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EPCOT New Park Entrance coming to Epcot

Chef Mickey

Well-Known Member
The issue wasn't perfection, it was that Railway doesn't really fare so much better than Frozen by the standards we were discussing. Wouldn't quite call Everest perfect either . . . Perfection isn't really a useful barometer in a subjective medium. But there for sure are core competencies that Disney used to deliver on at basically every level of attraction that they now manage to miss even with projects that are major.

Your thoughts on Lands definitely apply - Liberty Square features one of Disney's most beloved classic, sprawling, immersive dark rides, and an impressive Animatronic stage show that has rarely been equalled in scale . . . AND a massive, intricate Riverboat that actually operates, and is still EASILY the most "minor" land in its park. Obviously Galaxy's Edge and Pandora deliver in some ways that do not apply to Liberty Square, but they should blow it away pretty easily considering one is nearly 50 years old and the others are 3 or less. Instead they're more closely matched than must have ever been intended - and, frustratingly, Liberty Square even takes the win for attraction count.
I think Railway is significantly better than Frozen...ride system, story, details, tech, fun, etc.

Everest is massive, has an awesome queue, an amazing story, and that Yeti was incredible for the short time it worked. I would call it a massive negative that it doesn’t work anymore and since it hasn’t worked basically since the ride opened, it’s not even close to perfection anymore (among the many other effects not maintained).
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
The issue wasn't perfection, it was that Railway doesn't really fare so much better than Frozen by the standards we were discussing. Wouldn't quite call Everest perfect either . . . Perfection isn't really a useful barometer in a subjective medium. But there for sure are core competencies that Disney used to deliver on at basically every level of attraction that they now manage to miss even with projects that are major.

Your thoughts on Lands definitely apply - Liberty Square features one of Disney's most beloved classic, sprawling, immersive dark rides, and an impressive Animatronic stage show that has rarely been equalled in scale . . . AND a massive, intricate Riverboat that actually operates, and is still EASILY the most "minor" land in its park. Obviously Galaxy's Edge and Pandora deliver in some ways that do not apply to Liberty Square, but they should blow it away pretty easily considering one is nearly 50 years old and the others are 3 or less. Instead they're more closely matched than must have ever been intended - and, frustratingly, Liberty Square even takes the win for attraction count.

I think their hope with Galaxy's Edge was that the shops/restaurants would essentially be mini-attractions themselves, like Ollivander's at Universal. GE failed on that front, though, for multiple reasons. One, the two biggest, most involved stores are upcharge experiences, which is already a mistake. Secondly, although I haven't experienced the lightsaber shop, there's really nothing special about the droid store at all. There's not much "show" going on there. The rest of the places are fine, but they're not something that's going to blow you away, even as a Star Wars fan. If you don't care about Star Wars, they aren't remotely interesting (my GF has seen Star Wars itself but none of the other movies, and found the whole land boring).
 
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RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Absolutely. FEA is quite boring. Half the ride is screens showing reflections of snowflakes... First time I rode I was like “this ride is missing half the stuff it needed.”

The other IP rides you mentioned stand on their own. FEA is a shell of what it could have been, should have been, and really an uninteresting and inferior successor to Maelstrom.
FEA is a solid C-ticket. I would put it between Peter Pan's Flight and Voyage of the Little Mermaid. I like that FEA isn't a book report of the movie (unlike Peter Pan and Little Mermaid), but the scale is smaller than Mermaid.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
I don't agree. I think it fits into the classic Disney dark ride template (Alice, Snow White, Peter Pan) very well, and is a step above those due to the animatronics and the scale/scope. It's certainly not an E, but it's a very good C+/D. I think the opposite - if it were in Fantasyland, it would have far fewer complaints.
This is absolutely true. The only complaints would be that they didn't go big enough with it. As much as I hate it's placement in EPCOT, if it was the exact same ride with the exact same capacity in Fantasyland it's wait time would be the longest of anything in the park.

EPCOT deserved more and Frozen deserved something other than the shoehorn treatment.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
This is absolutely true. The only complaints would be that they didn't go big enough with it. As much as I hate it's placement in EPCOT, if it was the exact same ride with the exact same capacity in Fantasyland it's wait time would be the longest of anything in the park.

EPCOT deserved more and Frozen deserved something other than the shoehorn treatment.

I think that's true (regarding wait times), but that's almost entirely a factor of the Frozen IP and has little to do with the quality of the ride itself.

Personally, I think it's basically a C-, but I've already explained why. Still much better than the Little Mermaid ride, of course.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
FoP is also great, but it is a screen ride and lacks a little bit of re-rideability for me because the thrill significantly lessens over multiple rides. The pre show is also too long once you’ve seen it.
I'm not sure how or why, but for some reason Flight of Passage is emminently re-rideable for me. I think it's the best version of a screen based simulator but ultimately the "film" will need to be replaced. Presumably content from the sequels will allow for this while maintaining the ride system.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
I think that's true (regarding wait times), but that's almost entirely a factor of the Frozen IP and has little to do with the quality of the ride itself.
Frozen Ever After is a better attraction than Maelstrom. But I do agree that if Maelstrom was updated to the same scale/level of FEA without an IP it would certainly not have the same waits as Frozen Ever After.

This is the inherent problem with IP integration. It creates false demand that disrupts a normal supply/demand curve that's a function of familiarity instead of quality.

I wrote this in September of 2014 right after the announcement: https://www.micechat.com/80259-frozen-world-showcase/

Then I wrote this a year later: https://www.micechat.com/111127-frozen-norway-look-back-back-falls/
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
Frozen Ever After is a better attraction than Maelstrom. But I do agree that if Maelstrom was updated to the same scale/level of FEA without an IP it would certainly not have the same waits as Frozen Ever After.

This is the inherent problem with IP integration. It creates false demand that disrupts a normal supply/demand curve that's a function of familiarity instead of quality.

I wrote this in September of 2014 right after the announcement: https://www.micechat.com/80259-frozen-world-showcase/

Then I wrote this a year later: https://www.micechat.com/111127-frozen-norway-look-back-back-falls/

I think Maelstrom and FEA are roughly comparable, and I'd give Maelstrom the slight edge just for actually fitting in its location and being a bit more interesting (also, closing up the waterfall opening was a giant mistake). But I certainly agree that Maelstrom was not any sort of masterpiece, and I understand people giving FEA the edge because of the impressive AAs.

Totally agree about the IP integration, though. I've been adamant here that there's no way they could turn Gran Fiesta into a Coco ride without overhauling a significant portion of the pavilion because that ride and especially the queue aren't equipped to handle any significant wait times.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
I miss tributes to off shore drilling for oil and regional mythic elements presented as if they belong to one specific country and a documentary attached to a ride.

Hence why I'm baffled when people talk about it as though it was an all-time classic. Frozen Ever After isn't very good and shouldn't be there, but ideally there would be a different Norwegian ride in that location and an actually good Frozen ride somewhere in Fantasyland.
 

Sir_Cliff

Well-Known Member
Let's be honest, even Runaway Railway does a pretty lousy job disguising that most of its rooms are essentially soundstages. The flat cyclorama walls that have visual interest but abruptly fade to black at the ceiling are not sufficiently compensated for by the minimal set pieces and animatronics.

Despite some interesting figures, rich colors, and dynamic projections, it is almost always very clear you're in some sort of open showroom. This is not so apparent in on-ride videos of the attraction but is present in every major showscene within the ride outside of the train tunnel, projection dome, and the studio. Those are the only scenes that make the effort to fully envelop the guest, and still to varying degrees of success.

It makes it feel like the ride is the gut job it is - projection mapping the ceilings (or at least painting blacklight murals) would have gone SO far towards immersion in the cartoon world. Even something like Snow White's Scary Adventures never let you see the "edges" as clearly as Runaway Railway does. Railway is constructed pretty squarely with subject and backdrop with very little atmospheric scenery in between. I think Frozen frequently suffers these same ills, but at least they have those sparkling trees overhead in the beginning - SOMETHING infusing some atmosphere into the space between the Animatronics and the warehouse ceiling above.

But now I'm sure I've veered off topic.

*EDITED To Add: This may not be clear from this post, but I did have fun on Runaway Railway. I just don't think it hid its sins especially well.
I haven't been on RR so can't comment about how well it hides the fact it is in giant soundstage. For perspective's sake, though, this is what people are lamenting that it replaced:

The-Great-Movie-Ride_Full_30800.jpg
 

J4546

Well-Known Member
I love dinosaurs, but unfortunately Disney doesnt own Jurassic Park/World or The Land Before Time. Those are the 2 best Dino themed IPs imo and they are both Universal. I would love to see a complete redo of DinoLand but even then, would it measure up to Jurassic World at Universal a few miles away? Esp with their new coaster being built, that whole area looks great. Id rather they spend that money somewhere else but Id be happy either way
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
I haven't been on RR so can't comment about how well it hides the fact it is in giant soundstage. For perspective's sake, though, this is what people are lamenting that it replaced:

The-Great-Movie-Ride_Full_30800.jpg

That arguably fit the theme, though, since you were supposed to be exploring movies which were filmed on sound stages, and the whole park was at least somewhat built around that concept.

It's harder to make that argument with MMRR since you're supposed to be entering a cartoon world which (obviously) isn't filmed on a sound stage.
 
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yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
I haven't been on RR so can't comment about how well it hides the fact it is in giant soundstage. For perspective's sake, though, this is what people are lamenting that it replaced:

The-Great-Movie-Ride_Full_30800.jpg
For the record . . . that was part of the attraction's concept. That wasn't unthemed ceiling, it was mock-Hollywood Soundstage Grid:

1595898816714.png


Runaway Railway's ceiling is simply blacked out as a shortcut instead of actually theming it, it's not part of the attraction's concept. Unfortunately it's decidedly noticeable given that the attraction itself is generally bright and full of color, and the transition is so abrupt.
 
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UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
For the record . . . that was part of the attraction's concept. That wasn't unthemed ceiling, it was mock-Hollywood Soundstage Grid:

View attachment 487014

Runaway Railway's ceiling is simply blacked out as a shortcut instead of actually theming it, it's not part of the attraction's concept. Unfortunately it's decidedly noticeable given that the attraction itself is generally bright and full of color, and the transition is so abrupt.

I'm assuming you quoted my post about Galaxy's Edge by accident?
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
That arguably fit the theme, though, since you were supposed to be exploring movies which were filmed on sound stages, and the whole park was at least somewhat built around that concept.

It's harder to make that argument with MMRR since you're supposed to be entering a cartoon world which (obviously) isn't filmed on a sound stage.
In The Great Movie Ride you’ve entered the movies. It wasn’t just Daniel Day Lewis taking you hostage.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
In The Great Movie Ride you’ve entered the movies. It wasn’t just Daniel Day Lewis taking you hostage.

I agree with you -- even if that was their intention (as @yensidtlaw1969 mentioned above) I'm not sure it really works in the context of the ride.

It's at least an argument, though, whereas MMRR doesn't have a good reason (in-ride reason, that is) for black ceilings.
 

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