A fix for Genie+

[larryz]

Of course you can do that with any expense. A fajita platter at Pecos Bill’s is $15. Everyone in the family of 5 has to eat lunch every day. A resort room is $300/night for 7 nights, etc.

Imagine how much that platter will be when WDW figures out how to "demand price" it.

I’m not minimizing the costs involved, and I hate Genie+. I would love to have free FP+ back. But it’s ridiculous to talk in terms of “class warfare” or start labeling people selfish for buying a product that Disney is offering.

Time is the product, and Disney is selling other people's time like a Berlin black-marketeer selling bread right after WWII.

It’s silly to pretend that only the wealthy can afford Genie+. The current problems with it stem from the fact that so many people are buying it that it’s not working as it should. There’s not enough inventory to satisfy the demand. My fear is that Disney’s going to try to solve this problem by raising the price.

I expect part of the system "fix" rumored to be in the works will be that $30 price I mentioned in an earlier post. We'll see what that does to demand.

 

[Chi84]

I agree that if cheat-the-line is available at a cost, it's not the fault of the guests who buy it. I completely agree with that actually. I can't speak for others, but I personally blame Disney for providing it. It's not an equitable solution after already jacking up prices on everyone. Disney is picking "winners", specifically the more wealthy as opposed to the middle class family. OR, a middle class family can give Disney the extra money they can't afford to give for the experience. The problem is that if everyone buys it, it no longer is an advantage. All you've done is pass through an ala carte price increase.

But I do agree that the guest who purchase it is not to blame. Please don't lose the context of my "selfish" comment. I said it due to some individuals making comments about I'll see you in line as I pass you, or something like that. That's just a sh**ty attitude that shows selfishness.

One last comment, your example of the fajita platter doesn't equate. Fajitas were never free perks before, and the experience has always been that either you get it, or you don't. If you want to equate it to this situation, let's say your $15 fajita platter now costs $23 for everyone, and if you want yours in 10 mins pay an extra $7 and we'll prioritize the making of your platter ahead of those who don't pay the $7 surcharge. So now you get your $30 fajita in 10 mins, and rather than getting mine in 30 mins, I now have to wait 50 mins. I think that better represents what G+ does.... and btw, that would get the same complaints.

You have me so confused I think I’ll just get the burger instead.

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

You have me so confused I think I’ll just get the burger instead.

If you pay an extra $15 for the day, and buy a $10 ILL, I'll get you your burger in 10 mins, and George over at table 16 can wait an extra 20 mins for his since he didn't pay the surcharge. I offered it to him too, but he told me to eff myself.

 

[ceecee101]

Curious why Disney did not elect to do the Premier and Premier Ultimate passes that they have at DLP? Seems to be a much simpler system. Don’t blast me, I am just getting back up to speed on all this having not been for over 10 years.

 

[cm1988]

Correct; people don’t want an all-standby system. People don’t want to wait their turn. They’re looking for a way to get around it.

People… self included!… don’t want to do a lot of things that living within a society forces us to do. Sometimes it’s practical to get in line, be patient, and take our turn.

A free, practical, better-designed virtual queue system might free us from standing in a long line, resenting each other.

Disney doesn't have the right ride capacity or demographic to run a successful, paid line-skip program. They can't charge a ton of money for a handful of rides because people won't pay it. And if they charge a reasonable amount, everyone will pay it and the system won't work.

But (1) people don't want to stand in lines when they could be doing something else, (2) every major theme park has a line-skip system and (3) Disney doesn't want long lines because of (1) and (2). So for many years we had a free, unsuccessful line-skip system that worked very well for some but not others. Now we have a paid, unsuccessful line-skip system that doesn't seem to work for anyone (according to reported guest satisfactions surveys).

The one thing I'm sure we will never have is an all-standby system, no matter how "fair" some people think it is. Because, quite frankly, people don't want it.

 

[Disstevefan1]

Isn’t that what the Genie part of this mess is supposed to be?

I think Genie is designed to push guests to attractions, food locations where it's the less crowded, not what you want to do or where you want to go,

 

[Chi84]

Correct; people don’t want an all-standby system. People don’t want to wait their turn. They’re looking for a way to get around it.

People… self included!… don’t want to do a lot of things that living within a society forces us to do. Sometimes it’s practical to get in line, be patient, and take our turn.

A free, practical, better-designed virtual queue system might free us from standing in a long line, resenting each other.

I do agree with you as far as living in society forcing us to do certain things. But no one is forced to go to a theme park. It’s not exactly part of the social contract.

Theme parks are free to adopt whatever system works best for its business and people are free to patronize the park or not.

All major theme parks have line skip systems and I doubt WDW will end up being the only one without one. If they do go all standby there will be a lot of people - myself included - who will just go somewhere else.

We had a free system. People wanted something better. This is what we got.

 

[cm1988]

It’s a pretty well understood fact that no one has to go to a theme park. I’m saddened to think that “something better” means cutting in line in front of other humans. That’s better for the person who can afford to do it.

I attempted to make a point about our culture in general. We pay to cut in line on highway express lanes. We pay to cut in line at airport boarding gates. Once on board, if we have paid a lot more we get more legroom while seats are jammed together on the other side of that curtain.

That is at the core of our social order and is driven by a lack of equal regard for the humans around us. We want better for ourselves and many of us are not distressed by seeing the obvious impact on “strangers”. I’m just sayin’ it bothers me and as a result theme parks are no longer fun for me. As you pointed out, I and those who are likewise saddened to see it are not forced to attend theme parks.

 

[drizgirl]

All this arguing about people stealing time from other people, people cutting in line, whether people are forced to be at the theme park.

This ultimately comes down to Disney pitting one guest against the other in a battle for whether they can actually do the things they paid to be in the park to do. This is on Disney for not keeping attraction capacity up with crowd levels. This isn’t about people fighting each other. It’s about Disney letting their guests down.

 

[Thepuma]

The best fix for Genie+ , scrap it, go back to FP+ and if Disney as a company are that desperate to screw people over for money then charge $15 for it.

I see no version of Genie+ that will be any good. Any adjustments they make for it always appear to be for the worse.

 

[Chi84]

It’s a pretty well understood fact that no one has to go to a theme park. I’m saddened to think that “something better” means cutting in line in front of other humans. That’s better for the person who can afford to do it.

I attempted to make a point about our culture in general. We pay to cut in line on highway express lanes. We pay to cut in line at airport boarding gates. Once on board, if we have paid a lot more we get more legroom while seats are jammed together on the other side of that curtain.

That is at the core of our social order and is driven by a lack of equal regard for the humans around us. We want better for ourselves and many of us are not distressed by seeing the obvious impact on “strangers”. I’m just sayin’ it bothers me and as a result theme parks are no longer fun for me. As you pointed out, I and those who are likewise saddened to see it are not forced to attend theme parks.

Yes, people who have money get more/better things and experiences. If you think that's particular to our culture or our time in history, you're incorrect. It will be that way as long as doctors make more money than McDonalds cashiers.

 

[Chi84]

All this arguing about people stealing time from other people, people cutting in line, whether people are forced to be at the theme park.

This ultimately comes down to Disney pitting one guest against the other in a battle for whether they can actually do the things they paid to be in the park to do. This is on Disney for not keeping attraction capacity up with crowd levels. This isn’t about people fighting each other. It’s about Disney letting their guests down.

You're absolutely correct. And I believe that's the reason WDW ran a free fast pass system for over 20 years. They needed a system where people who would not (or could not comfortably) stand in long lines all day would still consider a visit to WDW. Disney attracts many multi-generational families with older people or very young kids who would not otherwise visit.

I know that there are a lot of posters here who believe those people should not be taken into account or should either deal with it or go somewhere else, but that's not how Disney feels. Until recently, they had a free system that anyone could use to skip the lines on a few attractions each day. Now we are paying for a far inferior system. That's entirely on Disney, not on the guests. They don't have the ride capacity to charge a lot for a skip the line system, and the one they have now is not working because nearly everyone is paying for it out of necessity.

I don't know what Disney is going to do about this mess, but I hope they come up with something better than what they have now.

 

[crazy4disney]

You're absolutely correct. And I believe that's the reason WDW ran a free fast pass system for over 20 years. They needed a system where people who would not (or could not comfortably) stand in long lines all day would still consider a visit to WDW. Disney attracts many multi-generational families with older people or very young kids who would not otherwise visit.

I know that there are a lot of posters here who believe those people should not be taken into account or should either deal with it or go somewhere else, but that's not how Disney feels. Until recently, they had a free system that anyone could use to skip the lines on a few attractions each day. Now we are paying for a far inferior system. That's entirely on Disney, not on the guests. They don't have the ride capacity to charge a lot for a skip the line system, and the one they have now is not working because nearly everyone is paying for it out of necessity.

I don't know what Disney is going to do about this mess, but I hope they come up with something better than what they have now.

unfortunately we know the answer more capacity and we know the disney response is going to be nothing anytime soon... if they did things properly over the last couple years they could have easily been in a better position now to handle genie and capacity issues and built more on that but they have dropped the ball for years now with no real end in sight sadly.

 

[Jrb1979]

You're absolutely correct. And I believe that's the reason WDW ran a free fast pass system for over 20 years. They needed a system where people who would not (or could not comfortably) stand in long lines all day would still consider a visit to WDW. Disney attracts many multi-generational families with older people or very young kids who would not otherwise visit.

I know that there are a lot of posters here who believe those people should not be taken into account or should either deal with it or go somewhere else, but that's not how Disney feels. Until recently, they had a free system that anyone could use to skip the lines on a few attractions each day. Now we are paying for a far inferior system. That's entirely on Disney, not on the guests. They don't have the ride capacity to charge a lot for a skip the line system, and the one they have now is not working because nearly everyone is paying for it out of necessity.

I don't know what Disney is going to do about this mess, but I hope they come up with something better than what they have now.

I'm thinking that's doubtful as it was just posted in the Genie+ thread by @disneyglimpses that upper management don't care about the GSAT or that it's inferior. They like the money it generates.

 

[SteveAZee]

It’s a pretty well understood fact that no one has to go to a theme park. I’m saddened to think that “something better” means cutting in line in front of other humans. That’s better for the person who can afford to do it.

I attempted to make a point about our culture in general. We pay to cut in line on highway express lanes. We pay to cut in line at airport boarding gates. Once on board, if we have paid a lot more we get more legroom while seats are jammed together on the other side of that curtain.

That is at the core of our social order and is driven by a lack of equal regard for the humans around us. We want better for ourselves and many of us are not distressed by seeing the obvious impact on “strangers”. I’m just sayin’ it bothers me and as a result theme parks are no longer fun for me. As you pointed out, I and those who are likewise saddened to see it are not forced to attend theme parks.

I think there are some things that we're supposed to have equality for (the justice system, access to fire and police protection, etc) and even there we struggle.

In a free market, for better or worse, some people create greater value than others... not me nor government or any thing other than the free market. Yes it can be warped and unfair at times, and it can even seem strange (celebrities and sports figures come to mind) but the system rewards those that provide a product or service really wanted and desired by others. It doesn't say anything about the quality or kindness or character of the person, just what skills/talents/training they've brought to the market and been rewarded for it.

One good way to please as many people in the free market as possible is to offer multiple price points for similar products... cheap, mid-range, and luxury cars. Services too... counter service, table service, fine dining. Disney is doing this too... providing goods and services at a variety of price points. In the parks they sell access to their rides with shorter lines for a price... and some people don't find it worth it and some do.

I'm sorry that it has caused you to find the parks no longer fun. Perhaps because you felt Disney had felt like an egalitarian bubble inside a free market economy... or if it wasn't, at least it was subtle. As prices have gone up and stratification along how much a guest pays has grown more and more pronounced, it can feel a bit like a caste system.

From my view, though, it's how one perceives it that makes the difference.

 

[crazy4disney]

I think there are some things that we're supposed to have equality for (the justice system, access to fire and police protection, etc) and even there we struggle.

In a free market, for better or worse, some people create greater value than others... not me nor government or any thing other than the free market. Yes it can be warped and unfair at times, and it can even seem strange (celebrities and sports figures come to mind) but the system rewards those that provide a product or service really wanted and desired by others. It doesn't say anything about the quality or kindness or character of the person, just what skills/talents/training they've brought to the market and been rewarded for it.

One good way to please as many people in the free market as possible is to offer multiple price points for similar products... cheap, mid-range, and luxury cars. Services too... counter service, table service, fine dining. Disney is doing this too... providing goods and services at a variety of price points. In the parks they sell access to their rides with shorter lines for a price... and some people don't find it worth it and some do.

I'm sorry that it has caused you to find the parks no longer fun. Perhaps because you felt Disney had felt like an egalitarian bubble inside a free market economy... or if it wasn't, at least it was subtle. As prices have gone up and stratification along how much a guest pays has grown more and more pronounced, it can feel a bit like a caste system.

From my view, though, it's how one perceives it that makes the difference.

I totally agree & honestly per day my Disney trip cost me less for me & my daughter than each of my other vacations… so again i know its a hot take but to me if you stay value or even moderate its far from a ridiculously priced vacation…

 

[cm1988]

I think there are some things that we're supposed to have equality for (the justice system, access to fire and police protection, etc) and even there we struggle.

In a free market, for better or worse, some people create greater value than others... not me nor government or any thing other than the free market. Yes it can be warped and unfair at times, and it can even seem strange (celebrities and sports figures come to mind) but the system rewards those that provide a product or service really wanted and desired by others. It doesn't say anything about the quality or kindness or character of the person, just what skills/talents/training they've brought to the market and been rewarded for it.

One good way to please as many people in the free market as possible is to offer multiple price points for similar products... cheap, mid-range, and luxury cars. Services too... counter service, table service, fine dining. Disney is doing this too... providing goods and services at a variety of price points. In the parks they sell access to their rides with shorter lines for a price... and some people don't find it worth it and some do.

I'm sorry that it has caused you to find the parks no longer fun. Perhaps because you felt Disney had felt like an egalitarian bubble inside a free market economy... or if it wasn't, at least it was subtle. As prices have gone up and stratification along how much a guest pays has grown more and more pronounced, it can feel a bit like a caste system.

From my view, though, it's how one perceives it that makes the difference.

Thank you, really. And those thanks are not intended to be sarcastic. Your thoughtful reply clarified something for me: the core of what disappoints me about WDW today, and society in general.

That is, as you correctly observed, “some people create greater value than others.” The sad truth is, that value is… in public life… too often measured in $$$. It’s unnecessarily, incorrectly, tragically a means of allocating comfort, sustenance, privilege, honor, and yes… entertainment to one person and not another.

No one ever created greater value than my grandma, or yours, I bet. My grandma wasn’t rich; just the sweetest soul I ever knew. She deserved head of the line privilege at WDW, if anyone ever did. Or should your grandmother get on Rise of the Resistance ahead of her?

The more our society - and the venues where we meet by the thousands - create and enforce class barriers, the more we are sorted from each other. Shame on Disney for doing that, for profit. You won’t see a WDW executive in a standby line beside you. That’s perverse.

 

[Chi84]

Thank you, really. And those thanks are not intended to be sarcastic. Your thoughtful reply clarified something for me: the core of what disappoints me about WDW today, and society in general.

That is, as you correctly observed, “some people create greater value than others.” The sad truth is, that value is… in public life… too often measured in $$$. It’s unnecessarily, incorrectly, tragically a means of allocating comfort, sustenance, privilege, honor, and yes… entertainment to one person and not another.

No one ever created greater value than my grandma, or yours, I bet. My grandma wasn’t rich; just the sweetest soul I ever knew. She deserved head of the line privilege at WDW, if anyone ever did. Or should your grandmother get on Rise of the Resistance ahead of her?

The more our society - and the venues where we meet by the thousands - create and enforce class barriers, the more we are sorted from each other. Shame on Disney for doing that, for profit. You won’t see a WDW executive in a standby line beside you. That’s perverse.

As a grandmother, I believe all grandmas should get on Rise of the Resistance first. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." That's definitely not our society, but it has been tried elsewhere.

 

[SteveAZee]

Thank you, really. And those thanks are not intended to be sarcastic. Your thoughtful reply clarified something for me: the core of what disappoints me about WDW today, and society in general.

That is, as you correctly observed, “some people create greater value than others.” The sad truth is, that value is… in public life… too often measured in $$$. It’s unnecessarily, incorrectly, tragically a means of allocating comfort, sustenance, privilege, honor, and yes… entertainment to one person and not another.

No one ever created greater value than my grandma, or yours, I bet. My grandma wasn’t rich; just the sweetest soul I ever knew. She deserved head of the line privilege at WDW, if anyone ever did. Or should your grandmother get on Rise of the Resistance ahead of her?

The more our society - and the venues where we meet by the thousands - create and enforce class barriers, the more we are sorted from each other. Shame on Disney for doing that, for profit. You won’t see a WDW executive in a standby line beside you. That’s perverse.

Yes, good points. Personally, I try to decouple wealth from personal value.

There's a tendency to respect or admire (or even listen to the opinion of) people who are rich or wealthy.

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

I think there are some things that we're supposed to have equality for (the justice system, access to fire and police protection, etc) and even there we struggle.

In a free market, for better or worse, some people create greater value than others... not me nor government or any thing other than the free market. Yes it can be warped and unfair at times, and it can even seem strange (celebrities and sports figures come to mind) but the system rewards those that provide a product or service really wanted and desired by others. It doesn't say anything about the quality or kindness or character of the person, just what skills/talents/training they've brought to the market and been rewarded for it.

One good way to please as many people in the free market as possible is to offer multiple price points for similar products... cheap, mid-range, and luxury cars. Services too... counter service, table service, fine dining. Disney is doing this too... providing goods and services at a variety of price points. In the parks they sell access to their rides with shorter lines for a price... and some people don't find it worth it and some do.

I'm sorry that it has caused you to find the parks no longer fun. Perhaps because you felt Disney had felt like an egalitarian bubble inside a free market economy... or if it wasn't, at least it was subtle. As prices have gone up and stratification along how much a guest pays has grown more and more pronounced, it can feel a bit like a caste system.

From my view, though, it's how one perceives it that makes the difference.

I agree with your premise for the most part. Let me premise my comments with the fact that I can comfortably afford the price increases and extras for cutting the line. It still feels inequitable tho. I personally am not one of those folks who feels if I give more green to Disney, that I should get an unfair advantage. I agree that offering different price points for similar products is a good and actually, essential part of the consumer product and entertainment industry for the exact reasons you state. The issue many are having with these recent changes is more about, today those of lesser means are paying considerably more than yesterday, and getting considerably less meaning they are literally paying much more to get through the gates, and are now waiting longer for the product, and due to the longer waits, getting less of the product for the higher prices.

As many have said, the better solution was for Disney to add more product first, and then add the pay for privilege to have to wait less. If there were more attractions to absorb the masses, even with skip-the-line systems, people would have a reasonable wait in the standby queue. The problem is that Disney is getting some people to pay considerably more to get just a little bit more product than they used to get, and those who don't pay get a lot less. I completely agree that this is ultimately on Disney being an incredibly greedy company in recent years. The only way that stops is if the masses don't flock to the parks, therefore making G+ less of a necessity, and then Disney's hand is forced to spend money on new attractions to get the crowds back. In that way, the unhappy guests are to blame for supporting a company whose product you're unhappy with. If they're not unhappy enough to no longer consume the product, then don't complain is my opinion. I haven't been back to the parks for many years for a multitude of reasons that I've been unhappy with the product. At least I'm backing up my talk with my wallet and spending those dollars elsewhere. I'm very lonely in that approach though.