A Spirited Dirty Dozen ...

Thanks phoenicians

Well-Known Member
Spirited Quickees:

Is it true? Was EPCOT really fixed today? Disney thinks so.

Why is it that some fanbois think WDW is only the MK and EPCOT?

Weren't some people saying that Pixar's demise was imminent after Cars 2? Where are they?

I channeled that dude Derek Burgan over the weekend when I bought an Olaf hat at the local Disney outlet. It was 99 cents marked down from -- I kid you not -- $29.99. I wonder if it spontaneously combusts. Don't ask me why I bought it because I don't have a good answer.

I really feel badly for people taking Orlando vacations right now. Not because of all the death, dying and destruction there of late (although that stuff makes me sad and sick). Nope, simply because who takes a FL vacation in summer?!?

Do we have confirmation yet that Fantasy in the Sky is indeed back at DL this fall? No, SDL costs are not affecting the USA parks at all. (BTW, isn't this and the new hotel in Anaheim the kinda stuff that Micechat used to have months before others?)

Speaking of DL, checked park hours because a friend is headed there and see the labor saving cuts where DL is 8-11 daily, except midnight on Saturday and DCA is 8-9 daily. That is Shanghai-caused all the way.

Our pal Tom Bricker had two beautiful pics on the Tweeter from HKDL today that made me long for that park. But I also saw the park is open from 10:30-8:45. More #thanksBobIger ?

Going back to Finding Dory because its performance, as I said a few weeks ago, makes Alice Through The Looking Glass completely meaningless. This is at the heart of Disney's tent-pole strategy. They can literally have a few bombs a year and it won't matter at all. I wonder if The BFG will be the next or find its niche ...

I am going to an international theme park I've never been and wanted to go soon, but it isn't SDL (that likely will come around Halloween or next spring).

Gotta wonder if the Disney goodwill is starting to evaporate with their incredibly poor handling of both the Pulse massacre and the gator attack in social media. I guess that PhD isn't good for serious stuff, eh Dr. Blondie? I am sure you can start cupcake parties again in a week or two.

So, Bob Iger you put out a decent Star Wars film and you got your name on that Chinese dedication plaque. What are you going to do now?

Was it just me or were no members of the Disney family at the opening of this park? If true, btw, it would be a first. I was sure that at the very least Roy Patrick would show up as the family sellout.

I admit when I see low/no talented 20-somethings get hired into design houses like WDI or UNI Creative I do worry about what theme parks are going to look like in 10-15 years.

The Star Wars Experience at DL still bothers me more than anything that has ever happened in Anaheim.

How many Lifestylers who went to SDL are now selling park maps on eBay for $50 a pop?
Well that's intriguing...I really want to think something was green lit but I don't want to get excited. As for selling park maps for $50 I think Barnes and Noble is selling a whole parks map book for all 12 disney parks so I may just have to pick up a copy
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Anyone here buying those SDL tees they are hawking on the DisneyStore.com for $34.99 each? Come on ... be honest.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
It almost reflects poorly on the company that they have taken such dramatic measures since the incident. They're doing the right thing, but in the process they are admitting that they knowingly haven't been taking guest safety as seriously as they should have, which is inexcusable.

Until they start tossing Guests from property for feeding gators and make Guests at the resorts sign a document acknowledging the law, I won't believe they are doing the right thing. They are doing Gator Security Theater.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
@WDW1974 ate today at your favorite theme park restaurant mythos for the first time. Price was incredible for the meals. Service was horrible! 55 minutes to get our food from time we ordered. With not a word from s manger or server. Food was very good exept the fish tacos which were very skimpy.

I haven't been in about a year and a half now. But never had a bad meal there. I did have my first lousy meal at Lombard's Seafood Grille last month. Had a meal that should have been returned, but for some stupid reason I didn't ... got their specialty burger and it was like a patty that had been heated in a bag and/or covered in grease. Lousy.
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Well that's intriguing...I really want to think something was green lit but I don't want to get excited. As for selling park maps for $50 I think Barnes and Noble is selling a whole parks map book for all 12 disney parks so I may just have to pick up a copy

Yes. Disney is putting out a coffee table book of park maps this fall. Every fanboi will buy a copy!
 

Wikkler

Well-Known Member
Agreed, it feels like something is missing that HKDL has...maybe it's too different and we're not used to it yet?

I haven't been to SDL but just watching tons of footage so far. It does seem from the wide shots that there's a severe lack of trees.
The park has almost as much expansion room as content. Those huge spaces with no trees were intended as filler. How did they open a park with so much empty space without a transportation system? Disney built a train station with no train. Why? Right now, I can't come up with what else they would put in the front of the park (have any ideas, Disneyland Paris?) , but not a train station. In the one park that needs a train the most. This links into the kinetics issue.

Based on videos (I'm never going to this park. I just don't think I will be able to afford to travel to Asia), Tomorrowland is too damn far away from everything. Shanghai just really makes me want to armchair, but that wouldn't be appropriate here, now would it?
Disney is all about storytelling. And today that has sorta become a punchline because the elaborate backstories have taken prominence over actual substance. But Main Street USA has provided not only an entrance corridor, but a cohesive opening act for castle parks from Anaheim to Hong Kong. What is the storyline of Mickey Avenue? How does it set the tone for anything in such a small footprint? Does it exist simply to say DISNEY IP HERE? The sense of place ... does that even exist?
Eh, I don't think Main Street would be able to resonate with Chinese audiences, but Mickey Avenue does not feel like a satisfying replacement. The area just smells of strawberry frosted, when they should be going for plain glazed (I just compared theme parks to donuts. What am I doing with my life?). It's not even that coherent. The Mickey and Donald and Goofy cartoons co-exist with Classic Hollywood, Paris from Ratatouille, and whatever else I can't name at the moment.
Just spoke with a friend in the design business and the one big thing we were talking about was the disconnect there seems to be ... dissonance between so many elements in this park. And you hit on our top example with The Gardens of Imagination. I can understand wanting a garden-like area in Shanghai. Having lived/worked in Beijing, Hong Kong and Guangzhou, I know how rare park areas can be and how beloved they are culturally. But I don't get this area ... this land at all. And isn't the Marvel 'experience' thing also considered to be in this land? Either way, all of this stuff just doesn't fit into any cohesive whole.
Gardens of Imagination. What on earth do Fantasia, an American circus, a Princess Sorority House and Fuijan have in common? And why is Fujian so important that it was chosen to be the "distinctly Chinese" sycophancy for this land?
Someone must have too much Imagination. Seriously, though, the connecting thread is just one of those Disney buzzwords. Either "fantasy" or "magic" or "dreams"... pick one. Problem is, these isolated elements don't even have the same tone. I get that the parade didn't need to go down the entrance corridor, because based on what I know of Magic Kingdom at night, it's a nightmare, but maybe try to incorporate the parade route into the lands instead of just making a hub that's one-fourth of the park. This "land" doesn't really have style or substance.
When I say that Tomorrowland is a disorganized mess, I am not referring to the aesthetics or attraction line up. Spatial organization is about how spaces are created, how program elements are situated and how people move about the space. Tomorrowland ignores six decades of good theme park design, but that should not be shocking given its lead (whose Mark VII project started with telling Bob Gurr to pound sand and ended with a monorail fleet one short that did not fit on the beam way and had no ventilation). Since I have made similar comments and been asked to expand on them elsewhere I am going to take the long way around to answering this question so that I can repost it where appropriate.

In the design of architectural spaces there are two primary concepts relating to how objects (most typically walls) shape space: space making objects and objects in space. The classic example of space making objects are old city squares or typical urban streets. They are well defined in the boundaries and image by their surroundings. An object in space would be something like a barn sitting in a field, the expanse is what really defines that place. Theme parks are very much built around the definition of space, space is where theme is expressed and the experience of a theme park is one of moving through a carefully choreographed series of spaces that create an emotional resonance.

In order to handle crowds Disney's strategy has typically been to expand the space. At the EPCOT Center this worked because Disney rather fully embraced the notion of an object in space. Each pavilion is a discrete entity and the intended focus of one's experience. Walking through Future World or around World Showcase is intentionally a secondary experience. The space works to define the separation. Even if World Showcase was built out each pavilion would still surround the large walkway and massive lagoon, and entering this large space would still occur in between the experience of each pavilion.

At Tokyo Disneyland, trying to fit the larger spaces into the traditional Disneyland framework has created a degree of awkwardness. There are large corridors that plow through the park and the experience is somewhat disconnected. This disconnect is most notable with Westernland where there are just too many conflicting notions of scale that still don't quite work well even when the expanse of the frontier would be a desirable experience. Potentially learning from their weirdness, the Euro Disneyland project properly rethought crowd management by introducing more variety to the means of moving about the park. The most famous example of this is the arcades which flank Main Street, USA but how many people realize that Liberty Arcade is part of a larger series of covered walkways which extend into Frontierland proper?

Shanghai Disneyland takes the large walkway strategy of Tokyo Disneyland and turns it up to 11 by trying to combine the World Showcase strategy. This though is a contradiction. A themed land is not a series of discrete experiences but one singular experience. A strong land acts as one and is therefore most suitable to defined space. One moved amongst and along the objects which define the space, which define the theme. The lands of Shanghai Disneyland have no definition. Imagine Main Street, USA as only half of its western side and the rest all being open space. The park throughout lacks definition. Objects sit in relation to little else and are supposed to be connected with other objects that off in the distance (a situation which will only grow worse as the foliage matures). This openness of space is made worse (most notably on Mickey Ave and Fantasyland) by overly reducing the scale of the buildings. Forced perspective (while often cut short to only be such) is not just reducing the heights of upper levels of a building. That is merely a means and it is in fact supposed to be an illusion. Effective forced perspective as traditionally used by Disney creates the illusion of multiple levels without such levels actually being habitable. Throughout Shanghai Disneyland such illusions do not exist. The upper floors are clearly way to be small for their to be occupied space. The result of buildings that are too small in very large spaces is that the non-human scale of both the building and the surrounding space is emphasized.

Finally, we get to the mess that is Tomorrowland. Like the rest of the park it follow the open space and defined edge pattern. It avoids the overly diminutive buildings issue but does't really fix them by lacking any sort of real definition to its scale. The land is the tossed into a blender by introducing the Armchair Imagineer's dream of multiple levels. Multiple levels look cool. They are part of the kinetics of a vibrant city as there is an interplay in the activation of horizontal and vertical space. Multiple levels though are not a big thing in theme parks, even when crowds are a concern, because they jumble the explicit shaping of the guest experience. Notions of push and pull, weenies, etc. all get complicated when there are many ways about and are seemingly tossed aside in Tomorrowland. There is no clear distinct path of travel. There is no clear means of moving about the land. It is a massive plaza and edge which abuts another plaza. There is no hierarchy of forms or places, too much tries to be important and it muddles the whole. There is no clear path that takes one directly through the land. TRON Lightcycle Power Run is best visible and accessed coming from the south (Gardens of Imagination / Mickey Ave) but this is practically a dead end situation. This is the upper level walkway that also access the main dining facility of rate land and the Jet Packs and attraction but it has no real connection the massive plaza below. Yes, there are stairs, but they are not part of the means of travel. This lack of hierarchy is then repeated by the lower level which lacks strong edges to give it definition and must be navigates entirely by signage. The light cycles are not dominate in view when entering and when they do finally asset themselves as the marquee attraction he design suggest an entry far removed while the person and object of desire are so physically close.

On the whole the park has failed at its organization and employed no well designed weenies. Since the edge condition is the dominate defining characteristic there is little to no visual hierarchy as everything sits rather independently. The Princess Sorority House and Roaring Mountain are the two most clearly visible landmarks throughout the park but also fail to act as weenies. There is no clear means of getting to either. The Gardens of Imagination (I guess random stuff tossed together is now considered imaginative) object direct movement towards Enchanted Storybook Castle. Roaring Rapids' entrance is not at all near its mighty peak, but would be passed on the journey if entering from the Gardens of Imagination. Treasure Cove is the only land that really starts to create any sense of defined space and its spectacular E-Ticket attractions turns its back on this peacemaking with the entrance instead located at the edge and facing Fantasyland.
What a giant post, but it's definitely a good one. I'm not sure if I should be glad that I can't pick into your thoughts on it, it's just too daunting. You seem like a very intelligent individual. I wonder if you've ever tried armchair Imagineering? I mean the Ideal Buildout-type stuff, not the "put GotG in Epcot" type stuff that you see in General Discussion.
 

Wikkler

Well-Known Member
Here, since I know you've been waiting (I have anyway) is @WDWFigment's views on SDL after spending its first three days there:

http://www.disneytouristblog.com/shanghai-disneyland-opening-day-impressions/

Hint: they are largely positive, but there are small criticisms. Don't have time to add more and would rather discuss if Tom ever returns here (they are in HKDL now). He needs to be given some fanboi cred award as it would appear he is going to be the First Lifestyler in the History of Lifestylers (that must date back over a decade by now) to visit every Disney park in the world in a single calendar year IF he makes it to Paris (and I believe he is planning on running their half marathon in the fall). It takes a lot to be able to do that. Only one time did I make it to four of five. Now six of six is saying something ... but maybe he should have to visit Aulani, Vero Beach, Hilton Head and take at least one cruise to wear the tiara? :devilish::greedy::D
Is there a lifestyler willing to visit all 12 Disney parks, both water parks, Aulani, Vero Beach, Hilton Head, go on all the cruises, and do all the Adventures by Disney in a single year? (Is that possible?)
 

Wikkler

Well-Known Member
Yeah maybe I'm being harsh.

Was kind of expecting more to happen along the 2 rivers though rather than just a quick trip into the volcano (it possibly still will, I know it's artwork). I'm intrigued by the faster current one as Roas Rapids are an absolute delight at Aquatica.
The lazy river at Blizzard Beach goes through Mt. Gushmore through a cave, with cold dripping water from the stalactites.
Can't wait to see if they do something like this for the volcano... and a faster one could be interesting (Water Country USA has a fast one IIRC), but I'd want them to make the bottom out of a scuff-proof but also slip-proof material... if that's possible.
 

Wikkler

Well-Known Member
I was debating on starting a thread of my own on this subject (since we only have about 16 now). Mine would be titled 'Should George Kalogridis Be Fired After Child's Death?' ... I decided against it because my heart just isn't into this at all. I also think the overreaction by Disney and the fan community is a bit sad and predictable.
Overreaction by Disney and the fan community? Do you know who's really overreacting? The media. CNN, Fox News, TMZ, MSNBC are all milking this one tragedy even more than they did for Harambe the gorilla. Let's focus on one child's death, laugh at how neglectful the parents obviously must have been for their child to die, because everything that happens is the parent's fault (Flu? Parent's fault, and they should be ashamed). Let's focus on one child instead of the many children that are dying in Syria and Iraq. Let's focus on this one story that would only be mentioned on Channel 13 if it didn't have that giant evil corporation's name on it. Disgusting.
 

NearTheEars

Well-Known Member
Spirited Quickees:

Is it true? Was EPCOT really fixed today? Disney thinks so.

Why is it that some fanbois think WDW is only the MK and EPCOT?

Weren't some people saying that Pixar's demise was imminent after Cars 2? Where are they?

I channeled that dude Derek Burgan over the weekend when I bought an Olaf hat at the local Disney outlet. It was 99 cents marked down from -- I kid you not -- $29.99. I wonder if it spontaneously combusts. Don't ask me why I bought it because I don't have a good answer.

I really feel badly for people taking Orlando vacations right now. Not because of all the death, dying and destruction there of late (although that stuff makes me sad and sick). Nope, simply because who takes a FL vacation in summer?!?

Do we have confirmation yet that Fantasy in the Sky is indeed back at DL this fall? No, SDL costs are not affecting the USA parks at all. (BTW, isn't this and the new hotel in Anaheim the kinda stuff that Micechat used to have months before others?)

Speaking of DL, checked park hours because a friend is headed there and see the labor saving cuts where DL is 8-11 daily, except midnight on Saturday and DCA is 8-9 daily. That is Shanghai-caused all the way.

Our pal Tom Bricker had two beautiful pics on the Tweeter from HKDL today that made me long for that park. But I also saw the park is open from 10:30-8:45. More #thanksBobIger ?

Going back to Finding Dory because its performance, as I said a few weeks ago, makes Alice Through The Looking Glass completely meaningless. This is at the heart of Disney's tent-pole strategy. They can literally have a few bombs a year and it won't matter at all. I wonder if The BFG will be the next or find its niche ...

I am going to an international theme park I've never been and wanted to go soon, but it isn't SDL (that likely will come around Halloween or next spring).

Gotta wonder if the Disney goodwill is starting to evaporate with their incredibly poor handling of both the Pulse massacre and the gator attack in social media. I guess that PhD isn't good for serious stuff, eh Dr. Blondie? I am sure you can start cupcake parties again in a week or two.

So, Bob Iger you put out a decent Star Wars film and you got your name on that Chinese dedication plaque. What are you going to do now?

Was it just me or were no members of the Disney family at the opening of this park? If true, btw, it would be a first. I was sure that at the very least Roy Patrick would show up as the family sellout.

I admit when I see low/no talented 20-somethings get hired into design houses like WDI or UNI Creative I do worry about what theme parks are going to look like in 10-15 years.

The Star Wars Experience at DL still bothers me more than anything that has ever happened in Anaheim.

How many Lifestylers who went to SDL are now selling park maps on eBay for $50 a pop?

I think their Pulse response turned out pretty well. CMs have said that it seemed like their first move was to handle it internally, then publicly. And they participated in the vigil at the castle a few days ago.

As far as the gator ...
 

MonkeyHead

Well-Known Member
Iger couldn't be bothered to tear himself away from Shanghai for two seconds but Comcast NBC Universal sent literally every top level executive to Orlando for their Team Member vigil.

Comcast CEO Brian Roberts
CEO of NBC Universal Steve Burke
Head of Universal Studios Ron Meyer
Of course Tom Williams, Bill Davis and John Spouls of the Parks division.
(Also heads of Telemundo and The Golf Channel as employees of theirs were also affected)

But Iger sure did send Kalogridis home... only after the gator attack.

View media item 1240
 

zengoth

Well-Known Member
I really feel badly for people taking Orlando vacations right now. Not because of all the death, dying and destruction there of late (although that stuff makes me sad and sick). Nope, simply because who takes a FL vacation in summer?!?

When passholder re-up came around and summer became "blacked-out", we were like: "Please and thank you" because it was always difficult justifying an annual pass and never using them for 3 or 4 months. If we need to get a Disney fix, there's always the Disney Springs Mall where there's a bar every few feet. Summer used to mean hiding out in the Hall of Presidents or American Adventure for the cool and dark during midday.
 

yeti

Well-Known Member
Better Image of the layout.
ClbLE-DUsAAmEBM.jpg

It looks...well, like a water park.
 

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