MK Cars-Themed Attractions at Magic Kingdom

[Stripes]

Millennials? Maybe I’m getting my age groups mixed up but based on the year cars came out it seems this would be more geared to people my age.

Late millennial/early Gen Z. The people that are having kids right now.

 

[marni1971]

From Bill Zanetti (Professor at the University of Central Florida):

I have edited some of Bill’s posts for clarity.

“Keeping the rivers open as is would eventually flood the utilidoors. Something has to be done. Major riverbed maintenance, maybe even full replacement, is required. So all the company is doing here is trying to solve some ops issues and get a good ROI.”

“There’s too much potential for overflow in addition to some issues in the actual retaining walls that need replacing and asbestos removal. Happy to go into it more but it was explained to me by an urban planner / industrial engineer so it gets detailed.”

“The utilidoors literally are up against the retaining wall in Frontierland and they’re littered with asbestos. It’s a huge deal.”

“I don’t have a duck in this fight. I’m just telling you what I’ve been told by some EXTREMELY high up people within the company. You are acting like I’m some kind of corporate shill. If you can’t take my word for it, then you’ll have to go talk to someone at CFTOD that has been in water management for at least 15 years. They’ll confirm that WDW’s flood control systems have been pushed to their limits for a very long time now and major changes have been implemented to deal with a lot of development around property. I don’t know how detailed they’ll be about the RoA, but I’m sure they will talk about it at least a little and explain to you that ANY major bodies of water create issues in that area. The utilidoors are at risk and this project with the new proposed drainage systems and retention ponds would partially alleviate some of that risk.

I will also tell you that the powers at be didn’t take removing the RoA lightly. They brainstormed multiple solutions that didn’t go as far and this is the one that made the most economic sense. There are plenty of other ways to fix the problems at hand… but no one wants to spend that much to fix it. We’re talking almost a billion dollars here. Try to convince any company to spend that much on something without any visible ROI. Good luck!”

And someone I know says this is incorrect.

 

[Stripes]

And someone I know says this is incorrect.

Can you be more specific?

 

[marni1971]

Not trying to be snarky but look at the comments on literally any social media post for literally any company. Always so much negativity. It doesn’t help that Disney became a politicized target.

Social Media is not a reflection of actual thought on the individual level.

This one is taking much more flack than what’s become the norm. Like I said to the OP I quoted it’s not just 10-15 people on this site.

 

[marni1971]

Can you be more specific?

View attachment 847887

 

[Stripes]

View attachment 847887

Someone posted this exact map. This is what he had to say.

“No, you don’t get it. The utilidoors literally are up against the retaining wall in Frontierland (there’s a small extension that is not shown on your not completely accurate maps) and they’re littered with asbestos. It’s a huge deal. You can either believe me or be wrong.”

He’s a professor at the University of Central Florida, and specifically teaches about theme parks. He also worked for Disney for 10 years. He’s also the executive producer of Defunctland, FWIW.

 

[marni1971]

Someone posted this exact map. This is what he had to say.

“No, you don’t get it. The utilidoors literally are up against the retaining wall in Frontierland (there’s a small extension that is not shown on your not completely accurate maps) and they’re littered with asbestos. It’s a huge deal. You can either believe me or be wrong.”

He’s a professor at the University of Central Florida, and specifically teaches about theme parks. He also worked for Disney for 10 years. He’s also the executive producer of Defunctland, FWIW.

Yes, I know the person you’re talking about.

Like I said, I’m told he’s misinformed.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

From Bill Zanetti (Professor at the University of Central Florida):

So we are trusting a “theme park guru and professor” over actual imagineers?

 

[Stripes]

So we are trusting a “theme park guru and professor” over actual imagineers?

“Actual Imagineers” who haven’t worked at the company in years, haven’t studied the issues, and none of whom are engineers, as opposed to an incredibly well-connected person with relationships throughout the industry who has had discussions with the actual engineers working on the project.

 

[Casper Gutman]

“Actual Imagineers” who haven’t worked at the company in years, haven’t studied the issues, and none of whom are engineers, as opposed to an incredibly well-connected person with relationships throughout the industry who has had discussions with the actual engineers working on the project.

And is heavily motivated to maintain access and stay in the good graces of his Disney “connections”…

 

[Casper Gutman]

Quickly glancing at Zanetti’s Twitter feed, this strange post popped out: “Everyone commenting on this Rivers of America land replacement project needs to watch Planes Fire & Rescue before commenting on the replacement land any further. I’m not saying it’s a really great film, but it explains the world in which this replacement is based. Don’t knock the new theme until you understand it. You can knock the ride system if you believe it will be high maintenance. You can knock WDI in Glendale for not making everyone spend an entire summer in the Orlando Swampidity so they can design for the right climate. You can still miss the Rivers of America because I think it’s sad for the Magic Kingdom to have a loss of yet another navigable river system (Swan Boats anyone?). But don’t knock the location of the new theme. Anything resembling Yellowstone National Park would be a welcome addition to the Magic Kingdom. Let’s restore Wilderness Lodge to its former glory while we’re at it.”

I don’t think anyone is particularly confused by the idea of “Yellowstone but Cars” and the fact that the concept appeared in a profoundly underwhelming film doesn’t mean the theme fits the location. Further, “anything resembling Yellowstone would be a welcome addition to the Magic Kingdom?” The Taj Mahal is a very pretty building, but it doesn’t belong on Main Street.

And WDI doesn’t understand Orlando’s climate?

Perhaps the RoA is about to turn the Utilidoors into the Poseidon Adventure… but this all sounds a lot like the Horizons sinkhole or the unmovable Yeti.

 

[Orange is the new Red]

It’s high risk. You’re messing with an integral part of your flagship park. The Golden Goose. Just saying it’s interesting that they can continuously lose 250 billion plus on movies that had no business being greenlit but they can’t spend a half billion for something like this?

Disney had 3 movies that had a combined revenue of over 4B. They were the top movie house in 24. It is fair to say Mufasa under performed but it did still make 700M. Disney owned the box office last year!

 

[bcoachable]

I’m sure engineers on the project have it all figured out- but where will the “daily 3:00pm rain run off” drain to once the ROA are replaced with this kiddie car ride? (Or has this already been discussed)

 

[Sir_Cliff]

Disney seems to be unable to build so much as a carousel for under $100 million these days, but almost $1 billion just to fix issues with the Rivers of America sounds on the face of it to be rather high. Maybe it appears a more reasonable estimate to people who know more about how much these things cost, however that sounds like the kind of number that people throw around to kill an option that in reality includes a lot of other things that will either have to be done anyway or are not necessary for that project.

I mean, who knows, maybe the engineering of that river and the utilidoors is far more complicated than most of us realised

 

[lazyboy97o]

From Bill Zanetti (Professor at the University of Central Florida):

I have edited some of Bill’s posts for clarity.

“Keeping the rivers open as is would eventually flood the utilidoors. Something has to be done. Major riverbed maintenance, maybe even full replacement, is required. So all the company is doing here is trying to solve some ops issues and get a good ROI.”

“There’s too much potential for overflow in addition to some issues in the actual retaining walls that need replacing and asbestos removal. Happy to go into it more but it was explained to me by an urban planner / industrial engineer so it gets detailed.”

“The utilidoors literally are up against the retaining wall in Frontierland and they’re littered with asbestos. It’s a huge deal.”

“I don’t have a duck in this fight. I’m just telling you what I’ve been told by some EXTREMELY high up people within the company. You are acting like I’m some kind of corporate shill. If you can’t take my word for it, then you’ll have to go talk to someone at CFTOD that has been in water management for at least 15 years. They’ll confirm that WDW’s flood control systems have been pushed to their limits for a very long time now and major changes have been implemented to deal with a lot of development around property. I don’t know how detailed they’ll be about the RoA, but I’m sure they will talk about it at least a little and explain to you that ANY major bodies of water create issues in that area. The utilidoors are at risk and this project with the new proposed drainage systems and retention ponds would partially alleviate some of that risk.

I will also tell you that the powers at be didn’t take removing the RoA lightly. They brainstormed multiple solutions that didn’t go as far and this is the one that made the most economic sense. There are plenty of other ways to fix the problems at hand… but no one wants to spend that much to fix it. We’re talking almost a billion dollars here. Try to convince any company to spend that much on something without any visible ROI. Good luck!”

The utilidors do not go up against the Rivers of America, not even some top secret area not included on the publicly available maps. This can be seen in the various overlays that people have done over the years. It can also be seen in just looking at photos of the river bed and how it is constructed, which is as a simple mat. Nor do those photos show an area being patched to try and slow the leaks. An undocumented section would also need egress points which do not pop up in Frontierland along the water’s edge.

Disney undertook a massive, pre-emptive asbestos abatement program back around the turn of the century. The Magic Kingdom and utilidors were the primary focus. This is why the Shooting Gallery space has not been sealed off for abatement while it is being converted into a DVC lounge, they did that work years ago. Asbestos that is in place and in good condition is not what is dangerous, it’s damaged asbestos that is dangerous. It was also mostly used in insulation and fire protection products.

Let’s though assume the information relayed is correct. That the utilidors do go right up to the Rivers of America and that area is full of asbestos. First, if the area is damaged and leaky, then that means the asbestos is damaged and Disney is exposing thousands of employees day in and day out. Second, a wall that is designed to hold up against water wouldn’t have the same structural design as one intended to hold up soil. Last, and this is the important one, a leaky wall means water is already able to get into it. Despite how things were over half a century ago, the utilidors are a basement condition and will remain a basement condition after these projects are complete. If water can get into now then it will still be able to get in even after the body of water is gone. Water will still be in the ground and following along those same pathways that it is following now. The utilidors are also made of reinforced concrete, so everyday that water coming through is corroding the steel rebar that gives the concrete its strength. All together, what’s being described isn’t “some ops issues” but gross negligence putting employees and guests at serious risk. This isn’t something they can just wait on, especially if the fix is somehow in the billion dollar range (that’s not how much it should cost to replace a concrete wall). And yet they haven’t even bothered to put up a cofferdam to relieve the stress on the wall and dramatically slow the leaking.

That billion dollar price tag is also something to consider. We’re talking about replacing a concrete wall and it’s a number that’s just too high. Universal excavated a new basement under existing buildings for The Bourne Stuntacular and such costs would have made that prohibitive. Disney hasn’t aggressively pursued buying back the Marvel rights for Florida in part because it would add too much cost to projects. New, different work, would cost more than going with a version of what exists, and so these new lands already have a billion+ against them with nothing to show for it?

You also think CFTOD was searching for any dumb thing to point to as a problem and just decided to ignore this? Actual public danger in the world’s busiest theme park was not juicy enough? And then not just this specific issue but the whole system being inadequate? That everybody there is more loyal to the ousted leadership? The same for the South Florida Water Management District which also oversees the area?

The real cherry on top though is citing an urban planner / industrial engineer. Those are generally different things but could overlap in a theme park as they deal with master planning and crowd flow. Neither though is a discipline that would be involved in any aspect of this supposed issue, which would be civil and structural engineering. It’s like saying you learned something about Catholic beliefs from a rabbi. The rabbi is a religious leader and may know, but it’s a rather silly authority to reference. Zanetti not only doesn’t know the technical material involved but doesn’t even know who would.

 

[Ayla]

The utilidors do not go up against the Rivers of America, not even some top secret area not included on the publicly available maps. This can be seen in the various overlays that people have done over the years. It can also be seen in just looking at photos of the river bed and how it is constructed, which is as a simple mat. Nor do those photos show an area being patched to try and slow the leaks. An undocumented section would also need egress points which do not pop up in Frontierland along the water’s edge.

Disney undertook a massive, pre-emptive asbestos abatement program back around the turn of the century. The Magic Kingdom and utilidors were the primary focus. This is why the Shooting Gallery space has not been sealed off for abatement while it is being converted into a DVC lounge, they did that work years ago. Asbestos that is in place and in good condition is not what is dangerous, it’s damaged asbestos that is dangerous. It was also mostly used in insulation and fire protection products.

Let’s though assume the information relayed is correct. That the utilidors do go right up to the Rivers of America and that area is full of asbestos. First, if the area is damaged and leaky, then that means the asbestos is damaged and Disney is exposing thousands of employees day in and day out. Second, a wall that is designed to hold up against water wouldn’t have the same structural design as one intended to hold up soil. Last, and this is the important one, a leaky wall means water is already able to get into it. Despite how things were over half a century ago, the utilidors are a basement condition and will remain a basement condition after these projects are complete. If water can get into now then it will still be able to get in even after the body of water is gone. Water will still be in the ground and following along those same pathways that it is following now. The utilidors are also made of reinforced concrete, so everyday that water coming through is corroding the steel rebar that gives the concrete its strength. All together, what’s being described isn’t “some ops issues” but gross negligence putting employees and guests at serious risk. This isn’t something they can just wait on, especially if the fix is somehow in the billion dollar range (that’s not how much it should cost to replace a concrete wall). And yet they haven’t even bothered to put up a cofferdam to relieve the stress on the wall and dramatically slow the leaking.

That billion dollar price tag is also something to consider. We’re talking about replacing a concrete wall and it’s a number that’s just too high. Universal excavated a new basement under existing buildings for The Bourne Stuntacular and such costs would have made that prohibitive. Disney hasn’t aggressively pursued buying back the Marvel rights for Florida in part because it would add too much cost to projects. New, different work, would cost more than going with a version of what exists, and so these new lands already have a billion+ against them with nothing to show for it?

You also think CFTOD was searching for any dumb thing to point to as a problem and just decided to ignore this? Actual public danger in the world’s busiest theme park was not juicy enough? And then not just this specific issue but the whole system being inadequate? That everybody there is more loyal to the ousted leadership? The same for the South Florida Water Management District which also oversees the area?

The real cherry on top though is citing an urban planner / industrial engineer. Those are generally different things but could overlap in a theme park as they deal with master planning and crowd flow. Neither though is a discipline that would be involved in any aspect of this supposed issue, which would be civil and structural engineering. It’s like saying you learned something about Catholic beliefs from a rabbi. The rabbi is a religious leader and may know, but it’s a rather silly authority to reference. Zanetti not only doesn’t know the technical material involved but doesn’t even know who would.

Thank you. I was hoping you had a rebuttal to these confidently wrong claims.

 

[Streetway Again]

Just putting this here just for refrence, but don’t harrrass individual imagineers over this project. Not cool, and a downright mean thing to do.

Just don’t do it generally. Ok?

 

[Disstevefan1]

From Bill Zanetti (Professor at the University of Central Florida):

I have edited some of Bill’s posts for clarity.

“Keeping the rivers open as is would eventually flood the utilidoors. Something has to be done. Major riverbed maintenance, maybe even full replacement, is required. So all the company is doing here is trying to solve some ops issues and get a good ROI.”

“There’s too much potential for overflow in addition to some issues in the actual retaining walls that need replacing and asbestos removal. Happy to go into it more but it was explained to me by an urban planner / industrial engineer so it gets detailed.”

“The utilidoors literally are up against the retaining wall in Frontierland and they’re littered with asbestos. It’s a huge deal.”

“I don’t have a duck in this fight. I’m just telling you what I’ve been told by some EXTREMELY high up people within the company. You are acting like I’m some kind of corporate shill. If you can’t take my word for it, then you’ll have to go talk to someone at CFTOD that has been in water management for at least 15 years. They’ll confirm that WDW’s flood control systems have been pushed to their limits for a very long time now and major changes have been implemented to deal with a lot of development around property. I don’t know how detailed they’ll be about the RoA, but I’m sure they will talk about it at least a little and explain to you that ANY major bodies of water create issues in that area. The utilidoors are at risk and this project with the new proposed drainage systems and retention ponds would partially alleviate some of that risk.

I will also tell you that the powers at be didn’t take removing the RoA lightly. They brainstormed multiple solutions that didn’t go as far and this is the one that made the most economic sense. There are plenty of other ways to fix the problems at hand… but no one wants to spend that much to fix it. We’re talking almost a billion dollars here. Try to convince any company to spend that much on something without any visible ROI. Good luck!”

This sounds like the sink hole story Disney made up when they destroyed and replaced Horizons

 

[HauntedPirate]

I wonder if there’s any chance of going back to the old style of parks where not everything needed to be a big E-Ticket with premium lightning lanes and virtual queues and all that. I don’t get how Disney gets busier the more expensive it is

It doesn't. Reported attendance numbers back up the "it's not getting busier" argument. Somehow, it seems as though they've become worse at managing crowds.

I've been told by people I trust that LL revenue potential is a line-item for every new ride build. Without it, a ride doesn't get built.

 

[James Alucobond]

I've been told by people I trust that LL revenue potential is a line-item for every new ride build. Without it, a ride doesn't get built.

That doesn't mean everything has to be a massive E-ticket. Most of the parks lack the quantity of attractions necessary to make the multipass (especially) and premier pass options attractive. Exclusively adding single pass attractions doesn't help multipass as much as a more balanced approach would.