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A really great post on the state of Epcot
- Thread starter tissandtully
- Start date
AEfx
Well-Known Member
Well, that's sort of the crux of "retro-future". We aren't likely to have a lot of those things, ever, really. Unless you are talking 100's of years in the future. That's part of the problem with the original theme, honestly - it banked on guests thinking these things were just a few years away, back when the year 2000 seemed like an eternity from then, and here we are, closing in on two decades into the 21st Century, and all we really have to show for it are Kardashians and smart phones.
Part of the loss people feel over Epcot is because of the loss of that optimism.
MerlinTheGoat
Well-Known Member
I've said this myself before as well. The first several scenes were specifically created to be dated, intended as playful and humorous looks back at how previous generations imagined the future might be. But even the following real future scenes are still inspiring and out of reach. Sure transitional video clips like explaining microchips are quite dated, but the main scenes generally focused on things that most of us are no closer to experiencing than we were in the 1980's, but still things most people would agree are incredibly cool and we wish would happen. Recreational space colonies and underwater cities for instance, and we still don't even have true flying cars. Even the mural still looks futuristic and isn't what I would ever consider dated-
Horizons was actually quite simple and straightforward to update and maintain properly had they just tried. Mission Space ended up being more outdated than Horizons ever was (even when new). The most glaring things would have been some script changes and swapping out different video clips in parts. Or some still minor cosmetic changes such as clothes, hair styles and other simple elements. The technologies that people claim "move too quickly to keep updated" (such as smartphones and other tech trinkets commonly available now) were not really the elements that Horizons (or even other EPCOT pavilions) were primarily focused on in the first place. They were far more ambitious than that.
Spaceship Earth up until 2007 was an example of a ride that was updated properly over its years. And while the current script and descent is very poor at the moment, still the vast majority of the ride has a fantastic base to work with. It has never been overwhelmingly about future technology either. It's theme was the history of communication, with some brief glimpses at the end about the future (with Communicore being the center for future tech). The descent in the Jeremy Irons version was still showcasing some pretty advanced tech than we still haven't gotten working fully, including holographic video phones. Even fiber optic technology is only just now starting to be used in the mainsteam for communication purposes.
World of Motion also didn't warrant removal either, because the majority of the ride didn't even have any scenes that were set in the present or future. Only the ending scenes with the speed tunnel and future city (which make up less than 5% of the experience) needed any updating. The scenes prior to this were all humorous looks back at the past (complete with Marc Davis' comical character designs), the only improvement that could even be made for those would have been upgrading to newer and better animatronic models...
As for Imagination 1.0, there were literally no scene that even needed changing. Again the only possible improvements that could be made are just general tech upgrades to the animatronics, projections and such (no ride is exempt from updates like these either). But otherwise it was still a brilliant ride, and would have remained so.
The Land warrants little to nothing to improve it either.
Universe of Energy probably showed the earliest signs of being dated (Bill Nye and Ellen just made it worse and took away the wonderful musical score as well). The dinosaur section is still very cool when looked at as separate from the rest of the ride (though in need of animatronic updates), but I think a big issue even back then was being sponsored by Exxon. As an oil corporation, they're a highly questionable choice at best for addressing the topic of energy in any sort of unbiased way (this bias shows in the current film clips). And even in the 70's, alternate forms of energy were already being researched and developed heavily. With concerns about pollution starting to get a lot of public attention (even before the Exxon Valdez oil spill in 89). I know they haven't been the sponsor for a while now, but Exxon's fingerprints are still there, even in the Ellen version which was made years after the spill. Again this pavilion is still perfectly salvageable, but i'd say it was and is in need of the most work out of all the original EPCOT pavilions (even more so than Horizons). The thing i'd be saddest to lose are the dinosaurs.
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AEfx
Well-Known Member
I think the difference is, in the 1980's we actually still believed they were just around the corner...now, we know better. So it's more fanciful than forward looking.
MerlinTheGoat
Well-Known Member
Except these were not some sort of new and soon to be implemented ideas in the 80's either. Horizon's concepts date back decades, arguably even back to the 1800's with some of Jules Verne's work. Just with different ways of achieving such ideas. The concepts of space colonies, underwater cities, flying cars and countless other things were dreamed up long before Horizons came to be.
I'm not breaking new ground here by saying this, but governments would rather spend money on more destructive ventures such as war than actually improving society and making the world a better place. And corporate entities like gambling-addicted banks further siphon billions away in their bailouts. People are easily manipulated into supporting these actions when fear and hatred is so easy to exploit in media (this has only gotten easier to do with smartphones). So the vast majority of attention and money goes to war, bailouts and other horribly wasteful ventures while we invest little to nothing by comparison in trying to advance more constructive and peaceful ventures.
Mike S
Well-Known Member
One could argue holographic video phones not being viewed as futuristic by the public since everyone has that tech in their pockets. It's just not holographic. Everything else you said is so true though. In one post you completely squashed the "internet ruined Epcot and forced them to change it!!!" argument. The future depicted in the park may never have been realistically right around the corner, but it inspired us for whatever amazing things our futures held. Now....... not so much.I've said this myself before as well. The first several scenes were specifically created to be dated, intended as playful and humorous looks back at how previous generations imagined the future might be. But even the following real future scenes are still inspiring and out of reach. Sure transitional video clips like explaining microchips are quite dated, but the main scenes generally focused on things that most of us are no closer to experiencing than we were in the 1980's, but still things most people would agree are incredibly cool and we wish would happen. Recreational space colonies and underwater cities for instance, and we still don't even have true flying cars. Even the mural still looks futuristic and isn't what I would ever consider dated-
Horizons was actually quite simple and straightforward to update and maintain properly had they just tried. Mission Space ended up being more outdated than Horizons ever was (even when new). The most glaring things would have been some script changes and swapping out different video clips in parts. Or some still minor cosmetic changes such as clothes, hair styles and other simple elements. The technologies that people claim "move too quickly to keep updated" were not really the elements that Horizons or even other EPCOT pavilions were primarily focused on.
Spaceship Earth up until 2007 was an example of a ride that was updated properly over its years. And while the current script and descent is very poor at the moment, still the vast majority of the ride has a fantastic base to work with. It has never been overwhelmingly about future technology either. It's theme was the history of communication, with some brief glimpses at the end about the future (with Communicore being the center for future tech). The descent in the Jeremy Irons version was still showcasing some pretty advanced tech than we still haven't gotten working fully, including holographic video phones. Even fiber optic technology is only just now starting to be used in the mainsteam for communication purposes.
World of Motion also didn't warrant removal either, because the majority of the ride didn't even have any scenes that were set in the present or future. Only the ending scenes with the speed tunnel and future city (which make up less than 5% of the experience) needed any updating. The scenes prior to this were all humorous looks back at the past (complete with Marc Davis' comical character designs), the only improvement that could even be made for those would have been upgrading to newer and better animatronic models...
As for Imagination 1.0, there were literally no scene that even needed changing. Again the only possible improvements that could be made are just general tech upgrades to the animatronics, projections and such (no ride is exempt from updates like these either). But otherwise it was still a brilliant ride, and would have remained so.
The Land warrants little to nothing to improve it either.
Universe of Energy probably showed the earliest signs of being dated (Bill Nye and Ellen just made it worse and took away the wonderful musical score as well). The dinosaur section is still very cool when looked at as separate from the rest of the ride (though in need of animatronic updates), but I think a big issue even back then was being sponsored by Exxon. As an oil corporation, they're a highly questionable choice at best for addressing the topic of energy in any sort of unbiased way (this bias shows in the current film clips). And even in the 70's, alternate forms of energy were already being researched and developed heavily. With concerns about pollution starting to get a lot of public attention (even before the Exxon Valdez oil spill in 89). I know they haven't been the sponsor for a while now, but Exxon's fingerprints are still there, even in the Ellen version which was made years after the spill. Again this pavilion is still perfectly salvageable, but i'd say it was and is in need of the most work out of all the original EPCOT pavilions (even more so than Horizons). The thing i'd be saddest to lose are the dinosaurs.
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Smiddimizer
Well-Known Member
Armchair imagineering in 3...2...
If Horizons was still standing, looking exactly as it did in 1985, it would look a little dated. The 80s version of the future has become one of those vignettes from the first part of the ride, a historical version of the future. I'm talking about the costumes, the overly cheeky, earnest dialogue, the space crystals...
Don't get me wrong, I would have loved every minute of it. But I'm special.
I can see why Joe Public would find it hilariously old-fashioned, or else be entertained by its nostalgia and/or retro futurism. But that's assuming it would have never been updated. What's sad is that the sheer motivation to build something inspiring has become politicized. Now people see EPCOT as a symbol of the corporate establishment, and think Walt Disney was an antisemite, or a Pinko-hater, even a fraud. Maybe they associate the optimism of Epcot Center with Reaganomics and neoconservatism or something, I don't know...
But for now I think we need a new kind of idealism that is also realistic, and isn't vulnerable to this kind of crap. And this is the kind of attitude I would like to see in a New Horizons. We don't need the doll-like faces and the cheeky dialogue. These people don't know they're in the future, why are they so happy?
Keep it realistic; these are real people living out their daily lives, even if it's "amazing what that variable solar control can do". Leave the marvelling to us.
And for God's sake, have some humour in it. This might sound contradictory to what I just wrote above, but as much as I love Horizons, I admire the light-heartedness of World of Motion more. From what I can tell, a lot of the old Epcot Center was very self-serious and imposing, sort of like the old Vic Perrin narration of SSE, or the blaring entrance theme that sounds like you're entering the Olympic stadium. I'd tone that down a bit too. Personally.
If Horizons was still standing, looking exactly as it did in 1985, it would look a little dated. The 80s version of the future has become one of those vignettes from the first part of the ride, a historical version of the future. I'm talking about the costumes, the overly cheeky, earnest dialogue, the space crystals...
Don't get me wrong, I would have loved every minute of it. But I'm special.
I can see why Joe Public would find it hilariously old-fashioned, or else be entertained by its nostalgia and/or retro futurism. But that's assuming it would have never been updated. What's sad is that the sheer motivation to build something inspiring has become politicized. Now people see EPCOT as a symbol of the corporate establishment, and think Walt Disney was an antisemite, or a Pinko-hater, even a fraud. Maybe they associate the optimism of Epcot Center with Reaganomics and neoconservatism or something, I don't know...But for now I think we need a new kind of idealism that is also realistic, and isn't vulnerable to this kind of crap. And this is the kind of attitude I would like to see in a New Horizons. We don't need the doll-like faces and the cheeky dialogue. These people don't know they're in the future, why are they so happy?
Keep it realistic; these are real people living out their daily lives, even if it's "amazing what that variable solar control can do". Leave the marvelling to us.And for God's sake, have some humour in it. This might sound contradictory to what I just wrote above, but as much as I love Horizons, I admire the light-heartedness of World of Motion more. From what I can tell, a lot of the old Epcot Center was very self-serious and imposing, sort of like the old Vic Perrin narration of SSE, or the blaring entrance theme that sounds like you're entering the Olympic stadium. I'd tone that down a bit too. Personally.
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Mike S
Well-Known Member
I'll do some arm chair imagineering as well: The Living Seas sponsored by Animal Planet, hosted by Jeremy Wade.Armchair imagineering in 3...2...
If Horizons was still standing, looking exactly as it did in 1985, it would look a little dated. The 80s version of the future has become one of those vignettes from the first part of the ride, a historical version of the future. I'm talking about the costumes, the overly cheeky, earnest dialogue, the space crystals...
Don't get me wrong, I would have loved every minute of it. But I'm special.
But for now I think we need a new kind of idealism that is also realistic, and isn't vulnerable to this kind of crap. And this is the kind of attitude I would like to see in a New Horizons. We don't need the doll-like faces and the cheeky dialogue. These people don't know they're in the future, why are they so happy?
And for God's sake, have some humour in it. This might sound contradictory to what I just wrote above, but as much as I love Horizons, I admire the light-heartedness of World of Motion more. From what I can tell, a lot of the old Epcot Center was very self-serious and imposing, sort of like the old Vic Perrin narration of SSE, or the blaring entrance theme that sounds like you're entering the Olympic stadium. I'd tone that down a bit too. Personally.
Smiddimizer
Well-Known Member
Awesome. Or how about Cosmos: The Ride? A Mythbusters show? Journey into Imagination sponsored by The History Channel?
Call us, Bob. We're full of them.
Mike S
Well-Known Member
Lol, not that farAwesome. Or how about Cosmos: The Ride? A Mythbusters show? Journey into Imagination sponsored by The History Channel?
Call us, Bob. We're full of them.
I just thought he would make a great host. Neil deGrasse Tyson would too for a new space pavilion.
Smiddimizer
Well-Known Member
Lol, not that far
He probably wouldn't want to be associated with the company that runs Star Wars.
prberk
Well-Known Member
While I understand where you all are coming from, I do not think that the Internet is the be-all and end-all of inspiration to learn. If that is case then we might as well just shut down schools as well, and all stay on our phones all day long. Never bother with the smells and grandeur of people, places, and true experience. Just watch it all on a screen and think you know about it.
Ask any mechanic or doctor if you can completely know everything from a video, even if they give you a good start. Just like television and books before that, the internet opens up new worlds -- and Disney famously leveraged television for that with its "People and Places" and "True-Life Adventures" series on film and the Mickey Mouse Club. But the physical parks give another dimension to everything. It gave us a way, yes, to see our characters come alive, but it also gave us opportunities to be inspired, to be transported to foreign lands and to dream. EPCOT Center understood that balance, and can still be useful in that way today.
Read the article's final two paragraphs if you want to understand what I mean, because I agree with him completely.
Yes, the internet has its place and can be inspirational, but so can EPCOT in ways that are different from what the internet has to offer. It is a showplace that lives in three dimensions, and one that you experience in person with your family while on vacation -- sometimes in a jaded situation, but for many people (especially children of the ages he discussed) it still offers the unique opportunity to inspire in ways that a screen cannot, and in a way to share with your kids in a way the internet cannot. (Think about the many discussions here where people have complained about the lazy use of screens at WDW in place of truly immersive experiences for which it used to be famous.)
Anyway, I think it cuts us all short to say that the internet killed the idea of a real place dedicated to innovation and inspiration.
Otherwise, turn out the lights at the museums, cathedrals, libraries, schools, and great performance halls when everyone has an iPhone... (I mean why visit the Mona Lisa when you have seen it on your screen? Why go to a concert when you have the artist's studio album on Spotify?)
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Thanks phoenicians
Well-Known Member
I'm sure none of the money will ever make it to epcot but what is/was going to happen with the 350k that was rumored to be going to the park?
Mike S
Well-Known Member
Wasn't it $350 million?
Awesome. Or how about Cosmos: The Ride? A Mythbusters show? Journey into Imagination sponsored by The History Channel?
Call us, Bob. We're full of them.
I've been dreaming about a ride that takes us through the history of navigation. In the beginning we have to stay close to shore. By the end we're dropping off the ledge into a wide open space as we become 1600 MHz GPS signal heading off into space. Of course, in between we learn about lighthouses, sextants, stars, the moon, and the tides. Each ride vehicle looks different since they are boats from different cultures and different eras. I've got it all designed in ye olde noggin' Disney. My consultant fee is unlimited donuts and coffee. I should note, for those of you familiar with it, this would be done in the style of "The Day the Universe Changed" since many of the technologies designed for improved navigation have impacted life, politics, and culture. Actually, a "The Day the Universe Changed" pavilion would be quite fantastic.
I think a Cosmos pavilion is such a slam dunk. It wouldn't even have to have a ride per se. Of course, the world's bestest planetarium would be an eye popping centerpiece. During the show we'd move from near earth orbit to the furthest reaches of observable space. It would move in time from the creation of the universe to speculation about if/when/how the universe would end. You would occasionally catch brief glimpses of the Tardis as we move through time and space (this will be synergistic with the Dr. Who meet and greet in the UK in the Tardis and yes it would be bigger on the inside...and unlike you young'uns, I'm most excited to queue up for the Tom Baker look a like).
I personally think Horizons was the greatest dark ride ever built and was the heart of EPCOT and that with a little updating it would still be relevant. But, that is old news and I am over it. I do wish what was the greatest theme park in history would reverse its slow decay into unimpressiveness.
Sorry for the imagineering tangent. I love thinking about it. Almost forget, the Cosmos planetarium can host a laser show at night based on The Wall. :lookaroun
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AEfx
Well-Known Member
You missed the finer point there - all that is true, I about said as much (in fewer words, at least, for a change LOL) - but the difference was as young people experiencing Epcot in the 1980's, we didn't know that yet.
Now, we have "grown up" and know better - and the ever-increasing sophistication of youth of today knows better, as well (the simple impracticality of energy usage let alone the dozens of other reasons would set them off).
That's why, yes, some of the retro-future stuff would have to be gone by now, anyway, lest it be an antiquated memorial to the late 1970's/early 1980's - that doesn't mean that Horizons couldn't (or shouldn't) still be there. I wish it was as much as anyone. But there is a reason the World's Fair in it's prime was a traveling event and not a static location, and the EPCOT experiment proved out why - unless you are going to continue to pour money in to update constantly, some themes/concepts are simply impossible to maintain and stay "future-looking" - it's a (losing) fight to stay current, at best.
AEfx
Well-Known Member
You know, that would be a nice update of Soarin'.
BTW, you just described one of the precursors to Buzz Lightyear at the MK - If You Had Wings (alternatively in several other later versions depending on who the sponsor was).
Off to YouTube you go to check it out
You know, that would be a nice update of Soarin'.
BTW, you just described one of the precursors to Buzz Lightyear at the MK - If You Had Wings (alternatively in several other later versions depending on who the sponsor was).
Off to YouTube you go to check it out
I'm a heading to bed a bit confused. I rode If You Had Wings many times. I was a kid....I remember the Eastern Airlines version, Disney's name being on it...maybe even a brief period of time where Delta was a sponsor...my history of navigation is not focused so much on flying to tropical locales. Unless your talking about the Cosmos thing in which case I'm even more confused.
Now across from If You Had Wings was the Flight to the Moon which later became Mission to Mars. Kind of cosomological, but really focused one space flight to one specific hunk of rock. Anyway, I'm confused but not concerned. Explain what I'm stupidly missing.
I should note, I'm not taking time to watch the video because I don't want that weird, ambient, repetitive If you had wings songs stuck in mind. I'm already fighting it just thinking about it.
MerlinTheGoat
Well-Known Member
I'm quite certain an immense quantity of young people were already well aware of the concepts of deep space travel/colonies, flying cars and the like (just as an example, many people from the 60's well into even the 2000's knew about the Jetsons before exposure to WDW). Some may have had that first exposure with Horizons, but a lot were already aware beforehand and that isn't why we were so in awe of it.
The difference with riding Horizons was being so expertly transported via Imagineering's fantastic storytelling and incredible physical show scenes. I can read Jules Verne or all the new scientific discoveries, or watch movies and documentaries about futuristic concepts (and of course those are wonderful too). But actually seeing Disney's old masterful creative force craft richly detailed scenes that can so effectively transport and immerse you into those places and times yourself (as if you're actually stepping into a different world and time), it's simply something else. It's what they always did so well, and that's what made the original EPCOT Center and its classic attractions so incredible. I'll take a great yet dated attraction like Horizons over a poorly done modern one like Mission Space any day.
Neither I nor anyone else is advocating that Horizons should have remained as it was forever. It was ready for a nice update in the mid 90's, and there were plans to give it a SSE94-style overhaul before Disney found a new sponsor willing to pay (if they agreed to do something different). But even a very "outdated" but high quality ride has merit and entertainment because of the reasons I mentioned above. I just rode the ET Universal ride for the first time the other day. And while it has parts some might consider dated or in need of plussing, it has already quickly earned a place among some of my favorite rides (shame if the rumors of its closure for Nintendo end up happening).
The difference with riding Horizons was being so expertly transported via Imagineering's fantastic storytelling and incredible physical show scenes. I can read Jules Verne or all the new scientific discoveries, or watch movies and documentaries about futuristic concepts (and of course those are wonderful too). But actually seeing Disney's old masterful creative force craft richly detailed scenes that can so effectively transport and immerse you into those places and times yourself (as if you're actually stepping into a different world and time), it's simply something else. It's what they always did so well, and that's what made the original EPCOT Center and its classic attractions so incredible. I'll take a great yet dated attraction like Horizons over a poorly done modern one like Mission Space any day.
Neither I nor anyone else is advocating that Horizons should have remained as it was forever. It was ready for a nice update in the mid 90's, and there were plans to give it a SSE94-style overhaul before Disney found a new sponsor willing to pay (if they agreed to do something different). But even a very "outdated" but high quality ride has merit and entertainment because of the reasons I mentioned above. I just rode the ET Universal ride for the first time the other day. And while it has parts some might consider dated or in need of plussing, it has already quickly earned a place among some of my favorite rides (shame if the rumors of its closure for Nintendo end up happening).
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Smiddimizer
Well-Known Member
Ooh I'm getting an Adventures Thru Inner Space Vibe here. Would it be a boat ride without water then?
I like it, George, I like it!As long as the light show skipped the random "ya can't eat yer puddin if ya don't eat yer meat" interludes, I'm in. Or maybe that's the best part...