the WDC went to a place that said "it doesn't matter if we make large capital investments, it won't increase profits".

Now, I have been a staunch opponent of that view for a decade - even when the average person here, even the experts, were saying, "The Orlando market is saturated, AK proved it". Universal has now proved that wrong.

All that said, as much as it was an epic mistake - on paper, I'm sure it looked pretty good. And wasn't originally slated to cost nearly what it did. To them, it looked like "Hey, we can modernize tech throughout the entire resort, and get people to start dumping more money at the same time! Win Win!" It was naive, it was deranged, if the company wasn't doing so well it could have been nearly catastrophic - but on paper, it looked like a solid investment based on the perception of the market in Orlando that just about everyone shared - that everyone who was going to go was already going, so we might as well get as much out of them as we can.

I can't emphasize enough how poor I think it turned out, and how I wish someone had the foresight to say "You know what, maybe it's what we built that was ineffective, not that we built" - but again, most people rallied against that idea until Potter came along and proved it wrong. It was an easy sell to stock holders because they could pinpoint "Guest spending will increase by XX%" - and since on paper, a ride or a land or whatever can't do that in the same tangible way.

The board seems to have woken up, and things are changing - and in hindsight, the answer seems like it was there all along - but you just can't ignore the historical context these decisions were made in.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
I mostly look at these things about being a good corporate citizen. For example, Is laying off your employees to replace them with foreign contractors a good thing?

Not from my POV.

What does that have to do with what I was saying? LOL.

The point is - people are descending into rhetoric over the phrase "Disney is a business" - and people on both sides are not analyzing the things they are talking about properly by engaging in the kind of dismissal that both use the phrase for. It's the Disney version of Goodwin's law.

And you know that the whole "good corporate citizen" thing was was never a real thing, right? It was an invention of corporations in the 1960's to enhance their images to keep government regulation at bay. It's a myth of the "Mad Men" era that was co-opted and romanticizes a notion that never really existed as more than a PR campaign to begin with.

Corporations have always sucked. ;)

We just pay far more attention now.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
What does that have to do with what I was saying? LOL.

The point is - people are descending into rhetoric over the phrase "Disney is a business" - and people on both sides are not analyzing the things they are talking about properly by engaging in the kind of dismissal that both use the phrase for. It's the Disney version of Goodwin's law.

And you know that the whole "good corporate citizen" thing was was never a real thing, right? It was an invention of corporations in the 1960's to enhance their images to keep government regulation at bay. It's a myth of the "Mad Men" era that was co-opted and romanticizes a notion that never really existed as more than a PR campaign to begin with.

Corporations have always sucked. ;)

We just pay far more attention now.

No, corporations are not good corporate citizens simply because they choose not to be.
 

Bairstow

Well-Known Member
Those of you who keep up with new developments in theme park rides ought to check out what opened today at Efteling: Baron 1898.
It's certainly one of the most ambitious dark ride/coaster hybrids ever built, with an original symphonic soundtrack, multiple special effects, at least one high-end Garner Holt AA, and a B&M diving machine at its heart.

(Turn on closed captioning for English subtitles)

 

Sonconato

Well-Known Member
No, the south end of the Hub is now open and on full display. Our January trip still had it under wraps... just like it had been for about a year and a half.

Your linked picture is a snapshot in portrait format using two of the very small trees as frames on the boundary of the image. It is also looking Westward towards Adventureland, which thankfully to date - has been spared the saw. This view creates a very distorted picture of the reality. The narrow field of view that portrait mode in this snapshot offers hides the truth... we live in a wide landscape world as seen by our eyes.

The garden in your photo has a couple of 15ft sparse trees, some topiary, and plenty of fake grass. That "garden" is surrounded on all sides by more concrete.

The Hub 2.0 features far too much open sky and unobstructed sightlines into places that were never intended to be seen long term. The foliage was intended to grow to isolate the spokes off the Hub as different paths leading to adventure. Now, the only thing on offer is clear views of the sky.

I love fireworks. I spend thousands of dollars each year perfecting the art of capturing them with my Disney trips; but, enough is enough at the MK. The need to cram more guests into a space that wasn't designed to handle the load has caused the wide open vistas on display now.

The pictures below are a more honest view of what has been lost and what is now on display.

Big sky country is not just out West these days. A trip to the MK is all you need to do. The wide open tundra is not very becoming of our 40+ year old lady.
Perfectly said!
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
No, the south end of the Hub is now open and on full display. Our January trip still had it under wraps... just like it had been for about a year and a half.

Your linked picture is a snapshot in portrait format using two of the very small trees as frames on the boundary of the image. It is also looking Westward towards Adventureland, which thankfully to date - has been spared the saw. This view creates a very distorted picture of the reality. The narrow field of view that portrait mode in this snapshot offers hides the truth... we live in a wide landscape world as seen by our eyes

And correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the entire point largely to provide a fenced off space for "special" guests who have FP+ or buy packages to get better fireworks viewing? It wasn't just a beautification project.
 

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