A Spirited 15 Rounds ...

[Disneyhead'71]

In which case, bad, lazy storytelling - it means that they are dragging out for three films a really simple question because apparently no one could come up with anything else more compelling. That would be even sadder than what they did with TLJ. It is important, but to hang the entire thing on it is just depressing.

Seriously. A whole new universe, they essentially had a blank canvas they could have populated with new and interesting characters and compelling storylines - and the big point of the thing that drags on for three movies becomes the question of who Rey's parents are?

That is also what really confounds me about TLJ - how they basically have boiled the whole thing down to two characters, Kylo and Rey, and their relationship. Poe and Finn might as well not even have existed in this film. We learned nothing about them, they didn't develop at all as characters. Poe could have been any random member of the resistance. All we saw of Finn was what we saw in TFA - a guy who comes up with risky plans (that ultimately don't impact the story) and who apparently makes goo-goo eyes at every woman he talks to for five minutes.

I keep waiting for someone to say something profound about TLJ aside from generic superlatives - no one seems to really be able to get down in the mud and explain in detail why they thought it was such an amazing film or how the plot/characters were somehow so wonderful.

Lazy?

God, I hate the internet and it's bazillions of expert analysts.

 

[AEfx]

Lazy?

God, I hate the internet and it's bazillions of expert analysts.

How else does one describe it? If you are correct and Kylo was lying, then yes, it is a lazy way to drag something out over three films. Lazy because it's pretty pathetic if out of an entire galaxy of storylines they could have come up with for a new trilogy, they create this central question in the first film, lie about it in the second, and then say "just kidding!" and go back to it in the third.

That's *if* it goes the way you say. I don't think there was any intention of it, but now that JJ is back in the helm for the next one (and his statements of how he wished he had just stayed and saw the whole thing through like they asked him to begin with are making SO much sense now), it is a possibility now that he feels the need to right the ship.

Sorry that logic disturbs you, but not sorry - you are the making the statements, I'm just responding to them.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

How else does one describe it? If you are correct and Kylo was lying, then yes, it is a lazy way to drag something out over three films. Lazy because it's pretty pathetic if out of an entire galaxy of storylines they could have come up with for a new trilogy, they create this central question in the first film, lie about it in the second, and then say "just kidding!" and go back to it in the third.

That's *if* it goes the way you say. I don't think there was any intention of it, but now that JJ is back in the helm for the next one (and his statements of how he wished he had just stayed and saw the whole thing through like they asked him to begin with are making SO much sense now), it is a possibility now that he feels the need to right the ship.

Sorry that logic disturbs you, but not sorry - you are the making the statements, I'm just responding to them.

My guess is Kylo lied because he doesn't want her to find out who she really is. It is misdirection to be resolved in the next act.

Did you see Bladerunner 2049? They did the same thing with Officer K, and it worked perfectly. Heartbreaking.

PS: Highly recommend Bladerunner 2049.

 

[Quinnmac000]

My guess is Kylo lied because he doesn't want her to find out who she really is. It is misdirection to be resolved in the next act.

Did you see Bladerunner 2049? They did the same thing with Officer K, and it worked perfectly. Heartbreaking.

PS: Highly recommend Bladerunner 2049.

But Rian Johnson the director purposely stated that he went through the script and anything that people speculated he changed purposely so it would be a suprise/fresh. So I don't even think Disney knows who her parents are and it will be up to the next script to determine which means no one can state its a misdirection or that Kylo lied.

Yeah, absolutely. Especially when your job is to make a good movie, and making a good movie means drama, and drama means throwing roadblocks in the way of the easy answers and the expectations. That means in some ways you're going to be butting up against your own instincts as to what you as a fan want. You have to defy wish fulfillment in order to tell a good story — especially to tell a good second act of a story, which is what the middle chapter basically is. It was absolutely something we had to keep in mind.
https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/12...-last-jedi-interview-rian-johnson-ram-bergman

Did you find yourself delving into fan theories?

Rian Johnson
Well, I find I was kind of lucky: I wrote the script while J.J. [Abrams] was shooting The Force Awakens. I wrote it before the movie was out there. I didn’t really have any fan theories in my head while writing it, which I think was ultimately a healthy thing.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Star Wars fans hated the prequels...and Force Awakens...and Rogue One...and now Last Jedi.

But they showed up every time with open wallets, and I seriously doubt that's going to change with Episode IX. I've heard of movies being critic-proof, but Star Wars may be the one film franchise that's fan-proof too.

In that sense, Disney and Star Wars are a match made in heaven. What did our titular Spirit say about "for everyone one negative comment posted online..."? The same Mommy Bloggers who rave about the food at Chef Mickey's are probably just fine with the latest Star Wars movie and the company knows that too. Any fans (you know, the REAL fans, unlike those fake Porg buyers...) who feel left out are obviously of little concern beacuse a) they're not the target audience and b) they know they have your money regardless.

Is The Last Jedi a good movie? At this point, I don't even care, because it's only one small piece of Disney's galaxy sized marketing machine for this property and I'm bored of everyone yelling a brick walls trying to convince them that their opinion is right.

 

[NearTheEars]

In which case, bad, lazy storytelling - it means that they are dragging out for three films a really simple question because apparently no one could come up with anything else more compelling. That would be even sadder than what they did with TLJ. It is important, but to hang the entire thing on it is just depressing.

Seriously. A whole new universe, they essentially had a blank canvas they could have populated with new and interesting characters and compelling storylines - and the big point of the thing that drags on for three movies becomes the question of who Rey's parents are? I also find that highly unlikely, as half the point of the film was this "connection" the two supposedly had, and how Rey is more skilled at it than Kylo - I don't see him being able to have lied to her in that moment and it being believable.

That is also what really confounds me about TLJ - how they basically have boiled the whole thing down to two characters, Kylo and Rey, and their relationship. Kylo, who is just basically retelling Anakin down to his little temper tantrums (except that at least Anakin did have a crappy life growing up, unlike Kylo who was essentially a prince and raised into a family with enormous power), and Rey, who has just become the poster child of a Mary Sue (and boy do I hate having to admit that, after I so vehemently defended her post-TFA).

Poe and Finn might as well not even have existed in this film. We learned nothing about them, they didn't develop at all as characters. Poe could have been any random member of the resistance. All we saw of Finn was what we saw in TFA - a guy who comes up with risky plans (that ultimately don't work out or make things worse) and who apparently makes goo-goo eyes at every woman he talks to for five minutes.

I keep waiting for someone to say something profound about TLJ aside from generic superlatives - no one seems to really be able to get down in the mud and explain in detail why they thought it was such an amazing film or how the plot/characters were somehow so wonderful.

I agree that Finn didn’t develop at all in TLJ, but did you somehow miss the entire Poe story? It was pretty clear.

 

[mickeyfan5534]

Can we just admire TLJ as a good film in its own right and wait to see how the story unfolds in IX before we go nuts over whether or not it’s the “worst thing ever and a travesty of Star Wars”? Because this was very clearly all setup while still a good character drama and poses questions that should all be answered in IX.

And for the record, I don’t mind that Rey is “nobody” because why the heck is an entire galaxy centered on the Skywalkers as the ultimate heroes? Especially when 99% of the galaxy’s problems are directly the fault of the Skywalker clan.

 

[NearTheEars]

Can we just admire TLJ as a good film in its own right and wait to see how the story unfolds in IC before we go nuts over whether or not it’s the “worst thing ever and a travesty of Star Wars”? Because this was very clearly all setup while still a good character drama and poses questions that should all be answered in IX.

And for the record, I don’t mind that Rey is “nobody” because why the heck is an entire galaxy centered on the Skywalkers as the ultimate heroes? Especially when 99% of the galaxy’s problems are directly the fault of the Skywalker clan.

Have you been here before? Most things are determined to be the worst before they even open here.

 

[englanddg]

Can we just admire TLJ as a good film in its own right

No. Because, it isn't. And, if I hear "well, the visuals and cinematography are stunning" once more, I'm gonna flip out. First, why would you expect, in an era where pretty much ALL movies have great CGI effects anymore, that the CGI wouldn't be amazing? When they didn't use CGI, and even some places where they did (ahem, Casino Scene), it was lazy. Take, for example, using Skellig Michael and the stone dome monastery for "Luke's Island"... I mean, heck, Lucas did use the deserts of Tunisia, but at least he BUILT most of Mos Eisley... They didn't even do that, using the exact domes that are there... The rest of their set pieces were taken from previous designs, tweaked in an instagram fashion. From ships to interiors.

The one place they really got to play with "new ideas", the Casino planet, they bombed with a cartoonish and ridiculous setting that was completely out of step with the rest of the film.

and wait to see how the story unfolds in IX before we go nuts over whether or not it’s the “worst thing ever and a travesty of Star Wars”? Because this was very clearly all setup while still a good character drama and poses questions that should all be answered in IX.

See, this is part of the issue. It isn't that the questions were not answered, it is that they were dismissed.

There are only a few questions left now:

1) Will Rose and Finn hook up?
2) Will Poe and Ray hook up?
3) Will Ren and Ray hook up?
4) Will Hux stop falling for prank calls from interstellar Bart Simpson?

Tune in two years from now for the satisfying conclusion!

And for the record, I don’t mind that Rey is “nobody” because why the heck is an entire galaxy centered on the Skywalkers as the ultimate heroes? Especially when 99% of the galaxy’s problems are directly the fault of the Skywalker clan.

I don't mind it either, that she is a "no one".

What I do mind is that, if she IS a "no one", then just leave it at that. No "flashback" scenes teasing she isn't, etc...etc... Inviting the audience to be interested in a character for THIS reason...and to use THIS reason (that she may be a "someone") to explain her talents.... I mean, if she is a "no one"...then nothing makes any sense, unless you are gonna go with "The Force chose her"...which is, a cop out as then they should have started with her being a "no one", and not teased that she wasn't.

They could have left the "who is Rey" question...as in her "role"...without teasing that she was more than that...and then tossing it aside.

Of course, Ren could be "lying"...how shocking.

Next, on Days of our Lives....or should I saw Stars of our Wars....

Look, I know that the saga was originally in part inspired by Flash Gordon serials...but that doesn't mean it should be a hokey as them.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

I doesn't seem that many folks appreciate the episodic nature of serial storytelling.

 

[Bairstow]

There are only a few questions left now:

1) Will Rose and Finn hook up?
2) Will Poe and Ray hook up?
3) Will Ren and Ray hook up?

I thought the first movie was definitely hinting at Finn and Ray being an item.
Or Finn and Poe, if Disney were really brave. That seemed to be the direction both movies hinted at the most.
I guess Disney had...concerns....about having someone like Finn kiss someone like Rey onscreen.

Have Poe and Rey even met each other?

Whatever their plans were before, Rose kissing Finn totally came out of nowhere. Those two characters/actors have zero chemistry and at no point was it implied that either was romantically interested in the other.
I guess it subverted our expectations so it's fine.

 

[englanddg]

I thought the first movie was definitely hinting at Finn and Ray being an item.
Or Finn and Poe, if Disney were really brave.

I guess Disney had...concerns....about making Finn and Rey get together.

Have Poe and Rey even met each other?

At the end of TLJ, on the Falcon. And, the fan girls (I don't use that term as a pejorative, to be clear, just an indication) have gone wild about his shy reaction to it.

https://hellogiggles.com/reviews-coverage/movies/rey-and-poe-last-jedi-continuity/

Including on tumblr...

 

[Travel Junkie]

I was you two years ago. I had that faith.

I'm hardly a Star Wars fanboy. Don't care much one way or another. TLJ is a flawed film with several problems. Yes Finn's role was one of them. All I was saying was that TLJ had a difficult task and one not appreciated and you decided to resort to rudeness and condescension.

Rian Johnson tried to do a sequel with characters introduced in the last film as well as give screen time to Star Wars royalty. He also wanted to put his stamp on the franchise. It was ambitious to attempt what he did and IMO he missed some points but overall did a good job. That was my original point and I may know a thing or two about how hard that is because...

As to plot, you don't seem to understand story structure.

I have a Master's Degree in Screenwriting from one of the best film schools in the country. I have worked as a script reader, screenwriter, script doctor and been in the story departments of major Hollywood studios for over a decade. The people that hire me have a different opinion than you.

Anyway I'm off to enjoy NYE. I should have know better than to get into a discussion with diehard fanboys who think they know more about filmmaking than filmmakers.

Prediction:

Spoiler

We haven't heard the last of Rey's patronage. Star Wars uses misdirection and red herrings all the time. A hardcore Star Wars fan should know this.

 

[AEfx]

I doesn't seem that many folks appreciate the episodic nature of serial storytelling.

Can you like say something that has some substance and isn't just some pithy dismissal?

Maybe make it like a New Year's resolution or something.

The very criticism of TLJ is that it apparently was made by someone who didn't appreciate the episodic nature of serial storytelling, because the guy apparently forgot to watch the prior episode before making the new one. Now someone has to go in and clean up the mess in the third one for any of it to make any sense, much less progress.

 

[AEfx]

I agree that Finn didn’t develop at all in TLJ, but did you somehow miss the entire Poe story? It was pretty clear.

No, Poe's issue was a bit different than Finn. You literally could have cut Finn totally out of the film, every frame, and it wouldn't have mattered. Poe's issue was that he could have been "Random Resistance Guy #37" and had the same part and the same lines. I do grant he was treated better than Finn when it came to at least he actually was involved in the story. I quite like him, actually, so it was nice to give Leia someone to play against, at least. It's still a shame we know nothing more about him than we did before, though, except that he is loyal to Leia (which we knew from his very first scene in TFA).

This is all kind of why TLJ feels like a mess to me once you get past "wow, that was a pretty film with some neat moments". It seems hell bent on centering everything on Reylo, and just shuffled around to give everyone else something to do. It really is showing how they didn't plan these three films out, which in the 2010's is just really unacceptable. You can excuse it for the OT, as when the first film was made they had no idea if there would be another, and the PT you can chalk it up to Lucas' folly of ego. This time? With the talent they gathered, and three films with set release dates and schedules in place, it is just terrible that they didn't sit down in 2013 and hash all this out.

 

[MisterPenguin]

There are only a few questions left now:

1) Will Rose and Finn hook up?
2) Will Poe and Ray hook up?
3) Will Ren and Ray hook up?

4) Will Finn and Poe hook up?

 

[englanddg]

4) Will Finn and Poe hook up?

View attachment 253650

Perhaps after getting sexually assaulted by Rose in TLJ...Finn has second thoughts about his sexuality?

What a TWIST!

And, talk about the inclusion this would bring to the Star Wars universe and their imposing patriarchy!

Kathleen will LOVE it!

 

[the.dreamfinder]

4) Will Finn and Poe hook up?

View attachment 253650

Daisy Ridley and Kelly Marie Tran know what’s up!

 

[Disneyhead'71]

Rey is the granddaughter of Qui-Gon Jinn.

 

[englanddg]

See, this just says it all, they answered the question. People just really don’t like the answer.

The entire thing is boiled down to theories not panning out, fan over-calls of misdirects. But the lineage was addressed and it definitely zigged instead of zagged.

Spoiler

Han’s scene... Perfect example of people reading too much into things and blowing the lineage question out of proportion. TFA was not that focused on it, even much, much, much less so on Snoke. That was all marketing and fan speculation. You don’t think the guy who abandoned his actual family, with his son currently destroying the galaxy isn’t allowed to feel some remorse when he hears Rey’s sob story? He doesn’t feel bad because he abandoned Rey... he feels bad because he’s been a crap dad to his own son.

That said... I don’t think JJ had the balls to not play into Star Wars tropes and make the galaxy even smaller by continuing to have everyone related. So likely in JJ’s mind before the blowback on how much of a remake TLJ was, Rey would be either related to the Skywalker or Kenobi clan. I’m glad Rian intervened, I know many others are not.

I really think the problem core fans have is bigger...

Spoiler

He ended the skywalker saga in a sense, there is no more main series Skywalker stories once Kylo meet his fate in IX. I was confused why people keep saying there is nothing for JJ to do with the next episode, but now I realize they mean there is nothing to do for Luke.[/spoilers]

So....basically, it was this.