Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[GoofGoof]

In Florida, other vaccines are mandated "Prior to admittance to or attendance in a public or private school." There is no vaccine mandated for adults (or I guess for a child who is home schooled). The Department of Health can add the COVID vaccine for children prior to entering school but not until it is fully approved for children (not just EUA). The way the law is written, they could only require it for a student first entering school and would not be able to mandate a yearly shot.

Although I am convinced that these vaccines are both safe and effective, we have to remember that none of them are actually FDA approved at this point. I don't see how you can mandate that somebody take something that is still under an EUA.

The best analogy I can come up with is it would be OK for a company to require an employee to take a business trip that required flying on a commercial aircraft which is FAA certified. It would not have been OK for a company to require an employee to fly on the Space Shuttle (before Challenger) because it was not actually certified and was considered an experimental vehicle throughout the entire program. I admit not the greatest analogy but I'm trying to illustrate that there is a difference between something fully approved and something that isn't with respect to mandates.

My wife has had to have vaccines in order to work. She worked as a contract employee in multiple daycare centers and all of them required all of the vaccinations. She even had to get titers done to show she still has anti-bodies for the usual vaccines you get as a kid. It is absolutely legal to mandate a vaccine for employment and for education. The EUA aspect is a grey area. I don’t believe we have a historic precedent for this so it’s not illegal to mandate if it’s under EUA just not tested in court.

 

[Heppenheimer]

My wife has had to have vaccines in order to work. She worked as a contract employee in multiple daycare centers and all of them required all of the vaccinations. She even had to get titers done to show she still has anti-bodies for the usual vaccines you get as a kid. It is absolutely legal to mandate a vaccine for employment and for education. The EUA aspect is a grey area. I don’t believe we have a historic precedent for this so it’s not illegal to mandate if it’s under EUA just not tested in court.

I think if anyone challenged mandatory vaccinations on that ground, they would fail. The reason the vaccines currently do not have full FDA approval is because we don't yet have long-term efficacy data. They have already passed all of the same safety and short-term efficacy standards that are required for any vaccine.

 

[Bob Harlem]

I think if anyone challenged mandatory vaccinations on that ground, they would fail. The reason the vaccines currently do not have full FDA approval is because we don't yet have long-term efficacy data. They have already passed all of the same safety and short-term efficacy standards that are required for any vaccine.

Those who look at raw data see the extremely minuscule risk for children with the virus compared to the unknowns of a not fully approved and time-tested vaccine and make the call that it's more risky to get children vaccinated than not. So requiring vaccine for the kids is an uphill battle. "You don't mess around with the kids" is going to be a hard wall to break (as it should be) and really should be left up to the parents, at least until fully approved and time has passed.

 

[GoofGoof]

I think if anyone challenged mandatory vaccinations on that ground, they would fail. The reason the vaccines currently do not have full FDA approval is because we don't yet have long-term efficacy data. They have already passed all of the same safety and short-term efficacy standards that are required for any vaccine.

My guess is a hospital somewhere will require it and then it will play out in court, unless the give full FDA approval soon. Hospital of University this Fall.

 

[GoofGoof]

Those who look at raw data see the extremely minuscule risk for children with the virus compared to the unknowns of a not fully approved and time-tested vaccine and make the call that it's more risky to get children vaccinated than not. So requiring vaccine for the kids is an uphill battle. "You don't mess around with the kids" is going to be a hard wall to break and really should be left up to the parents, at least until fully approved.

It won’t be possible to require for the next school year starting Fall 2021 since all school age kids won’t be eligible and by Fall 2022 the vaccines will be fully approved but hopefully we won’t need to mandate them by then.

 

[Nubs70]

Those who look at raw data see the extremely minuscule risk for children with the virus compared to the unknowns of a not fully approved and time-tested vaccine and make the call that it's more risky to get children vaccinated than not. So requiring vaccine for the kids is an uphill battle. "You don't mess around with the kids" is going to be a hard wall to break and really should be left up to the parents, at least until fully approved.

Not knowing the long term implications of covid vaccines on developing children is something that needs to be discussed.

 

[GoofGoof]

Some bad news for the doom and gloom crowd

As US nears vaccine tipping point, dramatic decrease in COVID-19 cases could come without herd immunity, some experts say

Some researchers say just 10% to 15% more Americans need to be vaccinated against COVID-19 to reach a tipping point at which cases dramatically fall.

www.yahoo.com

 

[dreday3]

Some bad news for the doom and gloom crowd

As US nears vaccine tipping point, dramatic decrease in COVID-19 cases could come without herd immunity, some experts say

Some researchers say just 10% to 15% more Americans need to be vaccinated against COVID-19 to reach a tipping point at which cases dramatically fall.

www.yahoo.com

Thank you for a small dose of positivity!

 

[DisneyCane]

My wife has had to have vaccines in order to work. She worked as a contract employee in multiple daycare centers and all of them required all of the vaccinations. She even had to get titers done to show she still has anti-bodies for the usual vaccines you get as a kid. It is absolutely legal to mandate a vaccine for employment and for education. The EUA aspect is a grey area. I don’t believe we have a historic precedent for this so it’s not illegal to mandate if it’s under EUA just not tested in court.

I should have clarified that I was talking about government mandates of vaccines and specifically the Florida law related thereto.

 

[lazyboy97o]

With respect to States of Emergency I think the State can supersede any "political subdivision." In general, a "political subdivision" can have local ordinances as long as they do not conflict with State law. Kind of like after Hurricane Andrew when Miami-Dade county implemented stricter building codes than the State required.

Another example (making up numbers), if the State fire code allows for a capacity of .5 people per square foot and a county wants to set it a 0.25 people per square foot, they can do that.

What they can't do is decide this week to pass an ordinance that cuts restaurant capacity in half since the State level EO does not allow cutting capacity by an order by a "political subdivision." Passing the ordinance would be considered an ex post facto law and could not be applied to existing restaurants.

It’s interesting that you chose the fire code to use as your example because the fire code has provisions that require ongoing compliance, can and do change and gives wide authority to local fire officials. Maximum occupancies are not as set as you describe and local officials do technically have existing authority to impose certain requirements/changes, especially with the way some businesses have chosen to implement mitigation.

 

[DisneyFan32]

So far US is doing better to keep down COVID-19 cases to end the pandemic soon along with UK and Israel as the worldwide such as Brazil and India not too good!

 

[JD80]

Some bad news for the doom and gloom crowd

As US nears vaccine tipping point, dramatic decrease in COVID-19 cases could come without herd immunity, some experts say

Some researchers say just 10% to 15% more Americans need to be vaccinated against COVID-19 to reach a tipping point at which cases dramatically fall.

www.yahoo.com

Go go US citizens!

Just in the last week here in Maryland (moved here in December from NJ) I've seen my local foodstore light up their bring LCD screen outside by the highway with FREE COVID-19 Vaccines - walk in welcome! I've seen a set up COVID-19 vaxx table in my local Target right in the entry way.

In order to get the last 10-30% of the population, we need to make getting a vaccine easy. This means you should be able to walk in anywhere with a pharmacy at any time and get a shot. To do this we need a glut of vaccines.

Right now for those that aren't pure-idiot/anti-vaxx, they need to be able to go down the street and get a vaxx at any hour of the day. A lot of people don't have the time or inclination to schedule an appointment or drive down to a mass vaxx site - whether it's laziness or transportation issues or having to work and not being able to take off.

It needs to be like the flu shot, walk in to the pharmacy at my local grocery store before going shopping, get poked, and then do the shopping all because we felt like it today and got it over with.

Also the different government officials local/state/federal need to start saying FREE FREE FREE FREE shots.

 

[Jrb1979]

Some bad news for the doom and gloom crowd

As US nears vaccine tipping point, dramatic decrease in COVID-19 cases could come without herd immunity, some experts say

Some researchers say just 10% to 15% more Americans need to be vaccinated against COVID-19 to reach a tipping point at which cases dramatically fall.

www.yahoo.com

It's great that cases are dropping, you still enough people vaccinated for Covid to stay low. My concern is for many States good enough is enough.

I guess for me it's that there isn't as much hesitancy here. They opened it up to 18+ in hot spots in Ontario and the appointments are filling quickly every day. The other thing is restrictions are in place til the majority are vaccinated. N

 

[carolina_yankee]

Regarding herd immunity, there was an interesting story on the state of the vaccination process on NPR today with Dr. Ali Khan, dean of the College of Public Health at the University of Nebraska Medical Center.



Right now, it's just the audio. A transcript will be added later. Dr. Khan is asked about herd immunity near the end of the four minute interview. His stance is that herd immunity is a "false idol" with regard to COVID, that it's only really relevant when talking about things like Polio and Measles. Coronaviruses just don't work that way.

The idea is to vaccinate as many people as you can to get numbers as low as you can. There isn't going to be point where it's eliminated, just managed. Follow public health guidelines and vaccinate and you can have very low incidence and a fairly normal life.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Those who look at raw data see the extremely minuscule risk for children with the virus compared to the unknowns of a not fully approved and time-tested vaccine and make the call that it's more risky to get children vaccinated than not. So requiring vaccine for the kids is an uphill battle. "You don't mess around with the kids" is going to be a hard wall to break (as it should be) and really should be left up to the parents, at least until fully approved and time has passed.

That's what the trials are for.

This bears repeating once again. The standard observation period for vaccine safety testing is 3 months. Out of all known side effects for any vaccine, the latest that is known to occur is Guillan-Barre syndrome (not seen with the mRNA vaccines, BTW), and this has a latency period no longer than 6 weeks, and often much sooner. There simply isn't a viable biological mechanism for a side effect related to a vaccine to suddenly appears without a prodrome months to years later.

And this... the reasons the vaccines lack full approval currently is because we don't yet have long-term efficacy data. They can't be approved fully until we know if boosters are needed. But they have all the safety and short-term efficacy data that is needed.

It might be prudent to wait a little after the vaccines go to market before we start mandating them for kids. Mainly because the stage IV surveillance may pick up a reaction that trials weren't sufficiently powered to observe, as we saw with the venous sinus thrombosis reaction in the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. But if the same level of safety is seen in the mRNA vaccines in adults as with kids after we've given out millions of doses, then there's little medical justification to oppose mandating them.

EDIT:

Finally... we mandate MMR vaccination for kids to prevent rather rare measles complications, such as encephalitis, acute disseminated encephalomyelitis and subacute sclerosing panencephalitis. MIS-C in COVID may be more common (data is emerging) than any of the severe complications of measles.

 

[Jrb1979]

Regarding herd immunity, there was an interesting story on the state of the vaccination process on NPR today with Dr. Ali Khan, dean of the College of Public Health at the University of Nebraska Medical Center.



Right now, it's just the audio. A transcript will be added later. Dr. Khan is asked about herd immunity near the end of the four minute interview. His stance is that herd immunity is a "false idol" with regard to COVID, that it's only really relevant when talking about things like Polio and Measles. Coronaviruses just don't work that way.

The idea is to vaccinate as many people as you can to get numbers as low as you can. There isn't going to be point where it's eliminated, just managed. Follow public health guidelines and vaccinate and you can have very low incidence and a fairly normal life.

It why many countries are putting in a proof of vaccine requirement for travel. I expect it to be in place for a few years maybe longer.

 

[Patcheslee]

Where are you seeing that? My calculation has 16-24 at 20.4% and 25-34 at 26.1%. My 16-24 calculation is a little off because my population number includes 15 but unless 15 year old people exist extremely disproportionately to the rest of 15-24, I can't be off by more than 2% or so.

I misspoke it a combination of fully vaccinated and 1st doses: the 15-24 age is hard to narrow down their population
15-24yo 202652 full & 313518 1st shots divided by a population of 1532025=33.69%
25-34yo 370439 full & 369078 1st shots divided by a population of 2764003=26.76%

 

[SorcererMC]

The idea is to vaccinate as many people as you can to get numbers as low as you can. There isn't going to be point where it's eliminated, just managed. Follow public health guidelines and vaccinate and you can have very low incidence and a fairly normal life.

This is an accurate description of what public health experts are actually saying....because it's already happening. We're in the transitional phase from response to recovery.

 

[DisneyFan32]

Some bad news for the doom and gloom crowd

As US nears vaccine tipping point, dramatic decrease in COVID-19 cases could come without herd immunity, some experts say

Some researchers say just 10% to 15% more Americans need to be vaccinated against COVID-19 to reach a tipping point at which cases dramatically fall.

www.yahoo.com

So herd immunity will still be end to the pandemic soon? I'm worried it might not happen so I'm going think about the pandemic will might still forever in USA as winter/fall comes to nightmare as worse... Is this will be change as there will be herd immunity afterall.

 

[SorcererMC]

And this... the reasons the vaccines lack full approval currently is because we don't yet have long-term efficacy data. They can't be approved fully until we know if boosters are needed. But they have all the safety and short-term efficacy data that is needed.

Pfizer and Moderna are saying that they have the six-month data.
Source: https://www.10news.com/news/coronav...val-would-impact-vaccine-mandates-competition
(They probably have press releases on it but I'm too lazy to look it up.)