A Spirited Dirty Dozen ...

[thehowiet]

Don't compare the party to the ap block-out. The point of the party analogy is addressing the point of if advance notice or not makes a difference. The statement of "Would you not be upset by this because they announced it up front? I don't know about you, but I'd be furious. Yes, I could just not go to WDW but that's not the point."

I still don't see how the MYW scenario presented by the poster you quoted is "exactly what happens for the private parties and things like Halloween." Yes there is advance notice, but the difference IMO is that in one scenario you're prevented from entering the park completely with standard admission media, in the other you are only prevented from visiting during specific hours.

 

[flynnibus]

New park attractions are much more enticing than the parties. Of course we'd be angrier about being blocked from one over the other. Plus, it's Star Wars.

Sometimes we need to look beyond ourselves to understand the reason for a change. Wouldn't you be ed if your vacation was "ruined" by extra ordinary crowds? Maybe you think 4hr lines are cool topics to talk about... But no one wants them in the parks. And the ap access is a huge contributor to that scenario happening. Because an ap can dedicate that kind of time when visiting just for a new attraction... And they can disrupt normal crowd patterns because of their flexibility. The ap visitor has significant advantages that alters demand in the parks.

These surges are unhealthy for the parks and visitors. Working to spread that load is a good thing for everyone in the long run.

 

[the.dreamfinder]

What if there was an AP lottery where chunks of APs would be allowed to visit during the blackout period in small enough numbers as to minimize capacity headaches?

 

[BrianLo]

Annual Passholders are not just locals. One is very quickly worthwhile for that annual vacationer you identified as so important.

Your excusing Disney for wanting to rob Peter to pay Paul simply because they sat on their laurels for so long and now have an attraction capacity issue. And as @lazyboy97o mentioned, not all AP'ers live in Orlando, or even Florida.

I think you guys made a great point, admittedly I was thinking about this more in the context of Disneyland. WDW can probably get away just fine without blackouts, it's Disneyland that is going to be the nightmare. The problem, from a crowding perspective, is locals. Ones who will visit Star Wars Land specifically for 10 out of the first 30 days of operation.

Of course, I'd assume the onsite guests/DVC would have access, even with an AP. So in that sense those vacationers would be exempt. Again, the benefit of an AP is price. I know they used to command so much more and honestly they were fantastic value. But why should a discount ticket medium command anything more or less than a price benefit? They aren't meant to reward loyalty, they were meant to prop up the off seasons with relatively massive entrance discounts.


The hotels are completely different situation @wdisney9000. They are incredibly overpriced and the loyalty returns from them are awful. For me there are much better options, even within the boundaries of WDW, with proper loyalty programs and cheaper prices to boot. I won't play devil's advocate with the hotels, because I personally think they are indefensible. In my mind they never justified the price tags they have had. Even when they were significantly cheaper.

I may stay on property for the first time ever next year, but that will be via points at the Swolphin, thanks to the much more rewarding SPG program. The loyalty 'program' for staying in Disney hotels is essentially non-existent. It totally sucks, I agree!

As per TDO underinvesting and creating this mess? Absolutely. I'm only trying to talk about one thing though: a deeply discounted ticket medium being briefly blocked out of the newest thing to keep crowds under control. That I see the logic of.

 

[GoofGoof]

Myw buyers don't visit for two months... But the party blocks do
The point is still the same... If you want that "full" value you thought you were owed... You had to buy up beyond your initial pass.

This whole back and forth is an emotional only argument

I'm not sure what you are even saying at this point.

There is really no comparison between blocking out AP holders from a park for several months after something new opens and a ticket holder losing out on 2 hours from 7 to 9PM at MK for a special ticket party.

 

[Mike S]

Sometimes we need to look beyond ourselves to understand the reason for a change. Wouldn't you be ****ed if your vacation was "ruined" by extra ordinary crowds? Maybe you think 4hr lines are cool topics to talk about... But no one wants them in the parks. And the ap access is a huge contributor to that scenario happening. Because an ap can dedicate that kind of time when visiting just for a new attraction... And they can disrupt normal crowd patterns because of their flexibility. The ap visitor has significant advantages that alters demand in the parks.

These surges are unhealthy for the parks and visitors. Working to spread that load is a good thing for everyone in the long run.

Wouldn't you be ed if you were told you can't experience the newest thing anymore like you have for years unless you pay up more than you already did for an AP?

Big crowds come with the territory of seeing something "first," and when it comes to Star Wars it'll happen whether APs are there or not. DHS will very easily hit capacity many times because of it. There's no avoiding it. No one should be cut out because they're not paying enough and let's be honest with ourselves that that's really what this whole thing is about. All you have to do is look at their recent addiction to upcharges and having us pay more for less. The resort with the real AP problem is Disneyland, not Walt Disney World.

 

[GoofGoof]

Wouldn't you be ****ed if you were told you can't experience the newest thing anymore like you have for years unless you pay up more than you already did for an AP?

Big crowds come with the territory of seeing something "first," and when it comes to Star Wars it'll happen whether APs are there or not. DHS will very easily hit capacity many times because of it. There's no avoiding it. No one should be cut out because they're not paying enough and let's be honest with ourselves that that's really what this whole thing is about. All you have to do is look at their recent addiction to upcharges and having us pay more for less. The resort with the real AP problem is Disneyland, not Walt Disney World.

And like I said before, if this is just about crowd control and making things more enjoyable for everyone then why not just sell less one day tickets for DHS. The simple answer is more money. Disney would have no problem jamming every AP holder into SW Land as long as they pay to upgrade to the premium AP or buy an additional one day ticket.

 

[flynnibus]

Wouldn't you be ****ed if you were told you can't experience the newest thing anymore like you have for years unless you pay up more than you already did for an AP?

Did you not read the part that said "look beyond yourself"?

You also need to accept that the ap program is not a perpetual program. You don't get the same perks every year. Something people just need to accept as things change.

Big crowds come with the territory of seeing something "first," and when it comes to Star Wars it'll happen whether APs are there or not.

Popularity will be there of course... That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to manage the situation.

The resort with the real AP problem is Disneyland, not Walt Disney World.

Were those lines for frozen just our imagination?

At dlr the ap surge is much worse on operations on the park... But wdw has similar trends that can be addressed.

 

[flynnibus]

And like I said before, if this is just about crowd control and making things more enjoyable for everyone then why not just sell less one day tickets for DHS. The simple answer is more money.

One day pass people aren't generally the ones who will get in a line that is 3-4hrs long. And if they want to pay that premium to do so... That's in disney's favor.

The unchecked access the ap program offers is a thorn in disneys side. Putting limits in opens lots of possibilities that serve both Disney and the entire audience.... Except those corner cases willing to do anything to be there. And in those cases... They'll whine and then still buy whatever access they need to do.

 

[GoofGoof]

One day pass people aren't generally the ones who will get in a line that is 3-4hrs long. And if they want to pay that premium to do so... That's in disney's favor.

The unchecked access the ap program offers is a thorn in disneys side. Putting limits in opens lots of possibilities that serve both Disney and the entire audience.... Except those corner cases willing to do anything to be there. And in those cases... They'll whine and then still buy whatever access they need to do.

So why sell annual passes. Just cancel the whole program and sell regular tickets.

It seems to me that you are making this about lifestylers or people who spend their lives at WDW. The vast majority of AP holders don't fit that description. Like we were talking about earlier, lots of WDW AP holders are just people who visit for a few weeks each year that live nowhere near FL.

 

[thehowiet]

Did you not read the part that said "look beyond yourself"?

You also need to accept that the ap program is not a perpetual program. You don't get the same perks every year. Something people just need to accept as things change.



Popularity will be there of course... That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to manage the situation.



We're those lines for frozen just our imagination?

At dlr the ap surge is much worse on operations on the park... But wdw has similar trends that can be addressed.

Sounds to me like Disney is dealing with the operational repercussions of not gradually increasing park capacity. If people want to make excuses for that, that's cool. I'll continue to call them out for their actions, or in this case, their inaction.

It's really hard to feel bad for the position they're in with regard to APs when they introduce monthly payment options to increase sales and then have to manage what comes along with that increase in sales. They have no problem collecting the money any way that they can, they just don't like their end of the transaction.

And of course the AP perks are not perpetual. But that's not a very strong defense IMO. It's about as strong as the "Disney is a business" argument used so frequently by some folks to justify every one of their decisions.

 

[Mike S]

Did you not read the part that said "look beyond yourself"?

You also need to accept that the ap program is not a perpetual program. You don't get the same perks every year. Something people just need to accept as things change.

I am looking beyond myself. I am looking at all the passholders that will be royally screwed by this asinine decision should it go through.

Popularity will be there of course... That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to manage the situation.

There are better ways to go around it other than stabbing your most loyal fans in the back.

Why not give us exclusive previews for a month or two before the official opening so some of us are less compelled to go later when the tourists come?

We're those lines for frozen just our imagination?

At dlr the ap surge is much worse on operations on the park... But wdw has similar trends that can be addressed.

I've read that DLR has around 1 million APs. I haven't ever seen a number for WDW but I doubt it's that high.

 

[Bairstow]

I am assuming you buy multi-day Magic your way tickets when you visit WDW. What if they said today that when Star Wars Land opens anyone with a regular multi-day ticket is blacked out from visiting DHS. You have to either buy an additional one day ticket to DHS for $100+ or buy a premium multiday ticket that includes DHS but costs twice as much as your regular pass and the price of your ticket will still be the same even though it's now only for 3 parks instead of 4. Would you not be upset by this because they announced it up front?

Of course not.
As long as I know what my options are up front, I'd either pay to see the park expansion in a way that makes value sense to me, or wait for an option that did.

People aren't somehow entitled to a good deal next year just because they got a good deal this year.

 

[flynnibus]

Sounds to me like Disney is dealing with the operational repercussions of not gradually increasing park capacity. If people want to make excuses for that, that's cool. I'll continue to call them out for their actions, or in this case, their inaction.

That's a red herring. The load we are talking about here is not regular demand in pattern or volume. It is extra oridinary and would exist regardless of how much capacity was in the rest of the park because the demand is related to that attraction... Not the omission elsewhere. (As proven by the lines balancing out after the opening surge goes away).

And of course the AP perks are not perpetual. But that's not a very strong defense IMO. It's about as strong as the "Disney is a business" argument used so frequently by some folks to justify every one of their decisions.

The justification is simply "because it was that way before" - for a product that is constant evolution... That is a pathetic thing to cling to. The 365 day AP is a dinosaur and I expect it to be gone entirely in the next 5 years.

You can still give people discounts and incentives to come back often without giving up all control. Disney has knobs everywhere to shape visiting patterns... Except when it comes to the higher end APs.

 

[flynnibus]

I am looking beyond myself. I am looking at all the passholders that will be royally screwed by this asinine decision should it go through.

There are better ways to go around it other than stabbing your most loyal fans in the back.

Why not give us exclusive previews for a month or two before the official opening so some of us are less compelled to go later when the tourists come?

I've read that DLR has around 1 million APs. I haven't ever seen a number for WDW but I doubt it's that high.

You'll never be confused with being objective... That's for sure

 

[GoofGoof]

Of course not.
As long as I know what my options are up front, I'd either pay to see the park expansion in a way that makes value sense to me, or wait for an option that did.

People aren't somehow entitled to a good deal next year just because they got a good deal this year.

So you would have no problem if they just doubled ticket prices next year as long as they announce it up front? What you are basically saying is nobody should be upset with a policy like this as long as they knew about it in advance. the advance notice to me is just about irrelevant. My issue is with the decision itself.

 

[GoofGoof]

That's a red herring. The load we are talking about here is not regular demand in pattern or volume. It is extra oridinary and would exist regardless of how much capacity was in the rest of the park because the demand is related to that attraction... Not the omission elsewhere. (As proven by the lines balancing out after the opening surge goes away).



The justification is simply "because it was that way before" - for a product that is constant evolution... That is a pathetic thing to cling to. The 365 day AP is a dinosaur and I expect it to be gone entirely in the next 5 years.

You can still give people discounts and incentives to come back often without giving up all control. Disney has knobs everywhere to shape visiting patterns... Except when it comes to the higher end APs.

Honestly, it makes more sense to me to just eliminate APs then to do what this survey suggested. I don't see it happening though.

Ironically, the higher end APs would be exempt from this type of blackout so by doing this they may be pushing even more people into those products.

 

[Bairstow]

So you would have no problem if they just doubled ticket prices next year as long as they announce it up front? What you are basically saying is nobody should be upset with a policy like this as long as they knew about it in advance. the advance notice to me is just about irrelevant. My issue is with the decision itself.

It's a theme park, not the grocery store or a hospital.
If they raise their prices too high, people can, should, and will chose not to go, without feeling somehow victimized.

 

[Travel Junkie]

The real issue as people have pointed out is the DLR AP population and it will likely take care of itself when SWL opens there. Assuming that it either opens around the holidays or during the summer, all but the highest end AP's will be blacked out anyway.

DLR has been moving that direction already. Several of the new things recently opened when lower tier AP's were already blacked out and all indications point to the upgraded Fantasmic will open during one of these times as well. It's a perk for owning the top tier pass to be able to go opening day.

Now if they black out the top tiers when SWL opens at either DLR or DHS then I would have an issue with it, but if it is only the lower tiers that can't go the opening few days day or weeks then I'm ok with it.

 

[flynnibus]

Honestly, it makes more sense to me to just eliminate APs then to do what this survey suggested. I don't see it happening though.

There are lots of things they could do that would replace the 365day passes and still satisfy the majority of wdw pass holders... Especially the non Orlando people. "All you can eat" really isn't the advantageous form for most people. Breaking the inertia and backlash would be the hardest part.