A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

[yeti]

Then how...

...is Rey intimately familiar with how the MF works? How can she both fix it, modify it, and fly it against trained pilots so expertly? And while we are at it, why is the MF there at all, just sitting and waiting for her? You can't just say "well she messed around with broken ships on Jakku and drove a speeder around" because even Rey herself seems constantly surprised at this knowledge she seems to be pulling out of thin air.

The Falcon's appearance is a happy coincidence. You can call it the Force if you want. It's the same as Rey and Finn immediately running into Han and Chewie moments after leaving Jakku. The Force Awakens was an enjoyable movie but it might have pulled the storytelling freedom of "anything can happen in Star Wars" too often. However, that's all it is.

You're the first person I've seen who has a problem with how Rey knows how to pilot a ship. She's surprised with herself because that's the point of the movie - she's realizing a part of herself that she never knew existed.

...does Rey know how to use a Jedi Mind Trick, and force pulls, which are advanced Jedi skills, that even Anakin, who was the most naturally gifted Jedi ever, needed training to be able to do?

Same thing...just another "anything can happen in Star Wars" moment brought to you by JJ Abrams et al. It's because of stuff like this that people are calling the Sequel Trilogy high budget fan-fiction.

...can she wield a lightsaber, having never even seen one turn on before, and beat someone who has trained since they were a child in using it?

Wielding it alone isn't that hard - Luke didn't cut off his hand or forget to turn the safety off when he ignited his first lightsaber in ANH. Anyway, the point of that scene was to show Rey's exceptional raw strength in the force. In my opinion, these new movies are overusing "the force" as an explanation for everything, but that's all it is.

And why...

...does BB-8 attach himself to Rey? And don't say "R2 and Luke", because R2 knew exactly who Luke was

Because she saved him from Teedo, he liked her, and they needed to get along in order for the story to go anywhere.

...does Kylo Ren absolutely flip out when he hears about "the girl" on Jakku who escaped with them (go watch the scene before you say he just freaked out because they got away, he was clearly upset at that point but didn't go into a full-on temper tantrum and try to kill someone until "THE GIRL!" came up - the girl he had never even met before)

That was just extra information that sent his temper tantrum over the edge. It's pretty clear Kylo has no clue who she is -- all he cares about is the map to Skywalker.

does Harrison Ford basically spend his entire time with Rey staring at her, most often with a horrible look of guilt/regret on his face? Let's not mince words, Ford is a fine movie star but not a terribly deep actor - he only has a few expressions, and either Han knows more about Rey than he is letting on, or he is some incredible perv who feels guilty about wanting a young girl.

You're making that up. Or maybe guilt/regret is one of his few expressions?

...does Leia instantly know who Rey is and embraces her when she gets off the ship? She has never even met her before.

Leia has the force. Rey has the force. There's your answer.

I could go on. If you watch that film and don't realize that something is up with Rey and that everyone knows who she is but her (and not necessarily a Skywalker, mind you - but just someone), I just don't think you watched it very carefully. And if she literally never had any Jedi training whatsoever, she really was the ultimate Mary Sue that all those folks critical of how unbelievable her character in TFA was said she is.

I'm pretty sure it's you watching The Force Awakens too carefully.

I'm sure you will go point by point and try to dismiss all of these things on their own one by one with some type of mental gymnastics or the other

I'm not Doctor Nick, but it wasn't that hard


The fundamental problem and the cause of all this consternation is that The Force Awakens tried to create a "mystery box" hiding Rey's identity so that the big reveal in TLJ would have greater impact. The answer to that mystery was meant to be profound and unexpected. For a lot of people it was just disappointing.

Personally, I like the twist - but I see no reason why it had to be a mystery. They should have just told us from the beginning who Rey's parents were, or else saved it for a twist at the end of TFA. Drawing it out over years was overkill.

If they do decide in Episode 9 to say that Rey is the great granddaughter of Palpatine's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend or whatever, they would be stooping to fan expectations, and that would be weak storytelling IMO.

 

[doctornick]

@yeti pretty much covered what I would say as well, so thanks.

Honestly, I agree that Rey was too powerful in TFA and didn't like it. The Mind Trick in particular was way too over the top for my liking -- if they had to go that vein, I would have had her focusing really hard on trying to break the bonds and just having her subconsciously use the Force to telekinetically open then.

But I think ultimately all the Rey being so powerful stuff in TFA is explained by she's strong in the Force. Period. It's silly, but that's Star Wars. Just like Anakin being able to "sense what will happen before it does" and can proficiently ride a Pod Racer as a young child even though no other human has the reflexes to do so. I don't really care for Rey being so powerful, but I don't think JJ meant for their to be anything deeper than she's naturally gifted with the Force. I understand that's not good enough for many people, I really do, but I think that's all there is to it.

Regarding her parentage, I really don't think the filmmakers built up the "who" as important. What they built up was that Rey was abandoned by them and wanted them to come back (no matter their identities) -- her relationship with them. And what TLJ did -- in following the advice that Maz already gave her in TFA -- was to get her to move forward and stopping looking to the past to parents who left her behind and look to her future to what she can do and be. That's the Rey parent plot line, not some grand reveal about her ancestry. Sure people wanted her parents to be "someone" but geez she's constantly telling everyone that she's a nobody from no where. Why don't people believe her?

 

[AEfx]

The fundamental problem and the cause of all this consternation is that The Force Awakens tried to create a "mystery box" hiding Rey's identity so that the big reveal in TLJ would have greater impact. The answer to that mystery was meant to be profound and unexpected. For a lot of people it was just disappointing.

Personally, I like the twist - but I see no reason why it had to be a mystery. They should have just told us from the beginning who Rey's parents were, or else saved it for a twist at the end of TFA. Drawing it out over years was overkill.

If they do decide in Episode 9 to say that Rey is the great granddaughter of Palpatine's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend or whatever, they would be stooping to fan expectations, and that would be weak storytelling IMO.

As I said, I was sure someone would go point by point and use all kinds of ways to explain away that laundry list of things, but all of them together just make it a bad film now because clearly all this mystery was woven throughout TFA (even if you forget all the marketing, interviews, press conferences, panels, etc. where they promoted these mysteries over and over - let's not forget, we haven't even talked about Snoke).

You and seem to agree that this is a problem, but I put the blame on TLJ not TFA, because the cart didn't come before the horse.

The entirety of TFA basically pointed to the fact that Rey was hidden away, and the vintage gang was "in on it", basically like Luke was. It didn't matter who her parents turned out to be, if she were a Palpatine or a Skywalker or a Kenobi or whomever. That could have so easily been dealt with in this film instead of just thrown out. It could have been a reveal, boom, now back to the film. It would have worked in the second film, but as you say - and I have been saying - if they drag it out to a third, and play "just kidding" - it's just cheap.

That's the frustrating part. No matter what Johnson's "vision" was, he had a duty to follow up on the film that preceded it, and instead he just gave it the middle finger. I don't find that courageous or inventive, I find it to be quite terrible of him.

 

[AEfx]

Honestly, I agree that Rey was too powerful in TFA and didn't like it. The Mind Trick in particular was way too over the top for my liking -- if they had to go that vein, I would have had her focusing really hard on trying to break the bonds and just having her subconsciously use the Force to telekinetically open then.

But I think ultimately all the Rey being so powerful stuff in TFA is explained by she's strong in the Force. Period. It's silly, but that's Star Wars. Just like Anakin being able to "sense what will happen before it does" and can proficiently ride a Pod Racer as a young child even though no other human has the reflexes to do so. I don't really care for Rey being so powerful, but I don't think JJ meant for their to be anything deeper than she's naturally gifted with the Force. I understand that's not good enough for many people, I really do, but I think that's all there is to it.[/USER]

Anakin spent all his time building those pod racers and practicing. He didn't just walk up to one some day and suddenly pull the knowledge out of thin air.

In any case, I don't know how you honestly can say that Abrhams didn't build all this up as a mystery, if you agree with Yeti as you say, he pretty much says the same thing I do - that the mystery was clearly there. And it was all they talked about in all the publicity for the dang film. I just don't know how to convey that to you if you don't know that. Every Celebration panel, every press show, the whole nine yards. Mystery. Mystery. Mystery. Wait and see. Wait and see. Wait and see.

Regarding her parentage, I really don't think the filmmakers built up the "who" as important. What they built up was that Rey was abandoned by them and wanted them to come back (no matter their identities) -- her relationship with them. And what TLJ did -- in following the advice that Maz already gave her in TFA -- was to get her to move forward and stopping looking to the past to parents who left her behind and look to her future to what she can do and be. That's the Rey parent plot line, not some grand reveal about her ancestry. Sure people wanted her parents to be "someone" but geez she's constantly telling everyone that she's a nobody from no where. Why don't people believe her?

I just don't know how to respond to that. So basically, TFA was total crap, but TLJ is good because it pretended the total crap didn't happen. Okay. Sorry, I just expected more from this great sequel trilogy that they had the luxury of being able to plan out years ahead of time.

In any case, I keep hoping someone will say something to change my mind, but it's just depressing me more about the film because reading your posts (especially the one about Finn/Rey/Rose) just makes me realize how deeply terrible this mess is. These characters have known each other for like a WEEK by the end of TLJ. When you stop to really absorb that, the whole thing falls apart even more.

I mean, just Finn...on Monday, he leaves the First Order, meets Rey, makes goo-goo-eyes because she is probably the first female aside from Phasma he has ever been near, on Tuesday he is at Maz's Castle, freaking out over Kylo grabbing this girl he has a crush on, Wednesday he joins the Resistance and decides to infiltrate the First Order base, and gets mortally wounded, on Thursday he is in a coma, on Friday he wakes up, decides to go and try to infiltrate the First Order, again (!!), realizes Rey is MIA and starts crushing on Rose, since, you know, she is right there, Saturday he goes to a casino, and on Sunday he goes back to the First Order for the second time in a week, fails, and then goes back to the Resistance with Rose and - oh hey, it's my Monday crush again - what's up?

The whole thing, man. I never thought I'd say it, but I think...I think I miss George Lucas. For all the stuff he screwed up, at least he knew how to make an epic space opera, not something that moves like a daytime soap.

 

[doctornick]

In any case, I don't know how you honestly can say that Abrhams didn't build all this up as a mystery, if you agree with Yeti as you say, he pretty much says the same thing I do - that the mystery was clearly there. And it was all they talked about in all the publicity for the dang film. I just don't know how to convey that to you if you don't know that. Every Celebration panel, every press show, the whole nine yards. Mystery. Mystery. Mystery. Wait and see. Wait and see. Wait and see.

I never answered you before about it, but no I don't do or read any of that stuff. Love Star Wars, but I want to be surprised with each film. So I go on just what's in the films themselves and what's in the trailers. So that's what I'm basing my opinions on in terms of what was hinted at.

That said, virtually every article that people post about what the filmmakers said or hinted at always have them saying very evasive non-committal things. I've yet to see something that indicates that Rey's parents would be someone of significance or that Snoke would get a backstory (though I certainly have not read everything out there) -- just vague answers that could be interpreted that way but were perfectly consistent with what we got.

I guess the way I see it, I just don't fret about stuff and take them at face value unless told otherwise by the movie.

Rey uses the Force well but there's no explaining. I assume she's just meant to be naturally, intuitively gifted with it.

Rey knows how to pilot a spaceship. It's never explained how or why, so I just assume she learned how sometime during her life.

Rey says she's a nobody from nowhere. No one corrects her or indicates otherwise. So I assume she's nobody from no where.

Snoke is the leader of the First Order and familiar with the Force. That's all I know and assume that's all I need to know about him for the story unless they tell me more.

I think you are way over exaggerating any romance angles or how prevalent they are in the films. I didn't really pick up much of any romance vibe between Rey and Kylo -- I just think she's a good person who wants to see him brought back to the light and stop killing.

Maybe I'm just easily entertained. I thought TFA and TLJ were fun movies with good interesting characters and a nice wallop of nostalgia. I'm excited for Ep IX. YMMV (as it obviously does).

 

[VaderTron]

in Snoke's case, he said ZERO substance related to his past.

"just im a bad dude who managed to bring the empire old forces" great!

Put yourself back to seeing the original movies. The Emperor is this powerful being. Who is he? Where did he come from? How did he aquire his powers? Still pondering the answers as you watch THE FINAL FILM OF THE TRILOGY...Uhh....wait....Vader is lifting the Emperor over his head and pitching him over the rail to his death. Welp....guess we will never find out. What terrible storytelling!

....Patience young padawan. This os only the second movie of this trilogy. Books, stand-alone films, video games, etc will be pumped out for years to come. The backstory will be told in full detail. You just need to wait.

 

[britain]

You just know the Spirit is going to LOVE what’s happened to this thread.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Put yourself back to seeing the original movies. The Emperor is this powerful being. Who is he? Where did he come from? How did he aquire his powers? Still pondering the answers as you watch THE FINAL FILM OF THE TRILOGY...Uhh....wait....Vader is lifting the Emperor over his head and pitching him over the rail to his death. Welp....guess we will never find out. What terrible storytelling!

....Patience young padawan. This os only the second movie of this trilogy. Books, stand-alone films, video games, etc will be pumped out for years to come. The backstory will be told in full detail. You just need to wait.

Return of the Jedi looks like citizen Kane compared to what has followed...and macdiarmid played that part brilliantly...one of the creepiest bad guys of all time. The character was set up adequately offscreen to make it work.

As opposed to bloke...who has no backstory whatsoever...and looks stupid mainly BECAUSE of the original baddies.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Put yourself back to seeing the original movies. The Emperor is this powerful being. Who is he? Where did he come from? How did he aquire his powers? Still pondering the answers as you watch THE FINAL FILM OF THE TRILOGY...Uhh....wait....Vader is lifting the Emperor over his head and pitching him over the rail to his death. Welp....guess we will never find out. What terrible storytelling!

....Patience young padawan. This os only the second movie of this trilogy. Books, stand-alone films, video games, etc will be pumped out for years to come. The backstory will be told in full detail. You just need to wait.

You didn’t need more information. Star Wars did not begin with the big bad having been defeated.

 

[NearTheEars]

Return of the Jedi looks like citizen Kane compared to what has followed...and macdiarmid played that part brilliantly...one of the creepiest bad guys of all time. The character was set up adequately offscreen to make it work.

As opposed to bloke...who has no backstory whatsoever...and looks stupid mainly BECAUSE of the original baddies.

So once again it’s OK that they didn’t give us backstories in the original trilogy, but it’s bad storytelling in the new trilogy. Just trying to keep up on how I’m supposed to feel.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

So once again it’s OK that they didn’t give us backstories in the original trilogy, but it’s bad storytelling in the new trilogy. Just trying to keep up on how I’m supposed to feel.

I don't see how they didn't give us the backstory in the original...that was my point...

Tarkin provided the political backstory...and Vader gave the force backstory in empire...

The emperor in jedi was kinda a grand reveal.

I got it when I was a kid and it holds up fine today...unlike the prequel crap and this abrams
Created web now...

I sometimes wonder if people have watched the same movies all these years. The original movies were ridiculed for years for being too simple and badly acted (after everybody watched them 10 times...to be clear)...but compared to the cgi hell characters since? It's not even close...

How many useless cgi animals did Johnson spend $100 mil on? I lost count...

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/screenrant.com/disney-star-wars-worse-original-trilogy/amp/

 

[wdisney9000]

I am upset they did not reveal who Snokes parents were! arghhh! TLJ sucks!!!

 

[the.dreamfinder]

@AEfx, I jumped the gun on that ESPN report I posted this weekend. I should have waited for a more credible report on Skipper’s ouster to come out. Now we have it from THR, but the sexual harassment angle does not appear.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/n...esidents-shocking-exit-bob-igers-role-1070918

 

[FigmentJedi]

Anakin spent all his time building those pod racers and practicing. He didn't just walk up to one some day and suddenly pull the knowledge out of thin air.

Rey's mechanical ability at least makes some in-film sense from her occupation as a junker. Apparently her piloting skill comes from old flight sim computers she scavenged, but that was something left for side material to handwave, which is a bigger problem of the Sequel Trilogy overall.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Rey's mechanical ability at least makes some in-film sense from her occupation as a junker. Apparently her piloting skill comes from old flight sim computers she scavenged, but that was something left for side material to handwave, which is a bigger problem of the Sequel Trilogy overall.

Agree totally...that's the kind of thing that only the diehards are gonna bother to find out...which means there's holes for the casuals that will diminish enjoyment...

And there's a rift in the diehards...I know there's been many attempts to marginalize it...but it there...

 

[RSoxNo1]

Something tells me you haven't actually read or digested anything I or others have said and you are just repeating the same nonsense dismissal over and over.

I'll make it really, really simple, so even if somehow you don't understand what has been said before, you won't have that excuse again:

Everything about TFA pointed to the fact that Rey was someone. Her immediate mastery of everything in the film she did. That the characters knew who she was, but it was she (and the audience) that didn't.

I didn't care who that someone was - there are many possibilities - but saying

Spoiler

that she was no one

is not an answer, it was a cop-out.




Wow. Just wow. So much nonsense there, it's remarkable.

So I should blame TFA, the first movie in the series, for the mistakes made by the second film in following up on them? That has got to be the most backward argument made yet. They weren't problems until TLJ decided to give the first film the middle finger.

But hey, progress - at least you are admitting that the two films do not go well together.

As to plot, you don't seem to understand story structure. You could completely remove Finn's little side quest and the plot of the film doesn't change. The outcome doesn't change. It was filler, not plot - they were stuck with two actors (Boyega and Christie) in "major" roles who didn't have anything to do with the plot of the film. It would have made a good comic book side story companion piece.



Oh, that faith you have. It would be admirable if it were not so demonstrably untrue. The directors and writers of the films have actually stated that they are doing the feature film scripts as they go along and that it's up to the next writer to continue to fill in the blanks. In this case, they did a poor job doing that with TLJ - as you stated above, they did not pick up the threads TFA so clearly left. The story group is just responsible for the ancillary media and making sure it all ties in.

I was you two years ago. I had that faith. But TLJ and everything surrounding it has taught me that Disney/Lucasfilm is undeserving of it. If they somehow manage to right the ship at this point, I'll be the first to say "good job" - but at this point, they have painted themselves into such a corner that Episode IX would have to be the most brilliant script ever written in order to somehow undo all the contradictions of TFA vs. TLJ - and the only way I see they can even begin those gymnastics is to use cheap tricks, because anything short of "just kidding!" is just nearly impossible to comprehend.

The basic problem I had w/TLJ is that it was full of unsatisfying payoffs for elongated build ups. There were red herrings throughout that led nowhere and some of the significant "reveals" or "non-reveals" very well could turn out to be misinformation/misdirection. If that's the case than the entire movie very well could have been pointless.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

The basic problem I had w/TLJ is that it was full of unsatisfying payoffs for elongated build ups. There were red herrings throughout that led nowhere and some of the significant "reveals" or "non-reveals" very well could turn out to be misinformation/misdirection. If that's the case than the entire movie very well could have been pointless.

Yes...which for me currently puts it closer to the prequels than OT and Rogue...

I think disney took "episode" too literally...as in they don't see it as an epic/3 part arc:..and it is. In an arc, the middle part has responsibilities and they seem obtuse to that.

Individual episodes...like marvel or Star Trek...don't work here...

In a way...Lucas used "episode" as an oxymoron...

 

[AEfx]

The basic problem I had w/TLJ is that it was full of unsatisfying payoffs for elongated build ups. There were red herrings throughout that led nowhere and some of the significant "reveals" or "non-reveals" very well could turn out to be misinformation/misdirection. If that's the case than the entire movie very well could have been pointless.

Exactly.

I had a lot of faith that under Disney's stewardship they would have this all ironed out so perfectly, but between the things you mentioned - and the ongoing behind the scenes stuff going on - it's pretty clear that they just don't have a handle on anything - except for the marketing...

 

[AEfx]

Rey's mechanical ability at least makes some in-film sense from her occupation as a junker. Apparently her piloting skill comes from old flight sim computers she scavenged, but that was something left for side material to handwave, which is a bigger problem of the Sequel Trilogy overall.

True - but it also again doesn't make sense with Ridley's performance. Maybe they should have reviewed that material with her. That's the problem - as she is instantly able to do all these things, she seems as surprised as everyone else. It's not like some confident "Oh, I got this!" it's "OMG, I can't believe I know how to do this!"