Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[GoofGoof]

Good news the Oxford vaccine is now resuming its trials after getting the all clear!

Good news. Here’s a news story on it.

AstraZeneca resumes UK trials of COVID-19 vaccine halted by patient illness

AstraZeneca has resumed British clinical trials of its COVID-19 vaccine, one of the most advanced in development, after getting the green light from safety watchdogs, the company said on Saturday. The late-stage trials of the experimental vaccine, developed with researchers from the University...

news.yahoo.com

 

[Andrew C]

Literally him and a bunch of cardboard cutouts.

I’m not convinced these are immune. At the very least, likely super spreaders.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Realize this as well about medicine. We sometimes need to make decisions while lacking key information. Sometimes, this results in a favorable outcome, sometimes it doesn't. You can fall back on your clinical training, and consult the data, but ultimately, sometimes there is no by-the-book answer to a clinical question and you need to make a good faith decision. A bit like a Schroedinger's cat situation, really.

I would be much less inclined to trust Dr. Fauci if he hadn't changed his opinions and recommendations as our knowledge about COVID-19 evolves.

 

[DisneyDebRob]

Realize this as well about medicine. We sometimes need to make decisions while lacking key information. Sometimes, this results in a favorable outcome, sometimes it doesn't. You can fall back on your clinical training, and consult the data, but ultimately, sometimes there is no by-the-book answer to a clinical question and you need to make a good faith decision. A bit like a Schroedinger's cat situation, really.

I would be much less inclined to trust Dr. Fauci if he hadn't changed his opinions and recommendations as our knowledge about COVID-19 evolves.

The last paragraph sums it up perfectly. If a expert is not willing to change his recommendations with new data being presented, he really shouldn’t be called a scientist.
By the way, had to look up Schroedingers cat to find out what you meant. Interesting, thanks!

 

[GoofGoof]

I’m not convinced these are immune. At the very least, likely super spreaders.

If anything is a super spreader it’s this guy:

Although it was pretty funny watching him interact with the card board cutouts and getting frustrated when they won’t clap along with him. Covid humor at its best.

 

[MrHappy]

Who said anything in defense of Trump or Pence? It is a failure to have this idiot still around. I’d have had him in my office the next morning and fired him immediately.
If it’s too dangerous for the rest of us to go, he shouldn’t be there at all. He’s 79 you know. And Not sure how much you know about baseball, but that’s a ceremonial function - it isn’t really the first pitch. Isn’t that something we can do without, along With all the other things he has cost us?
Look, if you disagree with the way things are goi g, that’s fine; me too. I’m just reacting to the fact that some people still lend credence to this scam artist.

Haha, good one! You’re hilarious today!

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

as our knowledge about COVID-19 evolves.

BINGO! - That's whats causing so much confusion and stubbornness, misinformation and what have you.

The science evolves. A lot of people seem to forget it was Fauci who came out in February and stated that COVID had a minuscule chance of even impacting the US and that everyone should continue to live their lives. It was no worse than the flu (His words - not mine). WHY? Because that's what the data told him at that point in time.

It then evolved. And in turn the science evolved. Because that is what the data told him. Now, it would impact the US (significantly), but he didn't think masks were necessary (again - his words not mine). Different data points. Different forecast. Different precautions.

Then it evolved again into a pandemic. And the science evolved. And long term consequences of this illness started to become known. And the data told him a different story. And now masks should be worn and social distancing should be observed.

Then other factors seeped into the data. The country didn't shut down because of the thought that everybody was going to contract it and die. The country shut down because the data showed that if a large amount of people did contract it, it would overwhelm the medical facilities - and lead to more deaths than necessary. Because that is what the data told him.

The problem as I see it - is there are too many people holding on to what Fauci said in February and don't take this seriously enough. There are others that are holding on to what he said in March and feel masks aren't important. They just don't understand that things change, data changes, science changes. And rather than evolving with the changes, and being flexible in their thinking - they stubbornly hold on to outdated views based on data points and a science that have long since moved on. And here we are.

 

[GoofGoof]

The only axe I have to grind here is that Fauci considers himself above what he tells everyone, and therefore calls it all into question.
To directly address your post, if those are just cardboard cutouts sitting next to him, wow - they've really come a long way with the simulation technology. And then you say "virtually" no risk. HA! There's virtually no risk in most everything we're doing now, but that doesn't stop him from constantly advocating it, which translates into policy.
Look we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think myself as well as many Americans, regardless of "politics", think he's a discredited bozo.

You obviously don’t watch baseball so I’ll give you a pass there. A bunch of teams throughout MLB were putting cardboard cutouts in the stands and fans could send in pictures and have their cutout added to a seat. Obviously, the people next to him in that picture were not cardboard cutouts, but I think you knew that‘s not what I meant. He’s with his wife and a friend. So I guess you sit around your house with close family members in a mask. To each their own if you choose to do it. I see no issue there.

I‘m not sure how you concluded what Fauci thinks or how he considers himself. If you know him on that personal of a level then maybe it’s true.

 

[GoofGoof]

BINGO! - That's whats causing so much confusion and stubbornness, misinformation and what have you.

The science evolves. A lot of people seem to forget it was Fauci who came out in February and stated that COVID had a minuscule chance of even impacting the US and that everyone should continue to live their lives. It was no worse than the flu (His words - not mine). WHY? Because that's what the data told him at that point in time.

It then evolved. And in turn the science evolved. Because that is what the data told him. Now, it would impact the US (significantly), but he didn't think masks were necessary (again - his words not mine). Different data points. Different forecast. Different precautions.

Then it evolved again into a pandemic. And the science evolved. And long term consequences of this illness started to become known. And the data told him a different story. And now masks should be worn and social distancing should be observed.

Then other factors seeped into the data. The country didn't shut down because of the thought that everybody was going to contract it and die. The country shut down because the data showed that if a large amount of people did contract it, it would overwhelm the medical facilities - and lead to more deaths than necessary. Because that is what the data told him.

The problem as I see it - is there are too many people holding on to what Fauci said in February and don't take this seriously enough. There are others that are holding on to what he said in March and feel masks aren't important. They just don't understand that things change, data changes, science changes. And rather than evolving with the changes, and being flexible in their thinking - they stubbornly hold on to outdated views based on data points and a science that have long since moved on. And here we are.

It’s the difference between politics and science. As a scientist you are expected to evolve your thinking as new facts come to the surface. As a politician you are supposed to pick a side on an issue and hold that until the day you die. Too many people look at Fauci as a political figure. It’s assumed and expected that his opinions will evolve as more information becomes available.

 

[carolina_yankee]

Fauci has said in interviews how he socializes. This doesn't surprise me one bit. He's outdoors. He's nowhere near strangers. He's with people likely in his immunological bubble. Strikes me as following the exact guidance people are suggesting at this stage of the pandemic. We also see one picture at one second of the game. We don't see any other pictures of him in which he could be masked. Wonder why?

In times of chaos, people want authority. Authority is supposed to provide protection, order, direction. There is very little of that being exercised right now. The pandemic itself undercuts the ability too provide order. What little we are getting of protection and direction, whether from scientists or government officials, many people don't want. So most people are angry at somebody. We all have different targets for reasons we each find justifiable.

Sadly, the new Ohio Director of Health accepted the position and then declined 24 hours later because she learned of how her predecessors family was harassed by the public. We're turning our anger on the very people who can give us the information we need to get through this.

Collectively, I think we're stuck in the anger and denial phases of grief at the losses this pandemic has caused.

 

[Chi84]

This didn’t stop Europe from having their recent surge in cases. You can’t mask your way out of this. It can be very helpful. But it isn’t the end all, be all as some want to make it out to be.

also both California and Texas have statewide mask mandates. In Florida, it is at more local levels. All three states have been on a similar path.

Illinois has had a mask mandate since May 1. Our positivity rate got as low as 2.4%, but then spiked in a major way beginning in early July, coinciding with two events: Independence Day and the opening of inside service at restaurants and bars. I saw for myself all the cars parked on my block on the 4th - no way those were all people who lived together. State officials attributed the spike to large indoor gatherings (many graduation parties were mentioned) and people who were not in the same household meeting up in restaurants and bars - what the CDC calls prolonged indoor contact with an infected person. I believe the positivity rate almost doubled at one point, despite the fact that the mask mandate was the same throughout.

That's why I agree that we can't "mask" our way out of this. My attitude toward masks has evolved along with changing statements from the experts, including a recent report stating that a person wearing a mask who catches COVID may get a milder case. I have always supported (contrary to a post by the resident mind-reader) mask-wearing as a way of stemming widespread transmission of the virus, even though the chances of getting sick from passing near someone at a grocery store is small. But I'm concerned that the discussion has turned from how to best control the virus to whether people should wear masks in public. Several months ago, a poster asked why people were against mask-wearing because it was so much easier to just throw on a mask and go about your usual routine than to stay home or social distance. Unfortunately, especially going into cold and flu season, it's the routines that have to change. Masks are important, but only if worn correctly and in addition to avoiding large gatherings whenever possible. If not, there's a risk that they are providing a false sense of security.

 

[GoofGoof]

Illinois has had a mask mandate since May 1. Our positivity rate got as low as 2.4%, but then spiked in a major way beginning in early July, coinciding with two events: Independence Day and the opening of inside service at restaurants and bars. I saw for myself all the cars parked on my block on the 4th - no way those were all people who lived together. State officials attributed the spike to large indoor gatherings (many graduation parties were mentioned) and people who were not in the same household meeting up in restaurants and bars - what the CDC calls prolonged indoor contact with an infected person. I believe the positivity rate almost doubled at one point, despite the fact that the mask mandate was the same throughout.

That's why I agree that we can't "mask" our way out of this. My attitude toward masks has evolved along with changing statements from the experts, including a recent report stating that a person wearing a mask who catches COVID may get a milder case. I have always (contrary to a post by the resident mind-reader) supported mask-wearing as a way of stemming widespread transmission of the virus, even though the chances of getting sick from passing near someone at a grocery store is small. But I'm concerned that the discussion has turned from how to best control the virus to whether people should wear masks in public. Several months ago, a poster asked why people were against mask-wearing because it was so much easier to just throw on a mask and go about your usual routine. Unfortunately, especially going into cold and flu season, it's the routines that have to change. Masks are important, but only if worn correctly and in addition to avoiding large gatherings whenever possible. If not, there's a risk that they are providing a false sense of security.

The reason indoor dining is more risky than shopping or visiting a doctor‘s office or even working indoors is that by default you have to take the mask off to eat. There’s a reason spike’s coincided with opening of bars and expanding indoor dining. It’s because people are indoors without masks. There wasn’t an outbreak when Indoor retail stores re-opened. The difference between shopping and dining is you wear masks in one and not the other.

 

[GoofGoof]

And also, I'll wager that I've forgotten more about baseball than you've ever known. Sorry, couldn't let that one pass.

You haven’t watched baseball this season if you didn’t know about the cardboard cutouts.

 

[DCBaker]

Numbers are out -

 

[Chi84]

The reason indoor dining is more risky than shopping or visiting a doctor‘s office or even working indoors is that by default you have to take the mask off to eat. There’s a reason spike’s coincided with opening of bars and expanding indoor dining. It’s because people are indoors without masks. There wasn’t an outbreak when Indoor retail stores re-opened. The difference between shopping and dining is you wear masks in one and not the other.

That wasn't really my point at all. My point was that people need to do more than wear masks in public; they need to avoid large indoor gatherings and events like dining out, where masks cannot or will not be worn. People who are attending family parties/social gatherings or eating out are not going to be wearing masks, no matter how firmly committed they are to wearing them at a grocery store. Witness Dr. Fauci at a baseball game.

 

[GoofGoof]

The only thing I said about the cardboard was "To directly address your post, if those are just cardboard cutouts sitting next to him, wow - they've really come a long way with the simulation technology." I thought it was pretty obvious that it was sarcasm, but if it wasn't, I'm telling you now.

I never said they were cardboard cutouts sitting next to him. The rest of the stadium is full of cardboard cutouts. So let’s just say for argument‘s sake Fauci had Covid at the time this occurred. By taking his mask down while sitting in a stadium with his wife (already exposed at home), 1 friend and a bunch of cardboard cutouts the worst thing that happens is he infects his friend. 1 infection. If they let anyone who wants into a stadium and they can all sit with whoever they want and not wear masks that’s hundreds or thousands of potential infections. If you can’t see the difference than I can’t help you. He was allowed to attend the game because he threw out the first pitch. It’s not hard to follow. Has he been attending every game after that?

On the issue of pulling the mask down It‘s bad optics that the picture was taken. Same happened here when DS opened opened and people snapped pictures of people with masks pulled down to drink or eat. I suppose the only way to prevent that is to not allow eating and drinking. I personally think that’s a little over the top but you are free to feel that’s what the rules should be.

 

[GoofGoof]

That wasn't really my point at all. My point was that people need to do more than wear masks in public; they need to avoid large indoor gatherings and events like dining out, where masks cannot or will not be worn. People who are attending family parties/social gatherings or eating out are not going to be wearing masks, no matter how firmly committed they are to wearing them at a grocery store. Witness Dr. Fauci at a baseball game.

I was agreeing with you. Indoor dining and large public gatherings are a problem.

 

[Chi84]

I was agreeing with you. Indoor dining and large public gatherings are a problem.

They were a major source of the spike in Illinois, and one that our mask mandate could not prevent. The discussion needs to include, but not completely center around, requiring people to wear masks in public.

 

[MisterPenguin]

 

[michmousefan]

This isn’t a knock on Fauci directly but keep in mind that expert opinion is the lowest form of evidence. Someone posted below the other month. And this is why some don’t like when experts float out opinions on everything, all the time, without other evidence.

I think you missed a couple of rungs on the evidence scale...