A really great post on the state of Epcot

Skyway

Well-Known Member
It was about inspiring people, children and adults, to drive towards a better future together.

Deep question here (and I don't quite know the answer): Did EPCOT Center truly succeed in inspiring people to create a better future together?

Is the 21st Century we're living today as fulfilling as Danny Kaye promised it would be when he introduced EPCOT?

Or did EPCOT fail to make a difference in society? Was it really just a corporately-manufactured feel-good fantasyland that was lying to us while taking our money in the 80s?

Could we be more cynical than we were 24 years ago, and could anything truly give us that wide-eyed wonder again?
 

sshindel

The Epcot Manifesto
Deep question here (and I don't quite know the answer): Did EPCOT Center truly succeed in inspiring people to create a better future together?

Is the 21st Century we're living today as fulfilling as Danny Kaye promised it would be when he introduced EPCOT?

Or did EPCOT fail to make a difference in society? Was it really just a corporately-manufactured feel-good fantasyland that was lying to us while taking our money in the 80s?

Could we be more cynical than we were 24 years ago, and could anything truly give us that wide-eyed wonder again?
Making note to answer this in the morning when I have time to give a thoughtful answer to an honest question.
 

hopemax

Well-Known Member
Now, we have "grown up" and know better - and the ever-increasing sophistication of youth of today knows better, as well (the simple impracticality of energy usage let alone the dozens of other reasons would set them off).

I just wish I understood why the "sophistication of youth today" is so easily placated with low capacity cycle, book report attractions, and dropping IPs in where they don't make sense. That reasoning always gets trotted out as a reasoning why not to do something like Epcot or a reason to ditch Tomorrowland. But an early 80's era Muppet character plopped in Liberty Square, or invasion of a fictional land into a real country of Norway, see that, THAT will get kids going and not set anything off in their so sophisticated minds.

Kids and adults just want to be entertained. And given how much sci-fi dominates other parts of pop culture, and not all of it spaceships and aliens, there are successful elements that can be brought to life. But I fear that the people who think up those ideas no longer thing Disney is a viable outlet to bring those ideas to life (no Ray Bradbury types out there eager to work) and Disney wouldn't want to give up the storytelling anyway. There would be no synergy, no movie franchises, etc.

Every time I read a story about the Google driverless cars, I kept thinking in another era that would make a great partnership. People want to move from their hotels to a park quickly, on a more personal level and on their schedule. And people would love to see non-bus expansion of the transportation system that doesn't cost a bajilion dollars. Google needs a testing grounds. What is more perfect than the roads around Disney. Of course, people are pigs so the cars would get destroyed and I'm sure there are other practical reasons why not to put people in them...Anyway the point is, I bet neither Disney or Google would see how perfect their needs fit together and completely laugh off the idea.

I also don't understand why Disney isn't doing something (well, actually I can) with 3-D printing technology. Many of us have heard of it, but haven't yet got to see it in action. Disney is doing research, according to their own website to create a soft fabric (I didn't even know they had a research website) https://www.disneyresearch.com/publication/a-layered-fabric-3d-printer-for-soft-interactive-objects/ but no place for it in Epcot. They also work on things like this http://gizmodo.com/disneys-new-rolling-robot-climbs-walls-like-a-gecko-1750083587 . Someone mentioned software versions, I also saw on an out of order car on Spaceship Earth and the Figment Musical thingy that those run on XP, and I think the Figment thing might have even been NT! I should have taken a picture when they had maintenance out trying to reset it, but I think I was too dismayed by how ancient everything is. There are still places, like I think the Muppets queue, which still has old tube tvs but sophisticated youth must be all okay with that stuff.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Ooh I'm getting an Adventures Thru Inner Space Vibe here. Would it be a boat ride without water then? :eek: I like it, George, I like it!

As long as the light show skipped the random "ya can't eat yer puddin if ya don't eat yer meat" interludes, I'm in. Or maybe that's the best part...
Yes. Yes they are.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
I just wish I understood why the "sophistication of youth today" is so easily placated with low capacity cycle, book report attractions, and dropping IPs in where they don't make sense. That reasoning always gets trotted out as a reasoning why not to do something like Epcot or a reason to ditch Tomorrowland. But an early 80's era Muppet character plopped in Liberty Square, or invasion of a fictional land into a real country of Norway, see that, THAT will get kids going and not set anything off in their so sophisticated minds.

Kids and adults just want to be entertained. And given how much sci-fi dominates other parts of pop culture, and not all of it spaceships and aliens, there are successful elements that can be brought to life. But I fear that the people who think up those ideas no longer thing Disney is a viable outlet to bring those ideas to life (no Ray Bradbury types out there eager to work) and Disney wouldn't want to give up the storytelling anyway. There would be no synergy, no movie franchises, etc.

Every time I read a story about the Google driverless cars, I kept thinking in another era that would make a great partnership. People want to move from their hotels to a park quickly, on a more personal level and on their schedule. And people would love to see non-bus expansion of the transportation system that doesn't cost a bajilion dollars. Google needs a testing grounds. What is more perfect than the roads around Disney. Of course, people are pigs so the cars would get destroyed and I'm sure there are other practical reasons why not to put people in them...Anyway the point is, I bet neither Disney or Google would see how perfect their needs fit together and completely laugh off the idea.

I also don't understand why Disney isn't doing something (well, actually I can) with 3-D printing technology. Many of us have heard of it, but haven't yet got to see it in action. Disney is doing research, according to their own website to create a soft fabric (I didn't even know they had a research website) https://www.disneyresearch.com/publication/a-layered-fabric-3d-printer-for-soft-interactive-objects/ but no place for it in Epcot. They also work on things like this http://gizmodo.com/disneys-new-rolling-robot-climbs-walls-like-a-gecko-1750083587 . Someone mentioned software versions, I also saw on an out of order car on Spaceship Earth and the Figment Musical thingy that those run on XP, and I think the Figment thing might have even been NT! I should have taken a picture when they had maintenance out trying to reset it, but I think I was too dismayed by how ancient everything is. There are still places, like I think the Muppets queue, which still has old tube tvs but sophisticated youth must be all okay with that stuff.
Disney has changed. They now try to give the masses what they want instead of what they never knew they wanted.
 

sporadic

Well-Known Member
Still wondering what this "Mystery Attraction" is for from Jerry Rees site...
http://www.jerryrees.com/page19/page19.html
Whatever it is, it seems to have been re-hashed at least once. Taking a look at the images associated with the page, there was supposed to be something in 2013 as well:

stacks_image_1191_1.png


stacks_image_1209_1.png
 

216bruce

Well-Known Member
Building a quiet (mostly), intelligent (mostly), uplifting (entirely), optimistic (completely) theme park that bases itself on the future and international understanding flies in the face of everything in current popular culture and American society. I can't imagine the original 80's EPCOT being built now, even being proposed without getting laughed out of the Board room. Back in the day the future was positive, technology and it's uses weren't scary. Foreign countries had a sense of wonder and adventure and were.... well....foreign. The world has shrunk incredibly since the mid- late 70's when this was being finalized and the tech revolution is constant and accelerating.
Without getting into much about our national obsession with snark, edge and being jaded by middle school...how could/can EPCOT CENTER work in 2016 except for what it has increasingly become...a place to shop, eat and drink and kill some time with the kids in FW on a couple of 'thrill rides'. Paraphrasing Bones McCoy, "It's dead Jim." well, the spirit of it is...and don't blame the Imagineers. RIP EPCOT.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Building a quiet (mostly), intelligent (mostly), uplifting (entirely), optimistic (completely) theme park that bases itself on the future and international understanding flies in the face of everything in current popular culture and American society. I can't imagine the original 80's EPCOT being built now, even being proposed without getting laughed out of the Board room. Back in the day the future was positive, technology and it's uses weren't scary. Foreign countries had a sense of wonder and adventure and were.... well....foreign. The world has shrunk incredibly since the mid- late 70's when this was being finalized and the tech revolution is constant and accelerating.
Without getting into much about our national obsession with snark, edge and being jaded by middle school...how could/can EPCOT CENTER work in 2016 except for what it has increasingly become...a place to shop, eat and drink and kill some time with the kids in FW on a couple of 'thrill rides'. Paraphrasing Bones McCoy, "It's dead Jim." well, the spirit of it is...and don't blame the Imagineers. RIP EPCOT.
All the more reason why we need something like EPCOT Center now more than ever. To give us a positive view of the future and the world rather than living in fear. Maybe something other than Disney will get this someday.
 

sshindel

The Epcot Manifesto
Ok, I'm going to try and be a little limited on my response here, mostly to keep the people who are sick of hearing me rant about Epcot happy. With your permission, I might try and dig deeper into the question elsewhere, and to try and maintain the No Self Promotion part of the Terms of Use here on the site, I'll not link directly. That deeper dive will likely take me longer to digest and write.

Deep question here (and I don't quite know the answer): Did EPCOT Center truly succeed in inspiring people to create a better future together?
This is probably a question that is factually too difficult to prove Epcot Center's impact on the world at large.
I know I can speak personally and anecdotally from others I've spoken to. I know that Epcot Center did inspire me to explore and learn more about things I'd not thought of previously. It fostered my sense of curiosity and my interest in science. I can trace my current sense of excitement in discovery back to Epcot. I cannot quantitatively measure how much impact it had of course, but I can say for me it did have an impact.
Based on some of the extremely passionate conversations I've had on here with other Epcot Center diehards, I can say that it had an inspirational impact on them as well.
How large that impact was is harder to measure. I might have to do some googling to find quotes about this.

Is the 21st Century we're living today as fulfilling as Danny Kaye promised it would be when he introduced EPCOT?
I'll say that it likely is not, but it's too hard to remove the other billion factors that went into making the 21st century that exists today. Not to get all Ian Malcom Jurassic Park on the question, but how many butterflies have flapped their wings in the past 34 years. I do feel that if we could find a way to measure it's impact, it would be a massive net positive.

Or did EPCOT fail to make a difference in society? Was it really just a corporately-manufactured feel-good fantasyland that was lying to us while taking our money in the 80s?
Indications I've heard from people who tend to know-things about the design of early Epcot Center tend to point to the designers of the park having true grander intentions than making just a money-making theme park. There does seem to be a prevailing opinion that at least a large portion of the people working on Epcot Center fully believing that they were building something more, something with a larger purpose.
I think that if it were a corporately manufactured feel good fantasyland, there were a lot of ways that they could have approached building the park that would have been far more successful at doing so. I think that if they were looking at taking our money in the 80s, or trying to get more money out of, or for, their corporate sponsors, then the sponsors would have been much more integrated into the experiences that were built than what was done.

Could we be more cynical than we were 24 years ago, and could anything truly give us that wide-eyed wonder again?
That is hard for me to judge for the royal We, meaning the world as a whole.
I can say that I am constantly struck with wide-eyed wonder. Since we're in a media-centric culture now, I'll use some examples from that realm. I listen to a lot of podcasts, and there are some that are created with such a passion that it bleeds through into the finished product. Radiolab, Snap Judgement, Freakanomics, heck, a good portion of the million TED talks that exist. I'm constantly struck wide-eyed, sometimes even slack-jawed, when someone with a real passion for a topic brings you deep into that story. Who knew I'd ever sit rapt in my car, parked at home but unable to leave, at a story about the 3 lbs of living microfauna in our intestines that can actually have drastic impacts on our brain, and mental health, expertly told by Radiolab?
Look no farther than Cosmos to something that can give that feeling. The most recent version of that series was the thing that gave me the most Epcot Center feeling I've had in decades.

In other words, I do think that as a species, there is a sense of exploration and discovery that is built deep into our DNA. I think that it's something that is not tapped nearly enough these days, but I think that is exactly what the designers of Epcot Center were trying to do, and what the current Disney corporation is ignoring.

And yes, this was "brief". If I get around to digging deep into this, look out, I'll write thousands upon thousands of words on it.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Ok, I'm going to try and be a little limited on my response here, mostly to keep the people who are sick of hearing me rant about Epcot happy. With your permission, I might try and dig deeper into the question elsewhere, and to try and maintain the No Self Promotion part of the Terms of Use here on the site, I'll not link directly. That deeper dive will likely take me longer to digest and write.


This is probably a question that is factually too difficult to prove Epcot Center's impact on the world at large.
I know I can speak personally and anecdotally from others I've spoken to. I know that Epcot Center did inspire me to explore and learn more about things I'd not thought of previously. It fostered my sense of curiosity and my interest in science. I can trace my current sense of excitement in discovery back to Epcot. I cannot quantitatively measure how much impact it had of course, but I can say for me it did have an impact.
Based on some of the extremely passionate conversations I've had on here with other Epcot Center diehards, I can say that it had an inspirational impact on them as well.
How large that impact was is harder to measure. I might have to do some googling to find quotes about this.


I'll say that it likely is not, but it's too hard to remove the other billion factors that went into making the 21st century that exists today. Not to get all Ian Malcom Jurassic Park on the question, but how many butterflies have flapped their wings in the past 34 years. I do feel that if we could find a way to measure it's impact, it would be a massive net positive.


Indications I've heard from people who tend to know-things about the design of early Epcot Center tend to point to the designers of the park having true grander intentions than making just a money-making theme park. There does seem to be a prevailing opinion that at least a large portion of the people working on Epcot Center fully believing that they were building something more, something with a larger purpose.
I think that if it were a corporately manufactured feel good fantasyland, there were a lot of ways that they could have approached building the park that would have been far more successful at doing so. I think that if they were looking at taking our money in the 80s, or trying to get more money out of, or for, their corporate sponsors, then the sponsors would have been much more integrated into the experiences that were built than what was done.


That is hard for me to judge for the royal We, meaning the world as a whole.
I can say that I am constantly struck with wide-eyed wonder. Since we're in a media-centric culture now, I'll use some examples from that realm. I listen to a lot of podcasts, and there are some that are created with such a passion that it bleeds through into the finished product. Radiolab, Snap Judgement, Freakanomics, heck, a good portion of the million TED talks that exist. I'm constantly struck wide-eyed, sometimes even slack-jawed, when someone with a real passion for a topic brings you deep into that story. Who knew I'd ever sit rapt in my car, parked at home but unable to leave, at a story about the 3 lbs of living microfauna in our intestines that can actually have drastic impacts on our brain, and mental health, expertly told by Radiolab?
Look no farther than Cosmos to something that can give that feeling. The most recent version of that series was the thing that gave me the most Epcot Center feeling I've had in decades.

In other words, I do think that as a species, there is a sense of exploration and discovery that is built deep into our DNA. I think that it's something that is not tapped nearly enough these days, but I think that is exactly what the designers of Epcot Center were trying to do, and what the current Disney corporation is ignoring.

And yes, this was "brief". If I get around to digging deep into this, look out, I'll write thousands upon thousands of words on it.
Cosmos was absolutely fantastic. I should buy the Blu-Ray and watch it again.
 

George

Liker of Things
Premium Member
Who knew I'd ever sit rapt in my car, parked at home but unable to leave, at a story about the 3 lbs of living microfauna in our intestines that can actually have drastic impacts on our brain, and mental health, expertly told by Radiolab?
Tangent: This has been one of my favorite topics for years. I've actually been banned at lunch for railing against the fact that fecal matter transplants aren't more available in the United States. Maybe I should be a podcast guy like all you young hipsters.

Also, EPCOT did inspire me. I spent countless hours there in junior high and high school (1983-1988 in my case). When I was in grad school (1992-1997 time frame) my then girlfriend, now wife, and 3 fellow chemistry graduate students from France drove down central Florida to spend the day at EPCOT. If I could, I would travel back in time and duct tape Jean-Marc's mouth closed because he wouldn't stop singing the Imagination song on the way back to Tally. They all loved it. I can't count the number of hours spent there during those years either. I can honestly say, I've been in central Florida many times over the last decade and though I don't mind going to EPCOT it is no longer a must do. *sigh*

I should note, that even if EPCOT's change in direction has resulted in increased attendance (a fact which can never be truly known) I am fairly certain that the nerdlingers of yesterday are, on the whole, doing OK financially today and would be far more likely to drop some serious coin in the joint if a more inspirational, thoughtful, and forward looking place existed (this can never be truly known either, but I think it is correct). I don't think all the decisions made to fill coffers at a faster rate always have the vector pointing in the direction management would desire.
 

FigmentJedi

Well-Known Member
I'll do some arm chair imagineering as well: The Living Seas sponsored by Animal Planet, hosted by Jeremy Wade.
I don't want Human Planet anywhere near the Seas. Give me something presented by the SeaOrbiter and National Geographic. The SeaOrbiter is the most Epcot worthy thing I've seen in years
 

216bruce

Well-Known Member
All the more reason why we need something like EPCOT Center now more than ever. To give us a positive view of the future and the world rather than living in fear. Maybe something other than Disney will get this someday.
Agreed, but I really don't see it happening. Pretty much every large theme park investment world-wide is based on a a specific IP. Potter, SW, Avatar, Marvel. How do you sell a 'brand or IP' of hope, wonder, optimism to a bunch of un-creative 'suits'? They'll want to know where the tie-ins are in merch, "How can it be vertically integrated into the rest of the company with TV or film or the web?" Kind of hard to do with an idea or emotion. Maybe in another time, but certainly not now.
 

hpyhnt 1000

Well-Known Member
In other words, I do think that as a species, there is a sense of exploration and discovery that is built deep into our DNA. I think that it's something that is not tapped nearly enough these days, but I think that is exactly what the designers of Epcot Center were trying to do, and what the current Disney corporation is ignoring.

Nice "brief" thoughts, @sshindel. Unfortunately, my response probably won't be as succinct!

The paragraph that's quoted is particularly true. People still go to museums, listen to podcasts, and attend lectures. TED talks exists and events like SxSW continue to make headlines. There is definitely still a "hunger" for knowledge and information and problem solving. That said, I do think there is an emerging disconnect in presenting information to the public and what is the best way to do so. It especially seems that there's a growing part of the public that isn't interested, for lack of better words, in spending "extra" time trying to learn things. They are still curious, but not to the point where they are willing to sit through lectures or documentary programs. They need a more engaging or entertaining presentation, more "Big Bang Theory" in its delivery than "Cosmos."

And that is where Epcot can play a role. It can be that "bridge" that presents the tip of the educational iceberg in a fun and engaging way (through rides, shows, etc.) that doesn't immediately alienate large chunks of the population. I always use Living with the Land as an example. There's a reason it's still around almost 35 years since it opened - it's great! I've been on that ride countless times and I have yet to see anyone NOT express amazement and interest during the greenhouse portion. It works because it's genuinely cool, and shows that "edutainment" can still work in a theme park.

Ironically, the argument that "Disney World isn't a museum" almost applies differently to Epcot. I argue that, in some respects, Epcot needs to be run MORE like a museum. Museums are repositories of facts, disseminators of knowledge, amphitheaters where ideas and information are debated - the very things that EPCOT Center did during its first 10 years of existence. Museums are not only about recording the past, they are also about learning for the future. On top of that, museums operate largely on donors and corporate funding, in a very similar way to EPCOT Center. There are countless exhibits across the country that are sponsored by big names. I fail to see why they wouldn't want to associate themselves with a brand as big and popular as Disney.

So bring in a "curator" for Epcot, start a donor outreach program, consult with academics and experts. Pair their knowledge with Imagineering's creative flair and I guarantee you their combined effort could create attractions that blow your socks off. And you know what, you can start small. Host hands-on exhibits in Innoventions. Bring in some speakers to talk about various subjects. Partner with an outside organization to display parts of a collection that would otherwise be in storage. All of these things would cost a fraction of what a new ride would, all would breathe life into dead sections of the park, it can all be quickly undone if it proves unsuccessful, and the best part, all of it ties directly into the roots of EPCOT Center.

$30-40 million (I'm sort of spitballing here) tops to open multiple new "attractions," not to mention the positive publicity that could result in making a push to engage people in science and technology? Sounds like a bargain to me.

In my mind, there is no reason Epcot couldn't eventually achieve the same kind of stature as the Smithsonian, the Louvre, the British Museum, or the Library of Congress. These institutions are synonymous with learning, discovery, knowledge - the very things that applied to EPCOT Center. And people come from all over the world to visit them.

It can happen; the Walt Disney Company need only give it a shot. Give Epcot a purpose and follow through on it and it will succeed. And considering the sorry shape that Epcot finds itself in today, I don't see how this idea is could end up any "worse" than the last 20 years of malaise.
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
I don't want Human Planet anywhere near the Seas. Give me something presented by the SeaOrbiter and National Geographic. The SeaOrbiter is the most Epcot worthy thing I've seen in years
Damn, is this thing for real?!?!?!?! :eek:
article-2500074-195977A100000578-616_964x850.jpg


I get your point on Human Planet (lol), but I still think Jeremy Wade would have a good place in the pavilion. What kid wouldn't be interested in learning about the real life fish that may well have inspired the legend of Sea Serpents? Plus many others.
155652.003.01.197_20160406_121822.jpg

The one in the episode I think was 12 feet. They can grow much bigger.
article-2479631-18C1B53100000578-722_634x389.jpg
 

Mike S

Well-Known Member
Agreed, but I really don't see it happening. Pretty much every large theme park investment world-wide is based on a a specific IP. Potter, SW, Avatar, Marvel. How do you sell a 'brand or IP' of hope, wonder, optimism to a bunch of un-creative 'suits'? They'll want to know where the tie-ins are in merch, "How can it be vertically integrated into the rest of the company with TV or film or the web?" Kind of hard to do with an idea or emotion. Maybe in another time, but certainly not now.
The "something other than Disney" wouldn't have to be a theme park.
 

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