MK Cars-Themed Attractions at Magic Kingdom

[Streetway Again]

Just putting this here just for refrence, but don’t harrrass individual imagineers over this project. Not cool, and a downright mean thing to do.

Just don’t do it generally. Ok?

 

[Disstevefan1]

From Bill Zanetti (Professor at the University of Central Florida):

I have edited some of Bill’s posts for clarity.

“Keeping the rivers open as is would eventually flood the utilidoors. Something has to be done. Major riverbed maintenance, maybe even full replacement, is required. So all the company is doing here is trying to solve some ops issues and get a good ROI.”

“There’s too much potential for overflow in addition to some issues in the actual retaining walls that need replacing and asbestos removal. Happy to go into it more but it was explained to me by an urban planner / industrial engineer so it gets detailed.”

“The utilidoors literally are up against the retaining wall in Frontierland and they’re littered with asbestos. It’s a huge deal.”

“I don’t have a duck in this fight. I’m just telling you what I’ve been told by some EXTREMELY high up people within the company. You are acting like I’m some kind of corporate shill. If you can’t take my word for it, then you’ll have to go talk to someone at CFTOD that has been in water management for at least 15 years. They’ll confirm that WDW’s flood control systems have been pushed to their limits for a very long time now and major changes have been implemented to deal with a lot of development around property. I don’t know how detailed they’ll be about the RoA, but I’m sure they will talk about it at least a little and explain to you that ANY major bodies of water create issues in that area. The utilidoors are at risk and this project with the new proposed drainage systems and retention ponds would partially alleviate some of that risk.

I will also tell you that the powers at be didn’t take removing the RoA lightly. They brainstormed multiple solutions that didn’t go as far and this is the one that made the most economic sense. There are plenty of other ways to fix the problems at hand… but no one wants to spend that much to fix it. We’re talking almost a billion dollars here. Try to convince any company to spend that much on something without any visible ROI. Good luck!”

This sounds like the sink hole story Disney made up when they destroyed and replaced Horizons

 

[HauntedPirate]

I wonder if there’s any chance of going back to the old style of parks where not everything needed to be a big E-Ticket with premium lightning lanes and virtual queues and all that. I don’t get how Disney gets busier the more expensive it is

It doesn't. Reported attendance numbers back up the "it's not getting busier" argument. Somehow, it seems as though they've become worse at managing crowds.

I've been told by people I trust that LL revenue potential is a line-item for every new ride build. Without it, a ride doesn't get built.

 

[James Alucobond]

I've been told by people I trust that LL revenue potential is a line-item for every new ride build. Without it, a ride doesn't get built.

That doesn't mean everything has to be a massive E-ticket. Most of the parks lack the quantity of attractions necessary to make the multipass (especially) and premier pass options attractive. Exclusively adding single pass attractions doesn't help multipass as much as a more balanced approach would.

 

[Charlie The Chatbox Ghost]

Oh right, Bears were meant to be taken over by Woody's Roundup.

Ugh. I think the Bears would've been a greater loss all things considered.

Maybe ROA was a sacrifice to stop several Pixar bullets at different resorts? It's weird I'm advocating against the use of Pixar bullets but am fully aware I want something with WALL-E in EPCOT. But meaning, thematics, that jazz.

Not Larry the Cable Guy in Frontierland. Or Owen Wilson.

I think me being grumpy is more to do with the Cars IP and less ROA going away. I think Disney CAN do something to fill in the hole left by the ROA, I just don't think Cars is the way to do so. It'd have to be something... ORIGINAL?!

oh yeah, losing the bears would’ve been FAR worse than losing the river. The bears are irreplaceable. The river could be replaced with something good but Cars is an awful pick.

Although I do like seeing the riverboat and the Mansion across the water, so I dunno. I guess I just wish there was a way to keep the water.

Also, WALL·E would be perfect for Tomorrowland imo! Get rid of MILF and BLSRS since they both have their own lands now and put a WALL·E dark ride there.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Someone posted this exact map. This is what he had to say.

“No, you don’t get it. The utilidoors literally are up against the retaining wall in Frontierland (there’s a small extension that is not shown on your not completely accurate maps) and they’re littered with asbestos. It’s a huge deal. You can either believe me or be wrong.”

He’s a professor at the University of Central Florida, and specifically teaches about theme parks. He also worked for Disney for 10 years. He’s also the executive producer of Defunctland, FWIW.

The maps of the utilidors are not intended for public use. Some of the drawings out there are also based on the “blueprints” and even more accurate than a navigational representation.

Many people on this site have been in the utilidors. Many people online have been in the utilidors. Thousands of people in general have been in the utilidors. They’re not that big and unmarked doors to secret areas would not go unnoticed. The secret Frontierland utilidor that isn’t on the maps would be the worst kept Disney secret and be on every Disney trivia list.

 

[Charlie The Chatbox Ghost]

It would be a billion well spent. As I said, they’re making a choice. It may be the better choice in terms of profitability, but it certainly isn’t the better choice for the identity, look, and feel of the park.

I agree 100%. It’s gonna look messy and the CBJ street is gonna feel cramped with a tree line right up against it.

If they re saying a billion it would probably cost half that or less and they lose that on crappy movies every other month. God forbid they invest into their flagship park on something that doesn’t show direct ROI. They don’t understand or value their product. This is penny wise and pound foolish.

the parks are pretty much used to keep the other parts of the company afloat. No need to worry about bombs when you have theme park money to make up for it!

It doesn't. Reported attendance numbers back up the "it's not getting busier" argument. Somehow, it seems as though they've become worse at managing crowds.

I've been told by people I trust that LL revenue potential is a line-item for every new ride build. Without it, a ride doesn't get built.

so much for capacity, then. If they want every new line to be hours long so people are forced to buy LL, that just makes things worse.

 

[HauntedPirate]

That doesn't mean everything has to be a massive E-ticket. Most of the parks lack the quantity of attractions necessary to make the multipass (especially) and premier pass options attractive. Exclusively adding single pass attractions doesn't help multipass as much as a more balanced approach would.

It doesn't. But what generates more LL revenue - A headliner or a D- or C-ticket? And what have Bob and Co. focused on since 2017? Headliners. Sure, sometimes ancillary rides get built, like the Saucers, but look at the last decade and what's been built, rebuilt, or reskinned, and what generates a lot of LL revenue.

You and I and a lot of others around here know that they really should be building more complete lands, with a headliner, supporting ride, and some people eaters instead of headliner... headliner... headliner...

 

[Grantwil93]

There is also some level of audience concentration here. Disney does not view itself as having a problem attracting guests. As with many companies, when you have that luxury, you go after your top performing group. MK is the main star, and they want people who love current IPs they can merchandise. They stay in the hotels more, buy DVC more, buy merch more and don't get as upset when things change. They want Disney (franchise) fans who love their characters, food, etc. more than Disney Parks fans. That's not meant as an attack on anyone at all. There is a very real phenomenon that "people go to Disney Parks to see Disney characters" in the GP. It is also very, very true that's not at all what got the Parks to the fandom they have today. But, Disney is capitalizing on that, especially for MK.

I do think there are some valid criticisms of that approach, and it may prove short sighted in the long-run (especially as Disney struggles to create anything new). But, I think it's difficult to argue that audience focusing isn't part of this and other decisions happening in the company today as it relates to the Parks.

I don't know the exact quote off hand, but there is a quote from Walt all over the place backstage at Disney near or in the entertainment buildings that essentially says, "what sets our parks apart are the Disney characters."

That mindset isn't new, I think they just take it too far for some in relatively recent history.

 

[Grantwil93]

Agreed. I am perturbed about losing the waterfront along Liberty Square. Would be more than happy to see the LB docked permanently on a small stretch of "river". I would shed no tears for the loss of TSI and the Old West motif. Give me a Frontierland focused on Rocky Mountain landscapes over that any day.

Ive been really sick of the old west theme more so because its not just been the old west for essentially ever.

Country bears, the Riverboat and Tom Sawyer island, Splash mountain or Tiana's, etc.

None of that is the old west.

And the Frontier and the exploration of it is perspective on the era and who's perspective we are exploring.

But any aspect of Wilderness from the Mississippi River all the way to Alaska definitely counts to me given we have had Tennessee and Missouri since its inception and Georgia and Now Lousiana since the 80's

 

[Charlie The Chatbox Ghost]

I don't know the exact quote off hand, but there is a quote from Walt all over the place backstage at Disney near or in the entertainment buildings that essentially says, "what sets our parks apart are the Disney characters."

That mindset isn't new, I think they just take it too far for some in relatively recent history.

I mean, the Hatbox Ghost and Big Al are technically Disney characters. I feel like he meant “Disney” as in the vibe and style and not just “preexisting characters from movies”

 

[Grantwil93]

I mean, the Hatbox Ghost and Big Al are technically Disney characters. I feel like he meant “Disney” as in the vibe and style and not just “preexisting characters from movies”

Oh I agree. I'm just saying that this is sorta one of those core ideas that over time gets changed from the original point, but it's hard to argue against because you can take it lots of different ways.

 

[Grantwil93]

Yes. It sucks to admit, but we are the smallest group at wdw. The ones who pay the bills at wdw are the tourists. And the tourists/gp will probably love cars way more. Disneyland needs
AP’S way more, so more often, they cater to them.

And we cannot stop the march of time. No matter how hard we try. As pessimistic as this sounds, this is the way things are now, probably for a long time. We should still fight back on these bad changes, but we need to accept the best we will get is compromises from Disney, like what’s happening at DAK with tropical Americas.

Im thrilled by the compromise we are getting for DAK. Its not ideal, but i truly believe that it will fit the park very well looks wise and they are keeping it in line with the design philosophy of the park with a geographic location being an anchor point for an area

Im hoping that what we can do here, is get the Cars area to be the best fit it can be by being vocal. Trying to outright change their mind isn't going to happen in the scope of this board.

 

[Disstevefan1]

I wonder if there’s any chance of going back to the old style of parks where not everything needed to be a big E-Ticket with premium lightning lanes and virtual queues and all that. I don’t get how Disney gets busier the more expensive it is

With the rise of LL, Every attraction being considered must have the potential to sell the maximum LLs possible and I think only E-Tickets fit that bill.

Having said that, I am not sure Disney wants to spend the money to build attractions and maybe they really do not want to increase capacity of the parks so that LLs keep selling.

The fewer attractions, the cheaper to operate the park and the fewer attractions, the more the need for LLs.

Fewer attractions is a win win for Disney.

 

[Charlie The Chatbox Ghost]

To be clear, he’s referring to the new berm that will hide the Cars attractions from guests standing in Liberty Square and the existing Frontierland walkways.

If this is true, and there will be a water feature stretching from Haunted Mansion to in front of Tiana’s/BTM… I’m okay with this. As long as it’s spacious enough that it doesn’t feel cramped, and it hides all sight and muffles all sounds of Cars, I can live with it. I imagine they could make it look like Grizzly Peak in DCA, with pine trees and rock work with waterfalls and streams all feeding into a larger river.

 

[Grantwil93]

How wide do you think a decent walkway actually needs to be?

Personally, if I'm seriously answering this, I'd say at least something that is the average width of the World Showcase walkways. Leaning more towards the front of showcase between Mexico and Canada and less toward the outpost corner

Given how many ppl will be going in and out

 

[Grantwil93]

Yes Monsters, Tropical Americas, and Cars are designed to provide new attractions that can be revenue making with Lightning Lane and merchandise in place of attractions that are not, and done in the most cost effective way. You can see the same principals in all three projects. ie. remove under-performing attractions (in terms of LL revenues and merchandise), and where possible, reuse existing infrastructure. Monsters and Tropical Americas being the best two examples of the latter.

Re-use existing infrastructure is a huge part of this stuff. It saves so much work and money that im sure the Imagineers who are arguing have a hard time winning based on that point alone. Disney is much more selective on pure expansions in recent history.

 

[flynnibus]

This is somebody that would certainly have connections and has zero reason to lie.

Bill is a former forum junkie like the rest of us.

 

[lazyboy97o]

To be clear, he’s referring to the new berm that will hide the Cars attractions from guests standing in Liberty Square and the existing Frontierland walkways.

Do you not see how that’s worse and contradicts his claims?

 

[Disstevefan1]

To be clear, he’s referring to the new berm that will hide the Cars attractions from guests standing in Liberty Square and the existing Frontierland walkways.

My hope is they keep making the pond bigger until it results in RoA staying