A fix for Genie+

[Chi84]

The only way "we" can have an input is to stop paying for it. If EVERYBODY is in stand-by, and NOBODY is G+, then EVERYBODY gets in the same. The line moves.

If nobody was buying ILLs, they'd have to start letting people in for free.

Yeah but right now if I don’t buy it I’m the only one not buying it, everybody else is Genie+ and I’m in a standby line.

When you get everyone on the same page make sure to tell me so I’ll know I can get in free.

That’s the problem with saying to just not buy it. People who have already spent a ton of money and effort on a WDW trip are going to do what’s best for their vacation in the moment. They aren’t going to wait in long lines “on principle.”

 

[larryz]

When you get everyone on the same page make sure to tell me so I’ll know I can get in free.

Oh, you'll know. You'll get notices on the app advertising reduced rates for ILL rides... then "No Wait Now!" notices... then CMs will be out front rounding up riders.

 

[Chi84]

Oh, you'll know. You'll get notices on the app advertising reduced rates for ILL rides... then "No Wait Now!" notices... then CMs will be out front rounding up riders.

Sorry I edited my post before you replied to it. I don’t think people will stop buying Genie+. It’s far more likely (at least for me) that they will go elsewhere.

 

[esskay]

Whilst I'm strongly opposed to Genie+ on the principal of it formerly being free your idea does have merit. There's no need for it to be a paid item though.

Allow every guest to pick 5 'Must Do' attractions in the park. Have a two-tier system where they can pick two high-popularity attractions, and 3 standard (so for example at MK you might pick Splash + Buzz as your main, and Mansion, Philharmagic and Pirates as your ower tier.

The system gives you an automated probability scale for every ride in the park, which would obviously change automatically throughout the day depending on demand, but should be able to provide a reasonable estimation of:
A) If you're likely to get on the ride
B) The rough time you can expect to be allocated a slot

Theres zero reason why they cant do this as the datas all there, and it is absolutely a fully data driven process.

As part of it you can have live changes taken into account. Did Splash close for an hour due to a problem? The second its closed you ping everyone with a notification giving them an option to switch it out for something else.

But no it wont happen. Instead we'll get Magic Genie Lightning Pass Plus++ money Pro, now with more upcharges.

 

[drizgirl]

Whilst I'm strongly opposed to Genie+ on the principal of it formerly being free your idea does have merit. There's no need for it to be a paid item though.

Allow every guest to pick 5 'Must Do' attractions in the park. Have a two-tier system where they can pick two high-popularity attractions, and 3 standard (so for example at MK you might pick Splash + Buzz as your main, and Mansion, Philharmagic and Pirates as your ower tier.

The system gives you an automated probability scale for every ride in the park, which would obviously change automatically throughout the day depending on demand, but should be able to provide a reasonable estimation of:
A) If you're likely to get on the ride
B) The rough time you can expect to be allocated a slot

Theres zero reason why they cant do this as the datas all there, and it is absolutely a fully data driven process.

As part of it you can have live changes taken into account. Did Splash close for an hour due to a problem? The second its closed you ping everyone with a notification giving them an option to switch it out for something else.

But no it wont happen. Instead we'll get Magic Genie Lightning Pass Plus++ money Pro, now with more upcharges.

You are overestimating the average park guest in their ability and desire to understand a system like this.

 

[JIMINYCR]

I see the logic in that. And theme parks are businesses, so logic prevails… until it fails. If enough people get enough discomfort about paying to walk past people who won’t or can’t pay, then park management will stop the “pay for priority”.

Seems like “pay for priority” is deeply ingrained in our culture. I believe that makes us a less happy society. Even people who have more than others are less happy.

Would you cut in line ahead of your friend? Why is that stranger who doesn’t shell out money for Genie+ not your friend?

But those who can pay to get something better which happens everywhere you go. Pay for first class for a better seat, priority boarding and comfort on airlines. Pay for box seats or seasons tickets for a better view at ballgames. Pay for better front row seating at concerts and prime tiered seats for events. Pay for the better cabin on cruise lines for smoother sailing and more comfort.
Only now Disneys called greedy for doing the same. People cant stand it that someone who worked hard and was able to accomplish a higher standard of living wants to spend more to get what they cant afford when they are at the parks.
I know ... I'm envious for what I see others get that I cant have but I dont hate them for it or begrudge their ability to pass me by.

 

[Pepper's Ghost]

It reminds me of a sports franchise. And one that never goes the full mile to build a championship for their city. If the building is being sold out and merchandise is flying off the shelves why would they need to do more?

Exactly. I made this point a few times before. Look at the Cubs. 108 years of losing because people still showed up and advertising dollars came in. As long as people are paying, there's no reason to put more money into an inferior product. After Sammy Sosa left, attendance plummeted, and the Chicago Trib sold the team to a billionaire fan who bought a championship. They won a year ahead of schedule, the city was in a frenzy, and they let the team fall apart as the dump trucks full of money drove from Wrigley to the Ricketts' bank. If they weren't only interested in the profits, they'd have continued to improve the team for more rings before the championship window closed. They have zero desire to win again now since they're making a killing on advertising, etc. Once the crowds scatter, the advertising dollars will dry up, and the owners will be again motivated to improve the product. That's probably about a decade away tho.

The only way "we" can have an input is to stop paying for it. If EVERYBODY is in stand-by, and NOBODY is G+, then EVERYBODY gets in the same. The line moves.

If nobody was buying ILLs, they'd have to start letting people in for free.

My heart completely agrees with this, but my brain knows better. If G+ and ILL weren't being used as much, anyone who did use it would get a massive advantage to the rest of the crowd.

I know I'll get torched for the following paragraph, but it's just the truth...

The problem is that most people are inherently selfish. Very few people care about other people anymore. That's why people loved FP+ in the first place. I get mine quicker while you wait for yours a little longer... your problem. That's life in general. It's why I hated FP+. It's a Disney-approved cheater's line-skipping program and selfish people love it. You can't tell me that people who love FP+ aren't at all selfish. It's the epitome of selfishness. I get mine now, and I ignore the fact or don't give a sh** that you don't. Personally I don't mind waiting in line so long as everyone is because when there's no line-cutting, the standby queue moves pretty quick. It's why I always argue for getting rid of line-skipping systems with the exception of people who have a medical need and that it be strictly enforced. I find it absurd that Disney harshly deals with line-cutting, and then has a whole system designed for helping people line-cut. Not only that, but now they're getting paid for allowing line-cutting. Rewind 25 years ago and you're standing in a queue for a ride. A group of 20 people walk up to the CM at the front of the line and hands him $100 bill which the CM promptly accepts and let's those 20 people cut in front of the entire line after you've been waiting for 90 mins. I'm pretty sure that would at minimum get a CM screamed at by the crowd in the queue, and then fired. Now Disney makes money doing it.

Okay, I'll accept my flogging now for that opinion.

 

[Ayla]

Genie is not a "concierge" service. It lists available times for all attractions but does not make recommendations based on where you are.

It COULD act much more like a Guest Relations Host/Hostess, guiding you around the park based on your specified interests.

That is what Genie+ was initially advertised as. Not surprisingly, it has never worked.

 

[Chi84]

Exactly. I made this point a few times before. Look at the Cubs. 108 years of losing because people still showed up and advertising dollars came in. As long as people are paying, there's no reason to put more money into an inferior product. After Sammy Sosa left, attendance plummeted, and the Chicago Trib sold the team to a billionaire fan who bought a championship. They won a year ahead of schedule, the city was in a frenzy, and they let the team fall apart as the dump trucks full of money drove from Wrigley to the Ricketts' bank. If they weren't only interested in the profits, they'd have continued to improve the team for more rings before the championship window closed. They have zero desire to win again now since they're making a killing on advertising, etc. Once the crowds scatter, the advertising dollars will dry up, and the owners will be again motivated to improve the product. That's probably about a decade away tho.

My heart completely agrees with this, but my brain knows better. If G+ and ILL weren't being used as much, anyone who did use it would get a massive advantage to the rest of the crowd.

I know I'll get torched for the following paragraph, but it's just the truth...

The problem is that most people are inherently selfish. Very few people care about other people anymore. That's why people loved FP+ in the first place. I get mine quicker while you wait for yours a little longer... your problem. That's life in general. It's why I hated FP+. It's a Disney-approved cheater's line-skipping program and selfish people love it. You can't tell me that people who love FP+ aren't at all selfish. It's the epitome of selfishness. I get mine now, and I ignore the fact or don't give a sh** that you don't. Personally I don't mind waiting in line so long as everyone is because when there's no line-cutting, the standby queue moves pretty quick. It's why I always argue for getting rid of line-skipping systems with the exception of people who have a medical need and that it be strictly enforced. I find it absurd that Disney harshly deals with line-cutting, and then has a whole system designed for helping people line-cut. Not only that, but now they're getting paid for allowing line-cutting. Rewind 25 years ago and you're standing in a queue for a ride. A group of 20 people walk up to the CM at the front of the line and hands him $100 bill which the CM promptly accepts and let's those 20 people cut in front of the entire line after you've been waiting for 90 mins. I'm pretty sure that would at minimum get a CM screamed at by the crowd in the queue, and then fired. Now Disney makes money doing it.

Okay, I'll accept my flogging now for that opinion.

You’re right. I loved FP+ and really wish they had kept it. I would pay for it if they brought it back.

We’re talking about frivolous, discretionary spending at a ridiculously expensive vacation venue. I’ll try not to be too hard on myself.

 

[larryz]

But those who can pay to get something better which happens everywhere you go. Pay for first class for a better seat, priority boarding and comfort on airlines. Pay for box seats or seasons tickets for a better view at ballgames. Pay for better front row seating at concerts and prime tiered seats for events. Pay for the better cabin on cruise lines for smoother sailing and more comfort.
Only now Disneys called greedy for doing the same. People cant stand it that someone who worked hard and was able to accomplish a higher standard of living wants to spend more to get what they cant afford when they are at the parks.
I know ... I'm envious for what I see others get that I cant have but I dont hate them for it or begrudge their ability to pass me by.

Here's the problem with your analogy: everyone who gets on board that airplane gets to their destination airport at the same time. Everyone who watches the ballgame gets to see the whole game at the same time. Everyone on that cruise ship leaves Port Canaveral and arrives at Castaway Cay at the same time. You don't have the moneyed elite arriving earlier, while the riff-raff in the stand-by line has to wait to get to the airport/ballgame/island some several hours later. Maybe it's not as comfortable, or the best view, or quite as quiet or stable as the expensive seats/cabins, but everybody gets there together, getting the same value from the experience.

With Disney's (and other theme parks') "Time Advantage Payment" -- Genie+/ILL -- the moneyed elite are off on their second, third, sometimes fourth attraction while those who won't/can't pay extra are still waiting for their first ride. And that's the galling thing about it... those moneyed elite are paying extra to get expedited access to the same attractions the others thought they were going to get to see, but, without paying extra, might not get to see timely, or even (in some cases) at all.

So yeah, that's greedy, both by Disney AND those moneyed elite. Disney for offering more attractions for more money to the elite, and the elite for stealing time from everyone else.

 

[JIMINYCR]

Here's the problem with your analogy: everyone who gets on board that airplane gets to their destination airport at the same time. Everyone who watches the ballgame gets to see the whole game at the same time. Everyone on that cruise ship leaves Port Canaveral and arrives at Castaway Cay at the same time. You don't have the moneyed elite arriving earlier, while the riff-raff in the stand-by line has to wait to get to the airport/ballgame/island some several hours later. Maybe it's not as comfortable, or the best view, or quite as quiet or stable as the expensive seats/cabins, but everybody gets there together, getting the same value from the experience.

With Disney's (and other theme parks') "Time Advantage Payment" -- Genie+/ILL -- the moneyed elite are off on their second, third, sometimes fourth attraction while those who won't/can't pay extra are still waiting for their first ride. And that's the galling thing about it... those moneyed elite are paying extra to get expedited access to the same attractions the others thought they were going to get to see, but, without paying extra, might not get to see timely, or even (in some cases) at all.

So yeah, that's greedy, both by Disney AND those moneyed elite. Disney for offering more attractions for more money to the elite, and the elite for stealing time from everyone else.

It’s not about getting there at the same time. It’s about the level of experience you are paying for. Everyone is getting the same attraction and entertainment. No one who is paying for a box seat is stealing anything from someone in the bleachers. The same game is being watched. They are paying more for a higher level of experience while watching. Disney is offering more if you wish to pay for it. If you don’t pay for it that doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy the same attraction. You are only one waiting longer for doing it. Taking money isn’t greed if you are delivering a service someone agrees it would benefit them by paying more which isn’t stealing from anyone.

 

[Chi84]

Here's the problem with your analogy: everyone who gets on board that airplane gets to their destination airport at the same time. Everyone who watches the ballgame gets to see the whole game at the same time. Everyone on that cruise ship leaves Port Canaveral and arrives at Castaway Cay at the same time. You don't have the moneyed elite arriving earlier, while the riff-raff in the stand-by line has to wait to get to the airport/ballgame/island some several hours later. Maybe it's not as comfortable, or the best view, or quite as quiet or stable as the expensive seats/cabins, but everybody gets there together, getting the same value from the experience.

With Disney's (and other theme parks') "Time Advantage Payment" -- Genie+/ILL -- the moneyed elite are off on their second, third, sometimes fourth attraction while those who won't/can't pay extra are still waiting for their first ride. And that's the galling thing about it... those moneyed elite are paying extra to get expedited access to the same attractions the others thought they were going to get to see, but, without paying extra, might not get to see timely, or even (in some cases) at all.

So yeah, that's greedy, both by Disney AND those moneyed elite. Disney for offering more attractions for more money to the elite, and the elite for stealing time from everyone else.

The problem is that at Disney there’s very little difference between the “moneyed elite” and everyone else. It’s more a question of it not wanting to pay for it than not being able to afford it. That’s why Genie+ isn’t working. There are too many people buying it.

As far as your analogy, the people in the cheap seats will never get the same view as the ones in the front row. The people without Genie+ will get the exact same experience. They just have to wait longer.

 

[larryz]

The problem is that at Disney there’s very little difference between the “moneyed elite” and everyone else. It’s more a question of it not wanting to pay for it than not being able to afford it. That’s why Genie+ isn’t working. There are too many people buying it.

You're right in that people feel they have to pay the additional money if they want to get full value from the $130-$150 they've already spent.

But isn't that actually misleading, to set up a system where you subtly force people to pay more than they were told they'd have to? Like an undisclosed fee, or a hidden cost. Yes, it's completely voluntary. But you will not get the same experience you were led to expect if you don't pay it...

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

17-year cast member here… I’ve been fiercely disloyal to my former employer. I tell people not to go to Disney World because it isn’t fun anymore.
You spend too much time staring at your cell phone, competing to get in a line.
Then I got this idea. Of course Disney doesn’t accept ideas, so I’ll just quickly post it here.
Genie+ could be fixed so that it becomes a concierge service. In other words, you just tell it in advance which attractions you want to ride. It could have the necessary intelligence to serve up an attraction from your list… not too far from you… and available for a reservation.
That’s it: Make recommendations based on 1) what the guest wants to do, 2) where they are now, and 3) what’s available. It’s all data.
If a guest doesn’t want to be geolocated they can occasionally tell their cell phone “Here I am… I’m ready for another attraction.” Genie++ then serves up the most likely option from the list.

There isn’t enough capacity to handle crowds…it’s a numbers problem - not an IT one.

Blame Iger

 

[Chi84]

You're right in that people feel they have to pay the additional money if they want to get full value from the $130-$150 they've already spent.

But isn't that actually misleading, to set up a system where you subtly force people to pay more than they were told they'd have to? Like an undisclosed fee, or a hidden cost. Yes, it's completely voluntary. But you will not get the same experience you were led to expect if you don't pay it...

Disney doesn't have the right ride capacity or demographic to run a successful, paid line-skip program. They can't charge a ton of money for a handful of rides because people won't pay it. And if they charge a reasonable amount, everyone will pay it and the system won't work.

But (1) people don't want to stand in lines when they could be doing something else, (2) every major theme park has a line-skip system and (3) Disney doesn't want long lines because of (1) and (2). So for many years we had a free, unsuccessful line-skip system that worked very well for some but not others. Now we have a paid, unsuccessful line-skip system that doesn't seem to work for anyone (according to reported guest satisfactions surveys).

The one thing I'm sure we will never have is an all-standby system, no matter how "fair" some people think it is. Because, quite frankly, people don't want it.

 

[larryz]

It’s not about getting there at the same time. It’s about the level of experience you are paying for. Everyone is getting the same attraction and entertainment. No one who is paying for a box seat is stealing anything from someone in the bleachers. The same game is being watched. They are paying more for a higher level of experience while watching. Disney is offering more if you wish to pay for it. If you don’t pay for it that doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy the same attraction. You are only one waiting longer for doing it. Taking money isn’t greed if you are delivering a service someone agrees it would benefit them by paying more which isn’t stealing from anyone.

But at Disney, all they're paying extra for is time -- time they get back by making you wait longer for the attraction. Like you said, they don't get more attraction, they just get it quicker than you do.

Disney is stealing your time and selling it to other people.

 

[Jrb1979]

But at Disney, all they're paying extra for is time -- time they get back by making you wait longer for the attraction. Like you said, they don't get more attraction, they just get it quicker than you do.

Disney is stealing your time and selling it to other people.

All parks do it and I have no problem with it.

 

[esskay]

You are overestimating the average park guest in their ability and desire to understand a system like this.

I'm not sure that they need to understand it, it's obviously extremely technical under the hood but to the end user it's essentially what we already had with FastPass+ where you could pick a single 'high-tier' ride followed by 2 'standard-tier' rides. The only real visual difference to them would be that they can pick more, and will be allocated a time on the day (so basically like the Genie+ side of things in that respect).

The 'magic' behind the scenes wouldn't be visible to them, or anything they need to understand, all they need to know is that they book like they did with fastpass+, and will get a notification during the day to tell them their 1hr entry slot has opened.

 

[mysto]

But at Disney, all they're paying extra for is time -- time they get back by making you wait longer for the attraction. Like you said, they don't get more attraction, they just get it quicker than you do.

Disney is stealing your time and selling it to other people.

I'm not saying should/shouldn't or good/bad or right/wrong, but your description of what/how is accurate! Need to link this to the g+ forum.

 

[Chi84]

I'm not saying should/shouldn't or good/bad or right/wrong, but your description of what/how is accurate! Need to link this to the g+ forum.

I think people in the Genie+ forum already know how line-skip systems work. I'm not sure what good characterizing them as "stealing time" is going to do.

All major theme parks have line-skip systems - they all charge for them. Disney committed to such systems with a free one 20 years ago that worked well for some people but not everyone. Now they have a new, paid system that they are reportedly going to change soon.