3 Monorail Employees Suspended

[hpyhnt 1000]

I'm sorry, but wrong wrong wrong. There's no way an attentive Pilot can't tell which beam they're on. I've done many many switches myself, and if I was in the same situation, I'd know well before my train was even all the way over the switch, if not sooner! Even failing that, if you're paying attention to your surroundings as you're always supposed to, you should quickly realize that the beamway next to you is on the wrong side of your train! Nighttime isn't an excuse. There is plenty of lighting around the area, and Switch 9 is especially well-lit.
Also, if you think you're too tired and/or fatigued to drive safely, then you tell a coordinator that and they can find someone else. When I was being drive-trained, along with the standard driving priorities (drive the train, listen and talk on the radio, and listen and talk to your Guests, if I remember right), he drilled one more into me, relentlessly: PAY ATTENTION! It sure doesn't sound like this Pink driver was doing that.

I'm not calling you out personally, I just don't know what the deal is with these Pilots you've spoken to.

Thats what I was thinking. While the pilot in Pink certainly isn't responsible for the switch not working as it should, said pilot should have been paying attention enough to realize this. As you go through the switch, wouldn't common sense dictate you make sure you see a beam off to the right hand side of your train, confirming you're now off the Epcot line and on the spur line? Thats what I would have been doing... :shrug:

 

[Bluexiii]

From a railroaders' perspective.

I work for the BNSF railroad as a Control Operator. I'm looking at some of the items that have come up with, I'm surprised at a few things.

1. On the railroad, during a shove move, the conductor or switchman ride the point to be the engineer's eyes. Why isn't this practiced here? If there was someone "on the point watching the shove," he could've seen that the switch wasn't lined reversed (to move to the other track).

2. How fast does the operations allow for a monorail to move on a shove? On the railroad, a shove is only allowed to make at "restricted speed" (able to stop withing half of the distance of field of vision, i.e. able to stop in a quarter of mile when you can see for half a mile).

3. Is there some kind of dispatch center where the lines are monitored. As a Control Operator (similar to that of a Dispatcher), I know when a switch is lined normally or reversed (movement to another track). It is the duty of the Dispatcher/Operator to make sure the switch is locked at the remote location before giving permission to make shove over the switch (verified by individual riding the point of the shove move).

I'm not gonna comment on to much more, because I am completely out of the loop when it comes how the monorail is run. This is just my opinion.

Jay



MODERATORS: Please feel free to move this post to other threads as necessary. Thanks.

 

[luckyeye13]

If this is true (which some monorail pilots have indicated is not) than there needs to be in place a system that WILL inform the pilot of where they are at ALL times even when in override. A simple indicator to tell them whether they are still on Epcot or are on the switch, etc.

There actually already is a way to tell via the onboard computer. On the top-right of the screen, the beam on which a pilot is driving is clearly spelled out. So, for example, if the train is on the Epcot beam, the display will show "EPCOT". If the train is on the Express beam, "Express" will show up, and, likewise, "Resort" will show for the Resort beam. This is actually the way that the train keeps track of its location and plays the correct spiels. I don't remember what is shown for the spur beams, but that is also indicated. (I tried to find it in my photos that I took to prove that I drove all 12 of the trains, but I always took those on the main beams.) When you change beams, the text at the top changes and an entry is made into the log to show the switch.

You know I was thinking the same thing, have a light or something in between the beams that is like a turn signal, if you are on the epcot beam its left if you are on the switch beam its right, something like that could make all the difference in the world. I still think its weird that you have a safety system and you shut it down to switch tracks. Seems like someone needs to rewrite some code in MAPO to fix that problem. :sohappy:

The MAPO code cannot be rewriten because the MAPO system is totally inactive on the spur beams. As there are no MAPO transmitters on any of the switches or spur beams, the trains do not get a clear signal ahead and, thus, cannot be run without the MAPO override enabled.

 

[DisneyPirate85]

I may have missed this in the furry of posts but was Pink's Pilot alone in the cockpit? Could there have been a "distraction" on this pilots part? Passengers, cell phone?.....Have rode up front several times and more then 50% it seems the pilot overshot the landing and had to back up to off load and with out a doubt it was My childrens and I's fault for distracting the pilot not intentually just being curious with questions for the pilot. Once, the last time we rode up front, I thought the Pilot was rude as hell didn't even speak. NOW I feel like the ______ cause he was just being deligent and safe.
Makes me think now maybe the Pilot should stay Solo.....Shawn

 

[board57796]

No passengers are allowed in the entire train during a switch procedure. No cell phone or texting, because in this manuever you need both hands, one to press down the MAPO override on the left, upper portion of the console, and the right hand must be holding the MCU (throttle) in a certain position. This is called the "dead man", and stops the train if the MCU is released for more than three seconds. This is to prevent the train from continuing to move if the pilot becomes incapacitated for any reason. Although even if for some reason the train did continue on if the pilot were incapacitated, it would never hit another train, because the MAPO system would eventually stop it.

 

[AndrewRnR]

It just dawned on me - there's no such thing as "paid leave" for hourly workers. They're not getting paid if they're not on the clock (unless one or more of them were salary, which would surprise me).

So, this just really means "they weren't fired....yet".

Huh? Yes there is paid leave for hourly cast members. Most (not always but most) of the time people are put on paid leave when there is an investigation involved - innocent until proven guilty. And as the article says one of them is a manager so yes one of them is salary.

 

[Tom]

If this is true (which some monorail pilots have indicated is not) than there needs to be in place a system that WILL inform the pilot of where they are at ALL times even when in override. A simple indicator to tell them whether they are still on Epcot or are on the switch, etc.

It shocks me that they haven't had the signal system in place like railroads do. Sure, it would be awkward to mount them to the beam system and allow train clearance - and it may not look as magical - but railroad signals have been nearly foolproof for a LONG time. Heck, they use a block signal system on the WDWRR in the MK.

It really amazes me that using the override feature is SOP. Usually overrides are reserved for very rare circumstances. The fact that an override is SOP for switching tracks baffles me. Especially when it puts so many people at risk - as has been proven here.

FailSafe means just that. The entire system should fail to SAFE. That didn't happen. The system failed, and it continued to permit a disaster. There should be one or two more checks and balances in place (not human dependent) that shut the system down if it detects even the slightest anomoly.

For example, ToT halts if one elevator misses an inch of contact with the guide wire in the floor of the 5th dimension. Sure, it's an inconvenience for guests and CMs to reset the system every time it happens, but it's better than an elevator driving off the track or into an empty shaft.

I'm not at all assigning blame to any person or entity in this situation, but I think it's obvious that Disney needs to implement a much more sophisticated MAPO system for monorail track switching, regardless of the investigation outcome.

 

[Tom]

Huh? Yes there is paid leave for hourly cast members. Most (not always but most) of the time people are put on paid leave when there is an investigation involved - innocent until proven guilty. And as the article says one of them is a manager so yes one of them is salary.

I was just saying that "paid leave" is an odd way to refer to hourly workers, if that's what they were. If an hourly worker isn't turning in hours, they're not getting paid - regardless of whether they're being investigated or not.

Just commenting on the general use of the phrase - not passing judgment on these CMs. Out of context...I should have kept the comments in my head, where it was more entertaining :hammer:

 

[toystory 3]

When I read all of this it makes me so sad! I just pray that the family of everyone involved is able to make it through all of this......

 

[Mr.EPCOT]

It really amazes me that using the override feature is SOP. Usually overrides are reserved for very rare circumstances. The fact that an override is SOP for switching tracks baffles me. Especially when it puts so many people at risk - as has been proven here.

Excuse me, where have we gotten the idea that 'many people are at risk' here? The moving blocklight system has worked without a single incident for twenty years up until now. Using the override is designed into how the system works, not something that started being used as procedure as an afterthought. The system works exactly as it needs to, the only failing here is completely human. And I would like to point out that any possible incident on the Monorail is much better and much much much more unlikely than any of the thousands of different things that can go wrong out on the roads with the buses. They've had fatal accidents, you just don't here about them because they're not high-profile like the Monorail is.

 

[AndrewRnR]

I was just saying that "paid leave" is an odd way to refer to hourly workers, if that's what they were. If an hourly worker isn't turning in hours, they're not getting paid - regardless of whether they're being investigated or not.

Hourly workers can get paid without "turning in hours"... just look at medical leave (FMLA) and such. They get paid (through their vacation and sick time). When it comes to a paid leave I believe (I haven't read the contract recently so I may be slightly off) but the cast member will receive pay all the time they were scheduled while away (paid as if they worked the shift) less any overtime they were scheduled. They get paid just as if they clocked in and worked without "turning in hours."

 

[Tom]

...Using the override is designed into how the system works, not something that started being used as procedure as an afterthought. The system works exactly as it needs to, the only failing here is completely human.....

This response is not an argument, by any means. I will say that the two emboldened phrases above are exactly what I was saying.

An "override" was designed into the SOP. The very definition of an override is "To counteract the normal operation of (an automatic control)." If an override is normal operation, it should just become an operation, and not an "override". This may be semantics, but it does make a difference in how systems operate. A true override should not be written into standards....it's an override of standards, and should be used scarcely.

The system and SOP should be re-written so that there is a standard set of actions, checks, balances and movements - and they only have to be overridden if SOP absolutely cannot work in a specific situation.

If backing a train through a switch causes MAPO to go red, which is something the drivers will ignore because they "know what's going on" - that tells me that we need one more level of red...like....BLAZING RED, which would come on while the train/system is in MAPO Override and yet there is still a major warning to signal.

MEGA RED would tell the drivers, "Yeah, it's red because someone is backing up in front of me...ho hum. BUT WAIT! It's MEGA UBER RED which means something terrible is happening and I should stop where I am so as not to further along any risk that may be associated with me."

Also, the failure in this system was human. With the technologies we have today, human errors should almost be eliminated. The trains should know where they are at all times. The switches should know where they are. Control should know where everything is, and predict points of conflict - all by computer. If there is a possible conflict, it would take appropriate actions to prevent or correct.

As one who studied mechanical systems and processes, and learned how to improve mechanical processes, I see these high-risk points in the current system.

The "aint broke don't fix it" phrase does NOT apply here. I think we've been running for 38 years death-free on a system that has not been updated based on societal changes. With the apathetic generation (my generation, unfortunately) running everything now, we need to update systems to protect more and more from human error. We've been coasting along these last few years, and a doomed monorail was destined to trip on a hurdle sooner or later. It tripped last weekend, with terrible results. But hopefully enough results to get the system and SOP updated to 2009 standards, with less human interaction and more technology-based fail-safes.

 

[Tom]

Hourly workers can get paid without "turning in hours"... just look at medical leave (FMLA) and such. They get paid (through their vacation and sick time). When it comes to a paid leave I believe (I haven't read the contract recently so I may be slightly off) but the cast member will receive pay all the time they were scheduled while away (paid as if they worked the shift) less any overtime they were scheduled. They get paid just as if they clocked in and worked without "turning in hours."

Pssh, ok. Again, I was just mocking a mere semantic. Not trying to determine who should and should not receive pay. Just making a pointless joke - obviously

 

[fireworkz]

One question I have for current and past monorail pilots:
There was a post made by someone claiming to represent several former pilots on an Orlando TV News site. The post basically said one of the issues with the accident was how Pink's driver was in the "Forward" control and backing up to move on to the Express Line. The post seemed to claim pilots in the past were trained to perform switching by moving to the Rear controls when leaving the station, backing the train down the line past the switch, then moving the train forward onto the spur. This way the pilot has a full forward view while re-approaching TTC. Anyone know if this is true? Does sound like a safer way to handle the procedure.

 

[Brian_B]

This is BS suspended with pay, in other words a free vacation. A man was killed these people should have been fired.

I love how people choose to NOT READ THE ACTUAL ARTICLE, and instead post asinine things that sound like the utterances of the frightened villagers in "Frankenstein" and/or "Beauty and the Beast".

"I say we KILL the BEAST!" - Gaston

"Did IQs...drop sharply while I was away?" - Lt. Ellen Ripley, "Aliens"

 

[Tom]

One question I have for current and past monorail pilots:
There was a post made by someone claiming to represent several former pilots on an Orlando TV News site. The post basically said one of the issues with the accident was how Pink's driver was in the "Forward" control and backing up to move on to the Express Line. The post seemed to claim pilots in the past were trained to perform switching by moving to the Rear controls when leaving the station, backing the train down the line past the switch, then moving the train forward onto the spur. This way the pilot has a full forward view while re-approaching TTC. Anyone know if this is true? Does sound like a safer way to handle the procedure.

It's been discussed in this, and another thread. The reportings were that SOP used to dictate that pilots switch ends of their train at a platform so that their reversing time was minimal, so that they were driving forward to their final destinations.

Reports say that this standard was changed in the last few years - for no official reason, but for assumed reasons having to do with the length of "wasted" time spent flipping ends of the train, and in an effort to reduce inconveniences to guests.

Safety - Courtesy - Show - Efficiency: Safety comes first in WDW's own motto, far over efficiency. Time to get protocol back in line with the motto.

 

[luckyeye13]

I may have missed this in the furry of posts but was Pink's Pilot alone in the cockpit? Could there have been a "distraction" on this pilots part? Passengers, cell phone?.....Have rode up front several times and more then 50% it seems the pilot overshot the landing and had to back up to off load and with out a doubt it was My childrens and I's fault for distracting the pilot not intentually just being curious with questions for the pilot. Once, the last time we rode up front, I thought the Pilot was rude as hell didn't even speak. NOW I feel like the ______ cause he was just being deligent and safe.
Makes me think now maybe the Pilot should stay Solo.....Shawn

The overshoot is actually really common with or without Guests in the cab. Unlike most rail transit systems, where there may be as much as a 15-foot stopping margin, there is only a 3-inch margin for properly stopping the monorail train at WDW. (You can identify the stopping point by a reflector placed on a railing or, at stations with automated gates, on one of the gate consoles.) Stopping more than three inches away from that reflector on either side will require correcting the stop as the train doors and the automatic gates will not open. (The light on the side of the gate consoles will flash when a train enters the station and will become solid once the train is parked in the correct spot to allow the gates to open automatically. On the train's console, at least two of the three stopping indicators need to be lit for the train's doors to open.) On occasion, the train will have the proper stopping indicators for its doors to open, but the gates will fail to open automatically as the console light is still flashing. In that case, one of the loading CMs or the pilot, if he realized what happened, will run their hand along the inside of the gate to break the beam and get the gates to open.

During drive training, Monorail pilots are taught the importance of being able to multi-task, including driving safely, listening and responding to the radio, communicating with Guests in the train (when needed), and talking with the Guests in the cab. Sadly, there are some pilots who make it more than obvious that they do not enjoy the company of Guests in the cab, but there are many more pilots (myself included, back in the day) for whom talking to the Guests is a neat part of the job. The operating history of the WDW Monorail shows that it is possible to drive safely, even with Guests in the cab. There are times when cab riding is suspended, such as really bad weather or Grad Nites, to allow the pilot to concentrate, but it really isn't an issue the rest of the time.

 

[board57796]

The overshoot is actually really common with or without Guests in the cab. Unlike most rail transit systems, where there may be as much as a 15-foot stopping margin, there is only a 3-inch margin for properly stopping the monorail train at WDW. (You can identify the stopping point by a reflector placed on a railing or, at stations with automated gates, on one of the gate consoles.) Stopping more than three inches away from that reflector on either side will require correcting the stop as the train doors and the automatic gates will not open. (The light on the side of the gate consoles will flash when a train enters the station and will become solid once the train is parked in the correct spot to allow the gates to open automatically. On the train's console, at least two of the three stopping indicators need to be lit for the train's doors to open.) On occasion, the train will have the proper stopping indicators for its doors to open, but the gates will fail to open automatically as the console light is still flashing. In that case, one of the loading CMs or the pilot, if he realized what happened, will run their hand along the inside of the gate to break the beam and get the gates to open.

During drive training, Monorail pilots are taught the importance of being able to multi-task, including driving safely, listening and responding to the radio, communicating with Guests in the train (when needed), and talking with the Guests in the cab. Sadly, there are some pilots who make it more than obvious that they do not enjoy the company of Guests in the cab, but there are many more pilots (myself included, back in the day) for whom talking to the Guests is a neat part of the job. The operating history of the WDW Monorail shows that it is possible to drive safely, even with Guests in the cab. There are times when cab riding is suspended, such as really bad weather or Grad Nites, to allow the pilot to concentrate, but it really isn't an issue the rest of the time.

x1000, Thank you.

 

[Gorjus]

It just dawned on me - there's no such thing as "paid leave" for hourly workers. They're not getting paid if they're not on the clock (unless one or more of them were salary, which would surprise me).

So, this just really means "they weren't fired....yet".

Hourly workers can get paid without "turning in hours"... just look at medical leave (FMLA) and such. They get paid (through their vacation and sick time). When it comes to a paid leave I believe (I haven't read the contract recently so I may be slightly off) but the cast member will receive pay all the time they were scheduled while away (paid as if they worked the shift) less any overtime they were scheduled. They get paid just as if they clocked in and worked without "turning in hours."

I am an hourly worker without a contract who was put on paid leave pending an investigation. They take your ID, send you home, yes you get free days off, and in the end they pay you for your time, give you back your ID and put you back to work.

This is a GIGANTIC corporation. Accidents happen. This accident had tragic results, but accidents happen. It doesn't have to be anyone's fault. All of us have slacked a bit. This was a perfect storm of all the right people slacking at the exact same time. That doesn't mean anyone has to be fired. But maybe no one was slacking. Issues happen on a daily basis that make standard proceedures difficult. Shortcuts are taken ALL the time because they have to be. Communication of proceedures doesn't always happen. Again, any number of factors could have contributed to each of the three people making a mistake at the same time.

Austin isn't coming back whether we blame someone or not. The system went for 38 years without a death. Austin's death will bring about some changes that will be helpful to the system and make it even safer.

 

[sweetpee_1993]

I am an hourly worker without a contract who was put on paid leave pending an investigation. They take your ID, send you home, yes you get free days off, and in the end they pay you for your time, give you back your ID and put you back to work.

This is a GIGANTIC corporation. Accidents happen. This accident had tragic results, but accidents happen. It doesn't have to be anyone's fault. All of us have slacked a bit. This was a perfect storm of all the right people slacking at the exact same time. That doesn't mean anyone has to be fired. But maybe no one was slacking. Issues happen on a daily basis that make standard proceedures difficult. Shortcuts are taken ALL the time because they have to be. Communication of proceedures doesn't always happen. Again, any number of factors could have contributed to each of the three people making a mistake at the same time.

Austin isn't coming back whether we blame someone or not. The system went for 38 years without a death. Austin's death will bring about some changes that will be helpful to the system and make it even safer.

Thank you for your post, Gorjus. I've tried not to get too into this thread after the 1st page or so and have even switched to other websites while reading some of the responses because the finger-pointing is getting a bit crazy. Seems folks are trying, convicting, and sentencing the CMs all from info they've read on the internet most of which is speculation with a limited amount that has been confirmed. Wow. I'd hate to be in their families. Wow. :hammer: The details of what happened will come out in time. Like I've had to explain to my sons numerous times: there's 2 (or more) sides to every story and usually the truth falls somewhere in the middle. The only people who truly know what happened are the ones who were there. And like you said, no matter what the story is, no matter what happens from here, nothing will change the fact that Austin is gone and we can't bring him back.