A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Bob has done an incredible job turning the company around, but parks are not his strong suit. He talks about parks fitting into the equation as a place where content created in other divisions becomes immersive experiences. What he doesn't seem to understand, or P+R perhaps, is that parks ARE content. They sell themselves, when they are good. That Imagineers are content creators. This seems to be completely foreign to everybody. DCP, in comparison to the studios, the animation divisions, lucasfilm, marvel, and WDI, doesn't create content; they just capitalize on it. They are completely soulless and couldn't survive without content created elsewhere. Parks are mistaken as an extension of DCP, a place to extend revenue from the film platform. But it is both that and a place where content is created and where creative leaders need to be (and aren't) taken seriously. I want what's best for the parks, but a few blunders might be necessary to really get the company to change course. Pixar Fest hopefully tanks summer attendance, though I doubt it will. Parks are too expensive and permanent to make mistakes in. And ironically the mistakes they continue to make are driven by frugality. What goes around comes around!

Parks are not viewed as an art form. They are viewed as low-brow and derided even from people who work at the highest levels of Disney. You haven't lived until you've listened to Andy (Georgie K's partner and a TDO exec) act akin to that snobby friend of yours that finds out that you like an occasional Big Mac and never lets you forget that you are a lower life form because of it. ... Look at it this way: would Iger have ever put Chappie in charge of the Studios or ESPN? You know the answer. But any exec can simply run the theme park empire. Chappie is a balder, brasher Paul Pressler 2.0.
 

nevol

Well-Known Member
Parks are not viewed as an art form. They are viewed as low-brow and derided even from people who work at the highest levels of Disney. You haven't lived until you've listened to Andy (Georgie K's partner and a TDO exec) act akin to that snobby friend of yours that finds out that you like an occasional Big Mac and never lets you forget that you are a lower life form because of it. ... Look at it this way: would Iger have ever put Chappie in charge of the Studios or ESPN? You know the answer. But any exec can simply run the theme park empire. Chappie is a balder, brasher Paul Pressler 2.0.

Exactly. Public perception is an uphill battle, but if people on the inside don't even believe in the potential of their product, then they will have no drive to deliver anything of quality. If the attitude is "it's all crap anyway" then there is no incentive to learn at greater depths what you are managing or to listen and take opinions seriously from designers. Universal Orlando's business doubles since it opened and Disney is basically flat. Growing attendance with inflation when until they started to get really cheap and lazy in the early 2000s, they could open a park (like DAK) and immediately have 8 million visitors. They would literally create demand. Now they slowly wait until the existing demand cant be met and incrementally make additions.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Parks are not viewed as an art form. They are viewed as low-brow and derided even from people who work at the highest levels of Disney. You haven't lived until you've listened to Andy (Georgie K's partner and a TDO exec) act akin to that snobby friend of yours that finds out that you like an occasional Big Mac and never lets you forget that you are a lower life form because of it. ... Look at it this way: would Iger have ever put Chappie in charge of the Studios or ESPN? You know the answer. But any exec can simply run the theme park empire. Chappie is a balder, brasher Paul Pressler 2.0.

Its obvious the pressler era is back with a vengeance. Trouble is there are not enough 'old school' Disney people left to resist the malign influence of Chappie and his ilk.

Walt and his nine old men raised the theme parks to an art form and some of the best urban planning of public spaces ever done.

Most of the hard core Disney fans I know hold multiple advanced degrees as do I.

Yet the current TWDC management views the parks as 'stupid entertainment for stupid people' and the contempt for the guest shows up in both small and large ways.

The cardboard Olaf's are the small things. The six flags quality of the new rides are the big thing.

Frankly the Disney fans in my circle are just about DONE with Disney. We'll go to Japan for our Disney fix instead.
 

jpeden

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
Parks are not viewed as an art form. They are viewed as low-brow and derided even from people who work at the highest levels of Disney. You haven't lived until you've listened to Andy (Georgie K's partner and a TDO exec) act akin to that snobby friend of yours that finds out that you like an occasional Big Mac and never lets you forget that you are a lower life form because of it. ... Look at it this way: would Iger have ever put Chappie in charge of the Studios or ESPN? You know the answer. But any exec can simply run the theme park empire. Chappie is a balder, brasher Paul Pressler 2.0.

I always had high hopes for WDW with George K. in charge since he started as a bus boy at the Contemporary and was an opening day cast member. Does he really not care about the standards that were once there or for the most part are his hands tied by the Bobs?
 

ryguy

Well-Known Member
Parks are not viewed as an art form. They are viewed as low-brow and derided even from people who work at the highest levels of Disney. You haven't lived until you've listened to Andy (Georgie K's partner and a TDO exec) act akin to that snobby friend of yours that finds out that you like an occasional Big Mac and never lets you forget that you are a lower life form because of it. ... Look at it this way: would Iger have ever put Chappie in charge of the Studios or ESPN? You know the answer. But any exec can simply run the theme park empire. Chappie is a balder, brasher Paul Pressler 2.0.
This is so true. Well to do people go to Paris not Disney. They only do so because they have kids and they feel they have too. Most of them are miserable during the experience. They are also used to great customer service at the price points they are paying, and certainly don't get that while at Disney. They get the price but not so much the service. So why the heck would they want go back. Disney has always been traditionally a middle class vacation destination. The poor and ultra rich really aren't the target demographic.
 
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CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
Questions for CMs here (or anyone who might know):

Are the VERY short hours at MK in October (9 p.m. closings on Saturdays versus midnight and 1 a.m. past years) likely to stand?

Anyone know whether DAK will get EMHs again or did Georgie use all the labor in his budget?

CM (40%) and AP (20 and 30%) dining discounts appear to be ending in September or October. Any word on extensions or a new round of discounting?

Minnie vans. How do they seem to be doing? Failing like Express Buses? Or do they look promising for Disney by getting rubes who don't get that convenient free transportation is why people pay $500 for a $200 room at the BC?

I've heard that EPCOT has been deader than even DHS this summer, but anecdotally. Anyone have a bit more knowledge on the subject?

Thanks to anyone who can help with the above.
Not a CM but I travel with CMs frequently and can comment on the 40% dining discount. That particular discount expires some time in the fall every year. I'm not sure why the timing works out that way, but I suspect it has something to do with either the Free Dining promotion or the holiday dining coupons that Cast Members receive around that time. They'll release a new list of locations that runs into Fall 2018 right around the time that this one expires.

I don't think that discount is indicative of any kind of greater trend in WDW dining. It's been around for as long as I've had CM friends, going back to 2011 at least.
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
Crowds seemed healthy enough last week for the few days I was there but it does sound like overall attendance was down. I know pictures don't always capture everything but having looked at a lot of different photo updates from the parks this summer it does seem Epcot was fairly empty at times. Curious to hear from those in the know.
Crowd levels per TouringPlans.com were consistently higher than projections for my recent trip.

August 5 - Predicted 6, Actual 7
August 6 - Predicted 6, Actual 7
August 7 - Predicted 6, Actual 8
August 8 - Predicted 7, Actual 8
August 9 - Predicted 7, Actual 7
August 10 - Predicted 6, Actual 7
August 11 - Predicted 6, Actual 7

I'm not sure how much you can extrapolate from that since this summer is full of caveats. With the "expansion" of DAK into a full-day park with a nighttime show, there's really no precedent for us to gauge what's "normal" in the new state of operations. Not to mention the last showings of The Great Movie Ride and Ellen's Energy Adventure. I will say, it was extremely easy to get a prime viewing location for IllumiNations just a few minutes before the show. Soarin' and Test Track felt like "normal summer crowds," but World Showcase felt very light.
 

jpeden

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
This is so true. Well to do people go to Paris not Disney. They only do so because they have kids and they feel they have too. Most of them are miserable during the experience. They are also used to great customer service at the price points they are paying, and certainly don't get that while at Disney. They get the price but not so much the service. So why the heck would they want go back. Disney has always been traditionally a middle class vacation destination. The poor and ultra rich really aren't the target demographic.

The problem is they WANT to target the ultra-rich, (and that's obvious with the upsells and crazy price increases at their hotels/resorts). The problem is, they don't want to provide the level of service that these people are used to getting when they spend the kind of money that Disney is asking for a night at a Deluxe hotel.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Not sure if this is old news or maybe fake news but I read somewhere online that the Disney hotels were no longer going to provide individual shampoo bottles to guests. They are planning to install larger permanent dispensors on the walls in the showers that don't have to be changed as frequently. I assume the driver is cost savings which might be OK at the value resorts but that's a tough pill to swallow at a deluxe resort that's charging deluxe prices. Any truth to this rumor?
 

CaptainAmerica

Premium Member
The problem is they WANT to target the ultra-rich, (and that's obvious with the upsells and crazy price increases at their hotels/resorts). The problem is, they don't want to provide the level of service that these people are used to getting when they spend the kind of money that Disney is asking for a night at a Deluxe hotel.
But Disney isn't charging what you think Disney is charging for a Deluxe hotel once you make the relevant adjustments.

Wilderness Lodge Courtyard View for seven nights during regular season (rack rate, pre-tax) is $3,100.
25% room-only promotion = ($775)
Rental car, 8 days @ $40 per day = ($320)
Theme Park parking adjustment, 8 days @ $20 per day = ($160)

That gets you down to an effective rate per-night of about $260. Not cheap, but I think it's a fairer (more fair) comparison than looking at an undiscounted rack rate theme park view room in the Polynesian on Christmas week. I think $260 is perfectly reasonable for the theming and proximity to the theme parks of the Wilderness Lodge.

Not sure if this is old news or maybe fake news but I read somewhere online that the Disney hotels were no longer going to provide individual shampoo bottles to guests. They are planning to install larger permanent dispensors on the walls in the showers that don't have to be changed as frequently. I assume the driver is cost savings which might be OK at the value resorts but that's a tough pill to swallow at a deluxe resort that's charging deluxe prices. Any truth to this rumor?
Why would that be a "tough pill to swallow"? Presumably you'd still be able to wash your hair the same way you did before. As long as the device itself wasn't terribly ugly and they keep it clean, why is a tiny bottle better?
 

FerretAfros

Well-Known Member
What, specifically, is the issue raised by the city of Anaheim? I've read a few things here and there, but the complaints seemed petty at best and illegitimate at worst.

More to the point, few to none are the city's problem, and the other business along Harbor Blvd there have no claim to Disney's land. But what of the public land, I wonder? Specifically, the city should be concerned with infrastructure, in this case traffic, and the garage is surely going to ease an existing (really bad) problem. So the city seems to be acting against its own interests at least as far as it has responsibility.

But I know the political climate out there can be pretty crazy and corrupt at times, California loves to restrict property usage of private property. I'm guessing somebody knows somebody and complained about the new entrance cutting out access to Harbor Blvd shops, and now Anaheim isn't letting Disney use the air over Harbor Blvd. There's nothing as destructive as using the hammer of government to impose your will. As if Disneyland isn't the overwhelming cause and source of tax revenue for that city. What a fortunate blessing Disneyland is for that city. But a parasite can't survive if it kills its host.

Someone will have to remind me, wasn't the city also threatening the resort with extra taxes if there wasn't many billions of dollars invested in an expansion of the parks? I fail to see how that isn't extortion, and with that as precedence, I don't think it's unreasonable to be suspicious regarding the garage too. If extorting Disney for investment worked the first time, why not double down?

Still, I'm surprised there have been no signs of Disney playing hardball. I would imagine if they lobbied their passholders to call their legislators, things would happen pretty quickly. And wherever the disagreements lie, what prevents Disney from building and even finishing the actual parking structure itself? Is there a plan where the parking structure itself loses its bus stop or walkway?

This is starting to sound like a SDL construction story. And I have a feeling there's way, way more to this story than has been told so far.
I can't speak to specifics of why the City turned it down, but from a general urban design perspective it was a lousy proposal. I'm not talking about aesthetics or finish materials (which left something to be desired, especially considering the restrictions and goals outlined in the Anaheim Resort District Master Plan), but the basic flow of people through the space.

That segment of Harbor Blvd likely has the most pedestrian traffic of any corridor in Orange County. It's not perfect (too many driveway entrances, inadequate sidewalk width for the volume of pedestrians, etc.) but it works surprisingly well, especially for a region that's so deeply connected to automobile travel. Any project that modifies travel through that area needs to take pedestrians into consideration in a major way. Disney's proposed plan did not.

They seemingly designed it as though pedestrians' final destination was the security checkpoint, not the parks themselves or Downtown Disney. Anybody arriving from any of the businesses along Harbor Blvd must walk 1/8 mile east to the security checkpoint, only to turn around and head west, beyond their origin point, to the parks; for someone walking to and from the parks, this adds 1/2 mile to the roundtrip. And that's assuming that all the hotels build access points on their east side (likely requiring the removal of revenue-generating rooms); otherwise, pedestrians will have to backtrack even further to reach the nearest access point

There were plenty of other options Disney could have taken within their existing footprint (such as an additional security checkpoint under the bridge for pedestrians coming off Harbor Blvd, with elevators and escalators to get people up to bridge level), but they didn't do any of them. They literally put forward the most basic concept possible. They designed it for guests arriving in vehicles, whether personal autos or transit, and ignored the rest

This also says nothing about the 1/3 mile path from security to the ticket booths, roughly the same walking distance as between the Main Street and Toontown stations on the Disneyland Railroad. Other than a couple amorphous shade structures and minor landscaping, there was no sense of place, nothing to break up the monotony, and no transportation. It was just an empty corridor to shove guests down to get them to/from the park.

When the original Westcot-era plans showed parking here (and in other far-flung locations), it included moving walkways in the garage and PeopleMovers to get people to the parks; there's a good chance that there are still people working for the City who remember those plans, and noticed the conspicuous omission. Although the Mickey & Friends trams often struggle to keep up with demand, it's really the least Disney can do when charging what they do for parking, especially since there is no internal circulation within the parking structure. A PeopleMover system would be able to keep up with demand better, and could also make the journey more fun and iconic; heck even a gondola would work here.

The City has authority over Harbor Blvd, and Disney needs to work with them to get air rights access for their pedestrian bridge. They also need to coordinate with them for modifications to general traffic circulation throughout the Resort District. Given the icy political climate, you'd think that Disney would put forward a more appealing solution. But instead they came up with a solution that overlooks major urban design elements and has underwhelming-at-best aesthetics. The City has the wrong priorities much of the time and occasionally picks the wrong battles, but they were right to stop this plan.

It's not a plan that couldn't ever work, but it seems like a rough draft that never got finished. And now, for whatever reason, Disney seems to have abandoned it completely.
 

wdwmagic

Administrator
Moderator
Premium Member
Not sure if this is old news or maybe fake news but I read somewhere online that the Disney hotels were no longer going to provide individual shampoo bottles to guests. They are planning to install larger permanent dispensors on the walls in the showers that don't have to be changed as frequently. I assume the driver is cost savings which might be OK at the value resorts but that's a tough pill to swallow at a deluxe resort that's charging deluxe prices. Any truth to this rumor?
See this thread - Bye bye Mickey soaps?
 

wannabeBelle

Well-Known Member
Not sure if this is old news or maybe fake news but I read somewhere online that the Disney hotels were no longer going to provide individual shampoo bottles to guests. They are planning to install larger permanent dispensors on the walls in the showers that don't have to be changed as frequently. I assume the driver is cost savings which might be OK at the value resorts but that's a tough pill to swallow at a deluxe resort that's charging deluxe prices. Any truth to this rumor?
I have heard about it at the Values and saw a picture of the dispenser at Port Orleans Riverside, which is a Moderate. I haven't heard of it at the Deluxes yet. I can see this being a cost driven measure but it isn't a big deal for me. I usually travel with my own shampoo & conditioner anyhow. Marie
 

TheGhostWithTheMost

Well-Known Member
Questions for CMs here (or anyone who might know):
Minnie vans. How do they seem to be doing? Failing like Express Buses? Or do they look promising for Disney by getting rubes who don't get that convenient free transportation is why people pay $500 for a $200 room at the BC?

I've heard that EPCOT has been deader than even DHS this summer, but anecdotally. Anyone have a bit more knowledge on the subject?

Thanks to anyone who can help with the above.
The vans are not popular/I can see the vans disappearing without every being heard about again and EPCOT was on the moderate side of dead this summer (but nothing crazy or extreme).
 

Christian Fronckowiak

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
But Disney isn't charging what you think Disney is charging for a Deluxe hotel once you make the relevant adjustments.

Wilderness Lodge Courtyard View for seven nights during regular season (rack rate, pre-tax) is $3,100.
25% room-only promotion = ($775)
Rental car, 8 days @ $40 per day = ($320)
Theme Park parking adjustment, 8 days @ $20 per day = ($160)

That gets you down to an effective rate per-night of about $260. Not cheap, but I think it's a fairer (more fair) comparison than looking at an undiscounted rack rate theme park view room in the Polynesian on Christmas week. I think $260 is perfectly reasonable for the theming and proximity to the theme parks of the Wilderness Lodge.


Why would that be a "tough pill to swallow"? Presumably you'd still be able to wash your hair the same way you did before. As long as the device itself wasn't terribly ugly and they keep it clean, why is a tiny bottle better?
I think it's merely a perception thing.
 

wannabeBelle

Well-Known Member
But Disney isn't charging what you think Disney is charging for a Deluxe hotel once you make the relevant adjustments.

Wilderness Lodge Courtyard View for seven nights during regular season (rack rate, pre-tax) is $3,100.
25% room-only promotion = ($775)
Rental car, 8 days @ $40 per day = ($320)
Theme Park parking adjustment, 8 days @ $20 per day = ($160)

That gets you down to an effective rate per-night of about $260. Not cheap, but I think it's a fairer (more fair) comparison than looking at an undiscounted rack rate theme park view room in the Polynesian on Christmas week. I think $260 is perfectly reasonable for the theming and proximity to the theme parks of the Wilderness Lodge.
Assuming you can get the room discount. That is never guaranteed and has been particularly difficult to get going into the fall months of this year. Marie
 

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