Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[Tink242424]

And therein the challenge lies...as many just can’t make responsible assessments of their actions, and how that creates risk for others.

No, that just means they don't make the decisions you want them to make. It is quite possible that a person decides to take the risks for themselves and also makes the choice not to be around high risk people. Of course there will always be outliers to anything but that doesn't remove the responsibility from yourself or any other person not to associate with people who don't follow their set of values.

 

[JFP]

For discussion purposes....Please don't shoot the messenger. I believe this was mentioned a few pages back. Story ran on our local news yesterday:

Are NC's coronavirus case numbers inflated? Some scientists say so

North Carolinians have taken more than three million Covid-19 tests during the pandemic. Almost all- 97%- of the positives came through a molecular test using a polymer chain reaction or PCR. While the test is widely regarded as accurate when it comes to positive or negative, some in the...

www.wral.com

 

[Tink242424]

This is not true either. Most of the facilities had infections in their staff population before residents were returned and before anyone had a clue how much community spread had already occurred. Secondly, now that we know that people are not usually contagious after the 9th day, it should be obvious that by the time the residents were returned they were no longer infectious. Think about it. A person has to A. Get sick B. Get sick enough to need hospital care C. Recover enough so they no longer need hospital care. That takes time. But yet people believe patients were cycled fast enough to return while still infectious.

It absolutely happened in NY and NJ...

At a NY nursing home forced to take COVID-19 patients, 24 residents have died

“It’s reckless and careless,” said the granddaughter of a 96-year-old man whose family withdrew him from a Long Island nursing home.

www.nbcnews.com

To free up hospital beds, officials need NJ nursing homes to take back COVID-19 patients

The move, requiring admission of new or returning residents, comes as New Jersey nursing homes have been hit hard by coronavirus.

www.northjersey.com

New Jersey nursing home where 17 bodies were stuffed into tiny morgue hit with lawsuit

The suit alleges that Andover Subacute and Rehabilitation Center I and II did not take proper precautions to keep residents safe from COVID-19.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Tink242424]

So what do you propose to do about all the jerks who don't give a crap if they spread a disease that could kill someone? Because even the mandates aren't enough for some of them.

The same thing that we do with people with the flu (and no COVID is not the flu but the flu also kills people). People need to take responsibility for their own lives and limit their interactions with anyone that doesn't follow their values. When it comes down to work, public transport and other activities in public people have to make a choice. I'm not saying it is always and easy choice but people need to take personal responsibility for their own actions and stop worrying so much about what everyone else is doing.

At the same time we should be promoting common sense measures through local government as well as the media. Incentivize (not sure of spelling ) people to do the right thing. Enough with the fear mongering and mandates. Lets think outside of the box to create a social movement and a swell of national pride about beating the virus back. It could be done if we had leadership in both parties that wanted to come together but instead everyone wants to fight each other over nonsense and impose draconian measures.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

The same thing that we do with people with the flu (and no COVID is not the flu but the flu also kills people). People need to take responsibility for their own lives and limit their interactions with anyone that doesn't follow their values. When it comes down to work, public transport and other activities in public people have to make a choice. I'm not saying it is always and easy choice but people need to take personal responsibility for their own actions and stop worrying so much about what everyone else is doing.

At the same time we should be promoting common sense measures through local government as well as the media. Incentivize (not sure of spelling ) people to do the right thing. Enough with the fear mongering and mandates. Lets think outside of the box to create a social movement and a swell of national pride about beating the virus back. It could be done if we had leadership in both parties that wanted to come together but instead everyone wants to fight each other over nonsense and impose draconian measures.

That's the thing though. PEOPLE DON'T CARE.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

impose draconian measures.

Do you think Disney world is operating under draconian measures?

 

[GoofGoof]

THIS!! I think you might have stumbled on to one of my biggest issues with most people on this forum. They are happy telling everyone to do as they see fit and limiting all people when there may be a better way to achieve the same goal and still protect the most vulnerable.

The problem I see with protecting the most vulnerable as the main solution is that the only way to do that is to limit their activity substantially if we want to let everyone else do what they want. So by removing restrictions it frees up people who are not in the high risk group to go about life without limitations at the expense of limiting the actions of the high risk group.

I believe there is more of a middle ground where limiting certain actions overall allows people in all groups to not be highly restricted. Small limitations for everyone vs half the population acting free of limitations and the other half isolated at home without the ability to work or have any quality of life.

 

[GoofGoof]

Do you think Disney world is operating under draconian measures?

I don’t. Apparently others do.

Under the “protect the vulnerable plan” 50% of the population wouldn’t be able to go to WDW while the other half would be allowed to go without masks, social distancing or capacity limits. I can see how that would be appealing to the young and healthy potentially, but that also means WDW would be down to less than half their normal customer base considering that international flights are still out and that’s 20% of their base. So half of the 80% domestic base would be out leaving them only 40% of their normal customer base and not all of them are guaranteed to want to go. It’s a great example of how putting half the population “on the bench“ is a disaster for the economy. It sounds good in theory until you think through the practical implications.

 

[JoeCamel]

The same thing that we do with people with the flu (and no COVID is not the flu but the flu also kills people). People need to take responsibility for their own lives and limit their interactions with anyone that doesn't follow their values. When it comes down to work, public transport and other activities in public people have to make a choice. I'm not saying it is always and easy choice but people need to take personal responsibility for their own actions and stop worrying so much about what everyone else is doing.

At the same time we should be promoting common sense measures through local government as well as the media. Incentivize (not sure of spelling ) people to do the right thing. Enough with the fear mongering and mandates. Lets think outside of the box to create a social movement and a swell of national pride about beating the virus back. It could be done if we had leadership in both parties that wanted to come together but instead everyone wants to fight each other over nonsense and impose draconian measures.

Just so I understand your position I want to ask a couple of questions. Answer if you want
1. Do you have children?
2. Do you have those children vaccinated if you have kids?
3. Do you get vaccinated against flu?

 

[Tink242424]

Do you think Disney world is operating under draconian measures?

No, I don't think they are. I think they could ease up on masks when you are able to socially distance outside but I also understand why they aren't. Overall they are doing a good job.

I actually went on vacation in Florida at the end of September and went to both Universal and Disney and thought they both did a good job. I was more frustrated at Universal with them mandating hand sanitizer at each ride. I didn't love wearing a mask on the days where we had high heat and humidity but I see that this allows them to be open and to allow their employees a paycheck.

 

[DCBaker]

"Chicago restaurants will no longer provide indoor dining starting Friday, according to Governor JB Pritzker, who said the region’s COVID-19 cases continue to rise, the reason for the mitigation effort."

"According to a news release from the governor’s office “Region 11 has triggered additional mitigations due to a sustained increase in its positivity rate as well as a sustained increase in COVID-related hospitalizations for more than seven of the past ten days. These increases exceed the thresholds set for establishing mitigation measures under the state’s Restore Illinois Resurgence Plan. Region 11 is the second of the state’s 11 regions to trigger additional mitigations based on sustained increases in positivity and hospitalization rates, the first being its neighbor, Region 10 (Suburban Cook County) earlier in the week.

The mitigation efforts for Chicago include:

Bars

• No indoor service
• All outside bar service closes at 11:00 p.m.
• All bar patrons should be seated at tables outside
• No ordering, seating, or congregating at bar (bar stools should be removed)
• Tables should be 6 feet apart
• No standing or congregating indoors or outdoors while waiting for a table or exiting
• No dancing or standing indoors
• Reservations required for each party
• No seating of multiple parties at one table

Restaurants

• No indoor dining or bar service
• All outdoor dining closes at 11:00 p.m.
• Outside dining tables should be 6 feet apart
• No standing or congregating indoors or outdoors while waiting for a table or exiting
• Reservations required for each party
• No seating of multiple parties at one table

Meetings, Social Events, Gatherings

• Limit to lesser of 25 guests or 25 percent of overall room capacity
• No party buses
• Gaming and Casinos close at 11:00 p.m., are limited to 25 percent capacity, and follow mitigations for bars and restaurants, if applicable

The restrictions do not apply to schools or polling places."

Indoor Dining Banned In Chicago, Governor Cites Rising COVID Case Numbers

"No matter where you live, what your politics are, where you work or who you love: Illinois: mask up! And we'll get through this together."

chicago.cbslocal.com

 

[Tink242424]

The problem I see with protecting the most vulnerable as the main solution is that the only way to do that is to limit their activity substantially if we want to let everyone else do what they want. So by removing restrictions it frees up people who are not in the high risk group to go about life without limitations at the expense of limiting the actions of the high risk group.

I believe there is more of a middle ground where limiting certain actions overall allows people in all groups to not be highly restricted. Small limitations for everyone vs half the population acting free of limitations and the other half isolated at home without the ability to work or have any quality of life.

We just view this from different perspectives. Who knows who is right and I'm not sure it matters. I can see your side of the argument even if I don't agree with it.

 

[GoofGoof]

On the vaccine front, on Pfizer’s earnings call today the CEO put to bed any speculation that an announcement on their phase 3 trial happens before the election. He said they have not started the interim analysis yet and it takes 5 to 7 days for the independent board to complete that analysis. He did ask for patience from the public. Overall, I am anxious to see if a vaccine works or not but it’s better for the country as a whole if any hint of political bias is removed from that announcement. Better to let that be a standalone major news story in a few weeks rather than something that’s viewed as a political stunt with less than a week to go to the election. The key is going to be getting as many people as possible on board with taking the vaccine.

 

[Tink242424]

Just so I understand your position I want to ask a couple of questions. Answer if you want
1. Do you have children?
2. Do you have those children vaccinated if you have kids?
3. Do you get vaccinated against flu?

1. No children but I'm very close to my niece & nephew and see them often
2. I would not vaccinate my children or if I did I would follow a very modified schedule
3. No I have not nor do I plan to ever get a flu vaccine

Not sure why that matters but if it makes you feel better to know this about me I'm happy to oblige!

 

[Chi84]

"Chicago restaurants will no longer provide indoor dining starting Friday, according to Governor JB Pritzker, who said the region’s COVID-19 cases continue to rise, the reason for the mitigation effort."

"According to a news release from the governor’s office “Region 11 has triggered additional mitigations due to a sustained increase in its positivity rate as well as a sustained increase in COVID-related hospitalizations for more than seven of the past ten days. These increases exceed the thresholds set for establishing mitigation measures under the state’s Restore Illinois Resurgence Plan. Region 11 is the second of the state’s 11 regions to trigger additional mitigations based on sustained increases in positivity and hospitalization rates, the first being its neighbor, Region 10 (Suburban Cook County) earlier in the week.

The mitigation efforts for Chicago include:

Bars

• No indoor service
• All outside bar service closes at 11:00 p.m.
• All bar patrons should be seated at tables outside
• No ordering, seating, or congregating at bar (bar stools should be removed)
• Tables should be 6 feet apart
• No standing or congregating indoors or outdoors while waiting for a table or exiting
• No dancing or standing indoors
• Reservations required for each party
• No seating of multiple parties at one table

Restaurants

• No indoor dining or bar service
• All outdoor dining closes at 11:00 p.m.
• Outside dining tables should be 6 feet apart
• No standing or congregating indoors or outdoors while waiting for a table or exiting
• Reservations required for each party
• No seating of multiple parties at one table

Meetings, Social Events, Gatherings

• Limit to lesser of 25 guests or 25 percent of overall room capacity
• No party buses
• Gaming and Casinos close at 11:00 p.m., are limited to 25 percent capacity, and follow mitigations for bars and restaurants, if applicable

The restrictions do not apply to schools or polling places."

Indoor Dining Banned In Chicago, Governor Cites Rising COVID Case Numbers

"No matter where you live, what your politics are, where you work or who you love: Illinois: mask up! And we'll get through this together."

chicago.cbslocal.com

We’ve had several news reports quoting restaurant owners who are vowing not to comply. I assume they’re setting up a legal challenge since publicly proclaiming your noncompliance just tells the governor where to send the state police.

 

[GoofGoof]

We just view this from different perspectives. Who knows who is right and I'm not sure it matters. I can see your side of the argument even if I don't agree with it.

Fair enough. I’m a math guy so I probably view things more analytically than some people, When you run the numbers (like the WDW example above) it gets hard to justify a plan where we remove restrictions and just protect the high risk. I’m not even talking about the public health impact of many more people getting infected or the mental health impact of many high risk people not being able to work or have a decent quality of life due to being isolated. The economy will suffer when you take that many people out of it. It’s not a viable plan.

 

[lazyboy97o]

1. No children but I'm very close to my niece & nephew and see them often
2. I would not vaccinate my children or if I did I would follow a very modified schedule
3. No I have not nor do I plan to ever get a flu vaccine

Not sure why that matters but if it makes you feel better to know this about me I'm happy to oblige!

It is a clear demonstration that you are anti-science and more into your own emotions than a preponderance of evidence.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

No, I don't think they are. I think they could ease up on masks when you are able to socially distance outside but I also understand why they aren't. Overall they are doing a good job.

I actually went on vacation in Florida at the end of September and went to both Universal and Disney and thought they both did a good job. I was more frustrated at Universal with them mandating hand sanitizer at each ride. I didn't love wearing a mask on the days where we had high heat and humidity but I see that this allows them to be open and to allow their employees a paycheck.

So why is it draconian outside of Disney world?

 

[SamusAranX]

Italy and other countries in Europe have not been the poster children for mask compliance and social distancing over the summer, it was almost abandoned.

Not that we have either, but let's not think "oh they all were wearing masks, social distancing, restrictions and the virus still spread".

Not trying to be flippant but do you have tangible and quantifiable data, such as a study or cumulative tracking dataset of people’s behavior in those countries? I’m not talking about anecdotal evidence such as news reports or a photo of a crowded public area in a vacuum (outdoor transmission is lower risk not to mention outdoor mask usage was just started to be mandated in Italy). Your line of argument is very close to the No True Scotsman fallacy

I’m not anti mask and in fact am quite aggravated to see public usage so middling especially in my area. But we have to consider the possibility that masks may not work as effectively as we hoped. It’s not something I enjoy considering either; because then our eggs are truly in a vaccine basket or herd immunity / viral burnout basket. The former isn’t guaranteed; the latter will mean a higher death rate per models and I don’t want that

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

For the majority of nursing homes this is not true. The true root of spread is infected seniors being ordered to go back to these facilities where they spread it to other residents. This was evident in NY and NJ at the beginning of the pandemic where the all mighty Cuomo ordered the nursing homes to take the COVID positive patients and he is responsible for the large number of seniors that died as a result. There may be some exposure from visitors and a slightly greater percentage of the staff bringing in the virus. Most of these facilities were put on lock-downs and are still on lock-downs so only staff are going in and most likely are being tested regularly. My sister is a nurse at an assisted living facility here in NJ and the state mandated all residents and staff are tested on a weekly basis and I would guess many other facilities are following the same process.

This is absolutely not true...I’m not saying the nursing home policy during the crisis was correct...but to blame the whole thing on it is a debunked faux news hoax theory.

The virus was imported and spread via travel trough Western Europe before anymore knew what the hell was going on. It was never isolated in the US...the second rise was disregarding restrictions in the sunbelt before they had any clue what they were doing...the late summer/fall spikes lead right back to the younger demographic actively disregarding it and/or I’ll advised going to colleges again (for money...period) and kicking the spread cycle back up again...now the weather is going to aid in vectoring because that’s what happens every winter.

No. No. No.

It’s only been months...everyone can cramp their brains and bother to remember what happened.