Star Wars Ep. 9 Thread

[jt04]

I understand people's concern but am willing to wait until the trilogy is complete before judging.

The last thing that needs to happen is last minute changes beyond routine pick up scenes. I think that is what happened to the last two films.

I think JJ will easily surpass the doubters expectations.

 

[Mike S]

Listen...I totally get from a management standpoint that they needed to move away from the original trilogy.

But they forced it and that is a huge mistake.

So there’s a billion or so fans of the originals...and many waited for decades to live in that moment. Nostalgia is a huge part of any fan base. It is. And that won’t change.

So it was a delicate task...handled with meat hooks. Ford obviously wanted paid off...so he strong armed them to it. Hamill was completely rewritten to his public protest. And fisher just wasn’t up for it...as evidenced by the toxicology report.

It’s on Kennedy and Iger - for me. If you didn’t understand Star Wars - which they clearly don’t - you tread incredibly softly. They just don’t get it. Likely never will. The fans pay the price...and then they make the stockholders pay.

Are you blaming Iger and Kennedy for Carrie Fisher’s death...?

 

[Gomer]

Listen...I totally get from a management standpoint that they needed to move away from the original trilogy.

But they forced it and that is a huge mistake.

So there’s a billion or so fans of the originals...and many waited for decades to live in that moment. Nostalgia is a huge part of any fan base. It is. And that won’t change.

So it was a delicate task...handled with meat hooks. Ford obviously wanted paid off...so he strong armed them to it. Hamill was completely rewritten to his public protest. And fisher just wasn’t up for it...as evidenced by the toxicology report.

It’s on Kennedy and Iger - for me. If you didn’t understand Star Wars - which they clearly don’t - you tread incredibly softly. They just don’t get it. Likely never will. The fans pay the price...and then they make the stockholders pay.

Honest question. When it comes to big budget blockbusters do you think the priority should be to serve audience expectations or the artist?

What you say makes sense if the only goal of making a movie is to service fan expectations. If that were the sole driver, then they should have made their big reunion special, made all the fans pump their fists in the air, and then retire the franchise.

From my point of view, you make a movie artistry first and hope that the audience follows. It won't always and sometimes it will be divisive as this movie obviously has been for some fans. But if you remove that as your priority you end up with superficial fluff only intended to make a temporary splash but with very little staying power.

TLJ may not have worked for some, but there is no denying that the #1 priority of LF was NOT to just make everyone happy. They had a story to tell and they told it. To me, even if its bad, that is still much more worthy of my viewing time than most of the disposable fluff that comes out of Hollywood these days.

 

[Mike S]

Honest question. When it comes to big budget blockbusters do you think the priority should be to serve audience expectations or the artist?

What you say makes sense if the only goal of making a movie is to service fan expectations. If that were the sole driver, then they should have made their big reunion special, made all the fans pump their fists in the air, and then retire the franchise.

From my point of view, you make a movie artistry first and hope that the audience follows. It won't always and sometimes it will be divisive as this movie obviously has been for some fans. But if you remove that as your priority you end up with superficial fluff only intended to make a temporary splash but with very little staying power.

TLJ may not have worked for some, but there is no denying that the #1 priority of LF was NOT to just make everyone happy. They had a story to tell and they told it. To me, even if its bad, that is still much more worthy of my viewing time than most of the disposable fluff that comes out of Hollywood these days.

Marvel had a story to tell as well with not anywhere close to the same backlash. Then again, that backlash is exactly what Rian wanted.

And now he and LucasFilm want to play victims after poking a hornets nest, lol.

 

[Gomer]

Marvel had a story to tell as well with not anywhere close to the same backlash. Then again, that backlash is exactly what Rian wanted.

Because Marvel made the exact movie their fans wanted.

I'm a fan of the MCU. have seen all of the movies in their initial release. But in the end, I don't think Endgame will be remembered the same way the original trilogy is. It will be notable for their extreme success as a franchise. But on a cinematic level, I don't think people will be looking back on the last couple avengers movies as cinematic masterpieces. More of a cultural event.

Which speaks to my point. I'm not saying one is necessarily better than the other. But its two different methods of studio output. You make something to cater to a specific audience. Or you make something that caters to the artist and hope that it finds an audience.

I can enjoy both, but I respect the latter more.

 

[Gomer]

Marvel had a story to tell as well with not anywhere close to the same backlash. Then again, that backlash is exactly what Rian wanted.

And now he and LucasFilm want to play victims after poking a hornets nest, lol.

Just to add, I agree with everything Rian says there. A easily palatable movie can be good. But for the most part, great movies are divisive. It's hard to be great if you aren't challenging your audience in some way.

 

[Mike S]

Because Marvel made the exact movie their fans wanted.

I'm a fan of the MCU. have seen all of the movies in their initial release. But in the end, I don't think Endgame will be remembered the same way the original trilogy is. It will be notable for their extreme success as a franchise. But on a cinematic level, I don't think people will be looking back on the last couple avengers movies as cinematic masterpieces. More of a cultural event.

Which speaks to my point. I'm not saying one is necessarily better than the other. But its two different methods of studio output. You make something to cater to a specific audience. Or you make something that caters to the artist and hope that it finds an audience.

I can enjoy both, but I respect the latter more.

I think you’re underestimating IW and Endgame here.

Just to add, I agree with everything Rian says there. A easily palatable movie can be good. But for the most part, great movies are divisive. It's hard to be great if you aren't challenging your audience in some way.

Great movies can be easily palatable without being hugely divisive like TLJ. Just look at a list of the best movies and a lot of them most would agree on.

 

[Gomer]

I think you’re underestimating IW and Endgame here.

Only time will tell on that. So there's not really any way to know. They are great fun, and everything the MCU has accomplished has been remarkable. And I think they will continue to have their fans. But when AFI releases their top 100 movies of the 21st century in 80 years or so, i just don't see them making the cut the way Star Wars did for the 20th.

Great movies can be easily palatable without being hugely divisive like TLJ. Just look at a list of the best movies and a lot of them most would agree on.

I'll rework my statement to make what I'm trying to say a bit more clear.

It's not that a great movie can't be palatable. It is that if you go in with that aim, you are unlikely to make a great movie. Most great movies that are palatable to most, weren't made with that aim in mind, but were made to tell a story that the director and writer wanted to tell from an artistic standpoint, and that happened to also end up being something the audience found appealing.

Look at a movie like Casablanca. Widely considered one of the great films. Holds up wonderfully even to modern audiences. But it is also unrepentant in its portrayal of both its main character and its not quite happy ending. If they had gone into that movie, trying to make sure no one would be upset, Rick wouldn't have been a nasty drunk and he would have gotten on the plane with Ilsa.

But because it is true to its story, it is more memorable and that is why it wasn't forgotten like any other number of early cinema melodramas.

Challenging an audience, doesn't mean it has to work. Doesn't mean it has to be great. But if you don't do it at all, your movie will likely be forgotten in 10 years.

So I'm not saying that you have to like TLJ because it tries to challenge of preconceived notions of what should have happened after RotJ. The nature of the story is risky and is why it is so divisive. And yes, there could have been a story that would have challenged and pleased everyone. But you can't aim for that going in. You can only aim to make the best story and hope that it resonates with the audience.

TLJ did resonate with me and is one of my favorite movies. It didn't with alot of people. But I'd much rather have had our roles reversed and hated the movie while others loved it than have gotten 3 bland TFA's that aim to do nothing but give us all exactly what we want.

I'd rather hate a SW movie that tries to do something interesting, than have it feel like it was drawn up by focus group.

 

[drod1985]

I think you’re underestimating IW and Endgame here.

Only time will tell on that. So there's not really any way to know. They are great fun, and everything the MCU has accomplished has been remarkable. And I think they will continue to have their fans. But when AFI releases their top 100 movies of the 21st century in 80 years or so, i just don't see them making the cut the way Star Wars did for the 20th.

I know this is the Star Wars thread, so I'll bring this back around in a moment...

But Mike is right, you're absolutely underestimating Endgame and the MCU in general. A $357m domestic ($1.2bn World Wide) opening weekend doesn't happen just because something is great fun, it happens because its a cultural movement of characters that have resonated with the greater audience. It's not like Avatar where the technical components of the film were the primary draw, it's the characters and stories of the MCU that elevated Endgame to the level where it obliterated the previous opening weekend records by these factors. For reference, Endgame's opening weekend made 1.39x the previous domestic record and 1.91x the previous worldwide record. That's unprecedented growth and performance. On top of that the films are praised nearly universally by both fans and critics. They are tremendous successes that will absolute have a place in cinematic history for decades to come.

And to bring it back on topic - Star Wars is the closest equivalent to the MCU juggernaut. But as others have pointed out they are fundamentally different in how the material is sourced and how the story telling can be formatted. There is plenty of room for comparison, but they really are different animals.

What Marvel does prove is that you can tell an exciting, engaging story that subverts (appropriate) expectations without being decisive. But The Empire Strikes Back had already proved that way back in 1980. Now Lucasfilm has to refind their footing and attune themselves to what they can afford to subvert or challenge vs. what they need to just go ahead and give the general fanbase. That's the balance Marvel has struck that Lucasfilm hasn't yet.

 

[erasure fan1]

Honest question. When it comes to big budget blockbusters do you think the priority should be to serve audience expectations or the artist?

What you say makes sense if the only goal of making a movie is to service fan expectations

I've never thought of "fan service" as a bad thing, and when you have a franchise like star wars or marvel/DC... it should be expected. That doesn't mean you can't do new things but to completely disregard fan expectations is not going to land well. It's a fine balance but Disney has studios across the hall doing it the right way. So really the answer to your question is, both. Marvel has done this extraordinarily well. Guardians is a James Gunn film but still fits everything the MCU was doing.

 

[Mike S]

Only time will tell on that. So there's not really any way to know. They are great fun, and everything the MCU has accomplished has been remarkable. And I think they will continue to have their fans. But when AFI releases their top 100 movies of the 21st century in 80 years or so, i just don't see them making the cut the way Star Wars did for the 20th.


I'll rework my statement to make what I'm trying to say a bit more clear.

It's not that a great movie can't be palatable. It is that if you go in with that aim, you are unlikely to make a great movie. Most great movies that are palatable to most, weren't made with that aim in mind, but were made to tell a story that the director and writer wanted to tell from an artistic standpoint, and that happened to also end up being something the audience found appealing.

Look at a movie like Casablanca. Widely considered one of the great films. Holds up wonderfully even to modern audiences. But it is also unrepentant in its portrayal of both its main character and its not quite happy ending. If they had gone into that movie, trying to make sure no one would be upset, Rick wouldn't have been a nasty drunk and he would have gotten on the plane with Ilsa.

But because it is true to its story, it is more memorable and that is why it wasn't forgotten like any other number of early cinema melodramas.

Challenging an audience, doesn't mean it has to work. Doesn't mean it has to be great. But if you don't do it at all, your movie will likely be forgotten in 10 years.

So I'm not saying that you have to like TLJ because it tries to challenge of preconceived notions of what should have happened after RotJ. The nature of the story is risky and is why it is so divisive. And yes, there could have been a story that would have challenged and pleased everyone. But you can't aim for that going in. You can only aim to make the best story and hope that it resonates with the audience.

TLJ did resonate with me and is one of my favorite movies. It didn't with alot of people. But I'd much rather have had our roles reversed and hated the movie while others loved it than have gotten 3 bland TFA's that aim to do nothing but give us all exactly what we want.

I'd rather hate a SW movie that tries to do something interesting, than have it feel like it was drawn up by focus group.

Believe me the last thing I wanted was 3 bland movies that were empty fan service. In the end I think we agree on everything except our opinion on this movie. There is a delicate balance to be had when making movies like this where you shouldn’t swing too far in either direction. Btw I did watch Casablanca once when it was on TCM and quite enjoyed it. I should watch it again at some point to have more of a fresh opinion.

Another thing I’ll say though is that any chance for respect I could’ve had for them taking a risk on TLJ went out the window when their official responses to the backlash started coming out. They acted just as childish as the worst haters they were complaining about.

 

[Gomer]

I know this is the Star Wars thread, so I'll bring this back around in a moment...

But Mike is right, you're absolutely underestimating Endgame and the MCU in general. A $357m domestic ($1.2bn World Wide) opening weekend doesn't happen just because something is great fun, it happens because its a cultural movement of characters that have resonated with the greater audience. It's not like Avatar where the technical components of the film were the primary draw, it's the characters and stories of the MCU that elevated Endgame to the level where it obliterated the previous opening weekend records by these factors. For reference, Endgame's opening weekend made 1.39x the previous domestic record and 1.91x the previous worldwide record. That's unprecedented growth and performance. On top of that the films are praised nearly universally by both fans and critics. They are tremendous successes that will absolute have a place in cinematic history for decades to come.

And to bring it back on topic - Star Wars is the closest equivalent to the MCU juggernaut. But as others have pointed out they are fundamentally different in how the material is sourced and how the story telling can be formatted. There is plenty of room for comparison, but they really are different animals.

What Marvel does prove is that you can tell an exciting, engaging story that subverts (appropriate) expectations without being decisive. But The Empire Strikes Back had already proved that way back in 1980. Now Lucasfilm has to refind their footing and attune themselves to what they can afford to subvert or challenge vs. what they need to just go ahead and give the general fanbase. That's the balance Marvel has struck that Lucasfilm hasn't yet.

You are correct, as this isn't a marvel thread I won't go in to deep here. I put the Marvel franchise in a similar vein as the Bond Franchise (much bigger from a performance standpoint obviously). It's a large string of movies that has immense cultural relevence for the time of their peak popularity and will be remembed as such. But from a quality standpoing they range from very good to not all that great and will be remembered more as an overall acheivement rather than individual films.

And you are correct, it is a different animal than Star Wars. Which is why I go in with different expectations from the two. Marvel is famously built studio down. It is the secret sauce for them. A homogeneous mesh of mainlined popcorn fun. Some of the better ones exceed that mandate and find away to be unique and memorable on their own. Some embrace that and become sort of the ideal of that method. And others suffer under the weight of it.

With Star Wars, and maybe I am biased here as it has been a fan obsession of mine since my first theater experience at the original release of ESB) there has always been more to it than that. It was Lucas's artistic vision. It was at most times trying to hit you with the interesting an enexepected. Sometimes those subversions of expectations failed with many (TPM) and other times they created Iconic moments unrivaled in cinematic history(ESB).

That's why I am against fan service in Star Wars. Because when we have gotten fan service (RotS/Solo) it usually ends up being bland and feeling like its just a notch shy of what I expect from a Star Wars movie.

Now, from a business standpoing, you may be right. Maybe they should be trying to give us what they think the fans want. But this fan doesn't want that. But like I've said here before, if they go that route, that's their perogative. I'll move on and continue to enjoy my favorites and not begrudge that others are getting exactly what they want. I just wish others could do the same.

 

[Gomer]

Believe me the last thing I wanted was 3 bland movies that were empty fan service. In the end I think we agree on everything except our opinion on this movie. There is a delicate balance to be had when making movies like this where you shouldn’t swing too far in either direction. Btw I did watch Casablanca once when it was on TCM and quite enjoyed it. I should watch it again at some point to have more of a fresh opinion.

Another thing I’ll say though is that any chance for respect I could’ve had for them taking a risk on TLJ went out the window when their official responses to the backlash started coming out. They acted just as childish as the worst haters they were complaining about.

I agree completely with your first paragraph. And to me, there is nothing wrong with having differing opinions on the quality of the film. We are both entitled to that.

As to the reaction. I think there is bit of defensiveness on both sides there. Some of the studio responses were too defensive. And some of the fans assume any criticism aimed at a certain subset of fans must then apply to them as well.

Although I may be biased here as well. Working for a site that deals in SW news and rumors, the beat down Rian gave to Mike Zeroh was long overdue and quite hilarious to me. Pablo is apablo. He has every right to argue with people if he wants. And others like Wendig don't really speak for the company, just happen to be associated with them. Not sure if I missed any others you might have referring to.

 

[Gomer]

I've never thought of "fan service" as a bad thing, and when you have a franchise like star wars or marvel/DC... it should be expected. That doesn't mean you can't do new things but to completely disregard fan expectations is not going to land well. It's a fine balance but Disney has studios across the hall doing it the right way. So really the answer to your question is, both. Marvel has done this extraordinarily well. Guardians is a James Gunn film but still fits everything the MCU was doing.

I personally think expectations of fan service is in danger of ruining this form of entertainment. Whether its TLJ, or game of thrones, the Snyder cut, or race/gender swapping characters, or whatever the latest outrage is. The sense of ownership among fans over the last 20 years or so has moved from endearing to entitlement. If we get all the creators to bow to our wishes, we'll cease to have any surprising or great content from mainstream Hollywood.

Movies are the great entertainment vehicle that they are because for 100 years people gave us things we didn't even know we wanted. If we dictate what we want at all times, it starts to feel hollow.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Are you blaming Iger and Kennedy for Carrie Fisher’s death...?

No...

But I think they are borderline malfeasant in hiring her. She couldn’t do it. Abrams sits here and says “we couldn’t tell the story without her”

1. You’ve proven there really is no story
2. She couldn’t even read her lines. Nobody in a trillion dollar company noticed this on the first dailies? Or in talking to her in like 2013??

That wasn’t the same person...she couldn’t do any of the things that made her an iconic character in the first place. It’s not just about age...the spunk and the wit and the presence was long gone.

Too much “living”

I get she’s Hollywood royalty and I have tremendous respect for her speaking on difficult subjects for decades...but that doesn’t mean you mold movies around her.

It’s been horrible. And now we have cutting room stuff with less life than peter Cushing?

That’s such a failure...my take

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Good discussion...by the way.

 

[Gomer]

No...

But I think they are borderline malfeasant in hiring her. She couldn’t do it. Abrams sits here and says “we couldn’t tell the story without her”

1. You’ve proven there really is no story
2. She couldn’t even read her lines. Nobody in a trillion dollar company noticed this on the first dailies? Or in talking to her in like 2013??

That wasn’t the same person...she couldn’t do any of the things that made her an iconic character in the first place. It’s not just about age...the spunk and the wit and the presence was long gone.

Too much “living”

I get she’s Hollywood royalty and I have tremendous respect for her speaking on difficult subjects for decades...but that doesn’t mean you mold movies around her.

It’s been horrible. And now we have cutting room stuff with less life than peter Cushing?

That’s such a failure...my take

I actually thought she did a pretty good job in TLJ. But TFA was rough. It was hard to watch her.

But can you imagine what kind of outcry from fans there would have been if they left her out. People are still screaming a year and a half later about perceived changes to Luke's character and a lack of any scene with all 3. It was lose/lose with Carrie. If you have her, it exposes her lack of ability to retain that spark of Leia from her youth. if you cut her, you have a riot for evil Disney not letting Carrie come back. Ageism! Sexism! You hate the OT fans! and what not...

 

[tk924]

Nostalgia is a huge part of any fan base. It is. And that won’t change.

This is so true. SW toy sales reflect this as well. I've been collecting some of the Vintage Collection action figures and let me say first hand that what sells is the Vintage style card backs of PT and OT figures. I can go right now to any retail store and find Reys, Holdos and even TLJ Luke figures hanging on pegs. Try to find an OT/PT figure at retail. Very hard. Almost all of my acquisitions have been online. Here's a short article that speaks to this.
They're even re-releasing vintage SW 5POA action figures on vintage card backs! Why? Because that's what the fans want. And they're buying it up!
I wish the higher ups at Disney/LFL would take notice at what the guys at Hasbro are doing, but they won't. They're going to continue down this path and blame it's unnecessary failure on the fans. You see, they have nothing to 'hook' a new generation with. Today's kids will forget and move on from the ST. I believe this. Oh, they might get a few more years out of it with Galaxy's Edge and maybe with SW on Disney+ but, to me, the candle seems awfully close to the end of it's wick.
I'll never walk away from SW because of the ST. I will always cherish the PT, Clone Wars, RO and, of course, the OT.

 

[Mike S]

I agree completely with your first paragraph. And to me, there is nothing wrong with having differing opinions on the quality of the film. We are both entitled to that.

As to the reaction. I think there is bit of defensiveness on both sides there. Some of the studio responses were too defensive. And some of the fans assume any criticism aimed at a certain subset of fans must then apply to them as well.

Although I may be biased here as well. Working for a site that deals in SW news and rumors, the beat down Rian gave to Mike Zeroh was long overdue and quite hilarious to me. Pablo is apablo. He has every right to argue with people if he wants. And others like Wendig don't really speak for the company, just happen to be associated with them. Not sure if I missed any others you might have referring to.

One that I saw was a guy who just did voice work on one of the shows. The big thing though is that never once did Disney condemn the attacks on fans. Personally I don’t think anyone working for LucasFilm should project a condescending attitude publicly. Your actions will still reflect on the company if you’re making it well known that you work for or with them.

I personally think expectations of fan service is in danger of ruining this form of entertainment. Whether its TLJ, or game of thrones, the Snyder cut, or race/gender swapping characters, or whatever the latest outrage is. The sense of ownership among fans over the last 20 years or so has moved from endearing to entitlement. If we get all the creators to bow to our wishes, we'll cease to have any surprising or great content from mainstream Hollywood.

Movies are the great entertainment vehicle that they are because for 100 years people gave us things we didn't even know we wanted. If we dictate what we want at all times, it starts to feel hollow.

Throwing fans a bone after they gave you so much success isn’t a bad thing. They scratched your back, now scratch theirs and the cycle of success continues.

Again though, it doesn’t mean you can’t be artistic. Both can coexist. You just need the right balance. A reunion scene wouldn’t have harmed any artistry. Neither would have doing more with Luke.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I actually thought she did a pretty good job in TLJ. But TFA was rough. It was hard to watch her.

But can you imagine what kind of outcry from fans there would have been if they left her out. People are still screaming a year and a half later about perceived changes to Luke's character and a lack of any scene with all 3. It was lose/lose with Carrie. If you have her, it exposes her lack of ability to retain that spark of Leia from her youth. if you cut her, you have a riot for evil Disney not letting Carrie come back. Ageism! Sexism! You hate the OT fans! and what not...

All of those things are what they are...I can’t dispute you.

She was still awful.

Because someone was a character once doesn’t mean you can always go back.
More painful to watch than a Katherine Heigl RomCom


Ok...so I did some research. Here is a clip from 2000...which would have been the right time: