On layoffs, very bad attendance, and Iger's legacy being one of disgrace

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Not the “proper way,” the “themed way.” And to what end? To creating a themed experience (which many of us prefer). This is one key difference between being a global vacation destination and a regional weekend park.

The ride in question is the best in Orlando as it stands....so the “regional” destination doesn’t really qualify. Not offense to flight of passage...which is excellent.

This is a uniform criticism that doesn’t really fit this ride. Plenty of “escapism” in potterland

Those people aren’t here in this thread right now, are they?

Well...I didn’t think so. But “theme over substance” sounds awful familiar.

What if it’s a boring ride system? We’re talking about BTM with 3 lift hills and a 45 foot vertical drop. Not exactly the engineering hall of fame.

 

[lazyboy97o]

And I agree on the disjointed story: it's kind of all over the place, continuity wise (see above). I think that's a weakness of the TS IP itself, though, as choosing one timeframe limits you. There's almost always something left out, whether it be Andy (if you go the later film route) or the characters from 3 or 4. Is this what you mean when you say the story is open-ended?

I’m going to go out on a limb and guess you have no childhood memories of going to the toy store and pining for the carnival midway game play sets. That’s what I mean by the story is too opened ended. Anything fits as long as it either a toy version of whatever, made of toys or combination of the two.

1. Nobody said theming is bad. It just doesn’t make everything else bad by default.

2. They went cheap on toy story land. Pretty much the conclusion you come too...not much else to say.

1. No idea what you are talking about.
2. Toy Story Land was not cheap.

I didn’t mean to say that immersion is new or negative. That’s why I put the word in quotation marks- “immersion.”

There is a difference between a place that immerses guests in an (immersive) “imaginative representation” of a place and a “faithful recreation of a place.” The prior is why the Pirates in PftC don’t seem to notice guests as we float by, or the reason the Doom Buggies don’t seem to break the theming in HM. Also, one of my favorite things about Disneyland is how the theming transitions from one area to another in seamless, if awkward (though usually imperceptible) ways.

When people talk about “immersion” these days, it seems to be all about “realism,” or “believability.” Most of the Fantasyland dark rides, or IaSM don’t qualify by this definition because of their more representational approach (which I think is no less immersive)!

To my knowledge. Disney hadn’t done much of this pre- Iger (Carsland, SWGE, TSL), and I can only remember hearing the word “immersive” thrown about by Disney in these more recent times.

I still don’t understand the distinction you are making. I would think using leather straps that nobody would ever see on stagecoaches would be right up there with “faithful recreation” and “realism”.

Last comment on this coaster thing. For me the biggest trade off of hiding coaster track is the thrill that is taken away. My favorite coaster is 200 ft high with a 90 degree drop. Steel Vengeance is one of the most intense coasters in the world. For them to hide the track so I can pretend i on something else, it would have to lose a lot of the height and intensity. I don't know how true this is but it feels like most of you aren't big into high intensity coasters.

Again, you keep ignoring that themed experiences have a different object. Steel Vengeance is not really trying to tell a story. With something like Big Thunder Mountain Railroad or Habgrid’s Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure of Adventuring through the Magical Forbiden Forrest of at the Hogwart’s School of Witchcraft and Wizardry the roller coaster is a tool, a means of telling the story. It’s not the focus. in the case of Hagrid’s the starting point was a ride through the Forbidden Forrest and initially utilized a different roller coaster system (Mack’s Inverted Power Coaster that will be featured in Jurassic World Beijing). Hagrid’s motorcycle can fly but the coaster largely stays close to the ground. The spike was not supposed to be exposed, it was originally intended to be fully enclosed and went through numerous revisions to try and keep the track obscured as much as possible. The track is largely accepted as something required to make the story work, it is largely minimized and not highlighted.

Darkness is one way to hide a coaster’s track from view. But they can also be themed: Big Thunder Mountain Railroad, Radiator Springs Racers/Test Track, The Matterhorn Bobsleds, Expedition Everest, and Indiana Jones and the Temple of Peril are all examples of themed outdoor roller coasters. In each case, you can see the track, but it’s themed as railroad tracks, highway, bobsled run, or mine cart tracks.

How about designing an armature so that the guests sit in a vehicle well above the track so that a second fake track can be placed between the riders and the track? And then, do a lot of work layout out the ride path and scenic elements to obscure the real track as much possible? Part of what is infuriating about Universal is the way they will obsess over something in one project or part of a project, and then immediately act like it doesn’t matter.

 

[UNCgolf]

The ride in question is the best in Orlando as it stands....so the “regional” destination doesn’t really qualify. Not offense to flight of passage...which is excellent.

This is a uniform criticism that doesn’t really fit this ride. Plenty of “escapism” in potterland

Well...I didn’t think so. But “theme over substance” sounds awful familiar.

What if it’s a boring ride system? We’re talking about BTM with 3 lift hills and a 45 foot vertical drop. Not exactly the engineering hall of fame.

Are you talking about Hagrid's?

I haven't been on it, but based on video, I don't think it looks anywhere near as good as Rise of the Resistance, which I've also only seen via video. I don't think Hagrid's even looks as good as Forbidden Journey next door -- which I will never ride again because it made me incredibly sick -- but has more interesting show elements than Hagrid's. Not that that means Hagrid's looks bad; it looks like a great ride. Just doesn't look like the best at Universal or WDW. My favorite ride at Universal is actually Jurassic Park, even though it needs some work. I hope they don't change it to the new Jurassic World ride from LA (even though I'm sure they will) because it looks worse than the current JP one.

As for the ride system -- that's one of the least important parts of a ride to me. Most of the EPCOT rides used the same or very similar ride systems but they were among the best rides any theme park has ever built. The content of the ride is far more important than the ride system.

 

[Jrb1979]

Again, you keep ignoring that themed experiences have a different object. Steel Vengeance is not really trying to tell a story. With something like Big Thunder Mountain Railroad or Habgrid’s Magical Creatures Motorbike Adventure of Adventuring through the Magical Forbiden Forrest of at the Hogwart’s School of Witchcraft and Wizardry the roller coaster is a tool, a means of telling the story. It’s not the focus. in the case of Hagrid’s the starting point was a ride through the Forbidden Forrest and initially utilized a different roller coaster system (Mack’s Inverted Power Coaster that will be featured in Jurassic World Beijing). Hagrid’s motorcycle can fly but the coaster largely stays close to the ground. The spike was not supposed to be exposed, it was originally intended to be fully enclosed and went through numerous revisions to try and keep the track obscured as much as possible. The track is largely accepted as something required to make the story work, it is largely minimized and not highlighted

I'm not ignoring that for Disney coasters its more about the story then the thrill. Which is fine if that's what you like. For me when you make a coaster story based like Disney does, it takes away from the intensity and thrills. Its hard to have coaster with a 200 ft hill and be able to tell a story IMO all of Disney's coasters would be considered kiddie coasters at most other parks. I'm of the belief that rides with storytelling should be left to dark rides

 

[lazyboy97o]

I'm not ignoring that for Disney coasters its more about the story then the thrill. Which is fine if that's what you like. For me when you make a coaster story based like Disney does, it takes away from the intensity and thrills. Its hard to have coaster with a 200 ft hill and be able to tell a story IMO all of Disney's coasters would be considered kiddie coasters at most other parks. I'm of the belief that rides with storytelling should be left to dark rides

That makes no sense. You’d have little variety, you’d have no roller coasters in a theme park.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

1. No idea what you are talking about.
2. Toy Story Land was not cheap.

1. That’s a pity...this back and forth isn’t particularly hard to folow
2. It looks cheap...and it didn’t add much...so what Metics are we using?

I know it’s not going to be a sentence that starts out with “the budget” right?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Are you talking about Hagrid's?

I haven't been on it, but based on video, I don't think it looks anywhere near as good as Rise of the Resistance, which I've also only seen via video. I don't think Hagrid's even looks as good as Forbidden Journey next door -- which I will never ride again because it made me incredibly sick -- but has more interesting show elements than Hagrid's. Not that that means Hagrid's looks bad; it looks like a great ride. Just doesn't look like the best at Universal or WDW. My favorite ride at Universal is actually Jurassic Park, even though it needs some work. I hope they don't change it to the new Jurassic World ride from LA (even though I'm sure they will) because it looks worse than the current JP one.

As for the ride system -- that's one of the least important parts of a ride to me. Most of the EPCOT rides used the same or very similar ride systems but they were among the best rides any theme park has ever built. The content of the ride is far more important than the ride system.

Well...we all have our opinions. And that’s why we come here

 

[tirian]

Darkness is one way to hide a coaster’s track from view. But they can also be themed: Big Thunder Mountain Railroad, Radiator Springs Racers/Test Track, The Matterhorn Bobsleds, Expedition Everest, and Indiana Jones and the Temple of Peril are all examples of themed outdoor roller coasters. In each case, you can see the track, but it’s themed as railroad tracks, highway, bobsled run, or mine cart tracks.

Forbidden Journey’s approach could possibly work outdoors as well, if the track was hidden from the rider’s view and the kuka arm held the ride vehicle over an un-tracked ride path. This technique with a more thrilling track would have been perfect for Hagrid’s Motorbike Adventure, in my opinion.

That’s similar to the plan for the Donkey Kong coaster, except it won’t be a Kuka arm.

 

[Jrb1979]

That makes no sense. You’d have little variety, you’d have no roller coasters in a theme park.

Disney has lots of variety and I would say the majority of their rides are dark rides. You could have roller coasters in a theme park. Universal does and outside the mummy the rest of their coasters don't have much of a story but are better then any of the Disney ones. I would love to see a coaster like Hulk at Disney.

 

[doctornick]

My favorite ride at Universal is actually Jurassic Park, even though it needs some work. I hope they don't change it to the new Jurassic World ride from LA (even though I'm sure they will) because it looks worse than the current JP one.

Complete aside, but related to the discussion of ride preferences... whenever I ride JPA at Uni I always think “wouldn’t it be awesome to have the first half of the ride be y’know the whole ride”. Like instead of having the standard “and then things go horribly wrong” plot, just have a nice relaxing ride about dinosaurs. I get that it goes against the general concept of the Jurassic Park franchise, but I just think it would be a nice compliment to existing offerings in IoA.

 

[tirian]

Are you talking about Hagrid's?

I haven't been on it, but based on video, I don't think it looks anywhere near as good as Rise of the Resistance, which I've also only seen via video. I don't think Hagrid's even looks as good as Forbidden Journey next door -- which I will never ride again because it made me incredibly sick -- but has more interesting show elements than Hagrid's. Not that that means Hagrid's looks bad; it looks like a great ride. Just doesn't look like the best at Universal or WDW. My favorite ride at Universal is actually Jurassic Park, even though it needs some work. I hope they don't change it to the new Jurassic World ride from LA (even though I'm sure they will) because it looks worse than the current JP one.

As for the ride system -- that's one of the least important parts of a ride to me. Most of the EPCOT rides used the same or very similar ride systems but they were among the best rides any theme park has ever built. The content of the ride is far more important than the ride system.

IMHO...

As outspoken as I’ve recently been about the falling quality of WDI’s work, I do think ROTR is something they came very close to getting right.

However, the consensus among many theme park fans has been “once in a while,” mostly because of the IP choice and finite story. Once you know what’s going to happen,the surprise is gone, and your enjoyment depends on how much you enjoy the same experience repeatedly. I admire it for its technical feats and showmanship courtesy of the Star Wars film art directors c.1977 – 2005.

Meanwhile, I think Hagrid is a solid B attraction with some insane decisions, namely the ridiculous creature* that should’ve just been on a turntable instead of floating on a stick. The unicorn animated figures look like a department store’s animated Christmas displays rather than AAs. But the public loves this ride. It has a high reputation online. I don’t understand its popularity—yet I concede a first-time guest could make the same point about many of Disney’s classic attractions such as Dumbo or Living with the Land.

Nostalgia has shifted, and the public seems to be growing more excited about IPs at Uni instead of Disney. Classic Disney will always be best, hence the MK’s attendance levels. However, when Super Nintendo World opens in Florida, everything Disney has added since Pandora will look subpar.

I hope this spurs new innovation and an exciting theme park war. Then We the Customers will win!

*I’m not a Potter fan and don’t know what it’s called, and I don’t feel like doing an easy Google search. Sorry.

 

[tirian]

Disney has lots of variety and I would say the majority of their rides are dark rides. You could have roller coasters in a theme park. Universal does and outside the mummy the rest of their coasters don't have much of a story but are better then any of the Disney ones. I would love to see a coaster like Hulk at Disney.

Rather than California Screamin’, DCA 1.0 should’ve had a “Zorro’s Whip” coaster. Considering Zorro’s fictional connection to California’s history, this would’ve made more sense and would’ve been acceptable within DCA.

 

[UNCgolf]

Complete aside, but related to the discussion of ride preferences... whenever I ride JPA at Uni I always think “wouldn’t it be awesome to have the first half of the ride be y’know the whole ride”. Like instead of having the standard “and then things go horribly wrong” plot, just have a nice relaxing ride about dinosaurs. I get that it goes against the general concept of the Jurassic Park franchise, but I just think it would be a nice compliment to existing offerings in IoA.

I've actually thought that too. I would love a ride through a bunch of animatronic dinosaurs; like a more serious version of the Jungle Cruise.

The drop in JPA is pretty fun, though.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Disney has lots of variety and I would say the majority of their rides are dark rides. You could have roller coasters in a theme park. Universal does and outside the mummy the rest of their coasters don't have much of a story but are better then any of the Disney ones. I would love to see a coaster like Hulk at Disney.

The defining, distinguishing characteristic of a theme park is storytelling. Coasters that just focus on thrill and don’t tell a story means adding in things that are not part of the storytelling and undermining the whole premise. Universal’s coasters all have a story, even Hollywood Rip Ride Rockit has a ridiculous premise that tries to work it into its location.

 

[Sharon&Susan]

Disney has lots of variety and I would say the majority of their rides are dark rides. You could have roller coasters in a theme park. Universal does and outside the mummy the rest of their coasters don't have much of a story but are better then any of the Disney ones. I would love to see a coaster like Hulk at Disney.

Maybe because Disney generally creates rides that appeal to "all ages" while Universal focuses much more on the teen-young adult demographic?

 

[Nubs70]

...says someone NOT locked in New Jersey

Or in a Warsaw Pact country.

 

[yensidtlaw1969]

I think the problem is many Disney fans have the belief that a ride needs to be highly themed to be good. Look no further then the new Jurrasic Park coaster. It looks like it's going to be one of the best new attractions coming in the next year but many Disney fans look down on it cause it's not well themed

It's not that "a ride" needs to be highly themed to be good. It's that Disney made that their trade and did it better than anyone else, setting their own standard for their operations. Standards that other companies have tried and sometimes failed (and sometimes succeeded!) to achieve. Of course, some companies do not aspire to these standards, or do so only some of the time, and that is their perogative.

Personally, I don't hold Universal to Disney's standards. They do not wholly aspire to meet Disney's standards. And why should they? They are their own operation with their own audience. But I will say that my personal tastes in Themed Entertainment are shaped by Disney's classic attractions, so I'm predisposed to be less excited on average by Universal's offerings.

By that measure, I won't call the new Jurassic Park coaster a "bad ride", but to me it appears to be an unimpressive themed experience. Jury is still out, of course, since it isn't complete, but the writing appears to be on the wall for that particular standard. It looks like it should be impressive in other ways.

Given my personal tastes, it astounds me that there are people who consider Hagrid's Motorbike Adventure a more impressive themed experience than Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey. They are free to call it a "better ride" if they so wish, but it stuns me to hear people call Hagrid's theming especially impressive. Fun though it looks to be as a coaster experience. And I do enjoy coasters! But given the choice between a minimally themed juggernaut and a tamer but intricately themed experience, I'll personally take intricate every time. I enjoy physical thrill, but I prefer showmanship - which isn't a judgement on anyone's product.

The Jurassic Coaster may be the best ride built this year, the most fun, the most thrilling - but if someone is looking at it from the perspective of an immersive themed experience then it's likely to fall short in their eyes. That tends to be how Disney fans look at things because that is what Disney is known for producing. That tends to be how I like to look at things - not because that's the only way, not because I expect Universal to cater to me, but simply because those are the types of experience I most want to give my time and money to, that's all.

There are so many standards by which something can be judged as good. To say something doesn't succeed at all of them isn't necessarily to say it's bad, especially if the intention was not to succeed at all of them. I don't get the impression Universal intended the Jurassic Coaster to be an absolutely dazzling themed experience, it seems like it's meant to thrill by a different standard. Which is fine! Doesn't make it bad. But it also doesn't mean I'm interested, given my tastes. I'm simply looking for something else from my themed entertainment than what this ride is offering.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

This one is played out...so my final take:

There is honestly no bigger fan of the history of Disney artistic and technical design. It’s frankly why I go there. I’m not there for made up “mystical energy”, parades, projection shows, characters and cupcakes. Nonsense.
But I still can appreciate that.

For me, this goes back to Disney’s construction over the last 20 years and operation. And that triggers an almost instinctual response from the Disney elite fans...what I call “the praetorians”.

The world is not so small that a normal, highly impressive ride from a technical perspective can’t be better than an over themed one...covered in movie sets with computer designed rock work. It can happen. I’m not saying it does all the time - of course.

The Jurassic park coaster was bagged from the start by the purple cloaks. It’s in record. But that’s silly. Maybe it’s only a shot of adrenaline? Maybe they figured out how to “bridge” the atmosphere and the G-force. That’s kinda hagrids and gringotts. The world is big enough for both.

But it’s kinda elitist to say that a thrill is automatically inferior to theme. And before 8 people say “I didn’t say that”...ya did. Implied the hell out of it.

So while Peter Pan and mine train are fine rides...they don’t have 1 hour/2 hour waits because “theming is superior”. It’s because the Iger management has BADLY mismanaged supply and operation of those parks.

There’s a couple of unrelated elements being crossed here and the truth remains “elusive”.

 

[MisterPenguin]

And that brings me to Bob Iger. Mr. Chairman. Mr. Gotta Put Yoda on His Wife's Dress to Bury Some Search Engine Leads. That guy. It is my pleasure to announce that he will be soon tossed on his ***. In disgrace. His sins, his poor judgement, his poor treatment of subordinates. His malicious temper and outrageous displays of "toxic masculinity" as the kids call it. All this and more is coming out. Good riddance.

It's been almost three months.

When exactly is Iger being "tossed out"?

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

It's been almost three months.

When exactly is Iger being "tossed out"?

...in May