Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[GoofGoof]

This is a long read, but I think it sums up the feelings of many: https://mikerowe.com/2020/07/im-not-ignoring-covid/

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with Mike (or his faith in the opinions of Dr. Osterholm), but he is pretty eloquent about his views.

The main problem I have with the automobile accident analogy is that it’s a known. We have decades of data on accidents and we have a pretty good idea what major causes of accidents are. Billions of dollars are spent by auto manufacturers researching new technology to make cars safer. I feel like if Covid never goes away and a vaccine fails (like this guy predicts) that in a year or 5 from now we will have much more data, better treatments and the analogy would be more fitting. People get into cars every day because they know the risks and they accept that safety measures like air bags, seat belts and fancy new gadgets like lane departure warning systems will help mitigate the risk. There’s also a component in our control. How well we drive, staying alert and sober, following traffic laws and speed limits, etc. If a Jetson’s style flying car came out tomorrow but there were conflicting safety reports on it and no real knowledge of how safe it would be to fly around in a lot less people would hop in and take the risk.

Aside from that, I think he pretty much sums up how a lot of people feel.

• I’m low risk so when I get sick it’s no big deal
• A bunch of other people will die but that’s not my problem, its inevitable
• He acknowledged doing the bare minimum but even mentioned masks only in the context of wearing them around high risk people
• He denies any chance of the virus being effectively stopped using a vaccine or through anything other than herd immunity through infection. This is the standard “We should all go about our lives because we are all going to get it anyway” excuse.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Penguin, I wanted to mention that I appreciate your posting those charts, though "liking" them seems a bit glib.

It's also nice to be arguing on the same side of an issue with you for once, even if the issue is a little more serious then the current state of EPCOT!

Liking what Disney is or isn't doing is opinion, and we usually disagree. And it's about entertainment, which, in the grand scheme, isn't that important.

What's happening with COVID is factual (as best as can be ascertained). And the response should be based on scientific medicine (as best a the self-correcting methodology allows). There should be no disagreement about facts! And it's about life and death, which is important enough for all people to work together despite having other differences of opinion.

 

[MisterPenguin]

The main problem I have with the automobile accident analogy is that it’s a known.

Not to mention it's not likely to increase suddenly in an exponential curve.

 

[MisterPenguin]

BlogMickey had a post pointing out that Universal doesn't allow the face mask that have a exhalation valve since that's just basically a big hole in the mask. (Unless there's a filter? And if that's the case, why bother with an exhalation valve?)

Anyway, BlogMickey called on Disney to also disallow masks with exhalation valves.

And speaking of masks...

 

[kong1802]

The main problem I have with the automobile accident analogy is that it’s a known. We have decades of data on accidents and we have a pretty good idea what major causes of accidents are. Billions of dollars are spent by auto manufacturers researching new technology to make cars safer. I feel like if Covid never goes away and a vaccine fails (like this guy predicts) that in a year or 5 from now we will have much more data, better treatments and the analogy would be more fitting. People get into cars every day because they know the risks and they accept that safety measures like air bags, seat belts and fancy new gadgets like lane departure warning systems will help mitigate the risk. There’s also a component in our control. How well we drive, staying alert and sober, following traffic laws and speed limits, etc. If a Jetson’s style flying car came out tomorrow but there were conflicting safety reports on it and no real knowledge of how safe it would be to fly around in a lot less people would hop in and take the risk.

Aside from that, I think he pretty much sums up how a lot of people feel.

• I’m low risk so when I get sick it’s no big deal
• A bunch of other people will die but that’s not my problem, its inevitable
• He acknowledged doing the bare minimum but even mentioned masks only in the context of wearing them around high risk people
• He denies any chance of the virus being effectively stopped using a vaccine or through anything other than herd immunity through infection. This is the standard “We should all go about our lives because we are all going to get it anyway” excuse.

The car analogy is so lazy and tired.

As soon as I see it used, I have no choice but to disregard the author as they don't have an understanding of the situation.

It's sad. I hope he learns.

 

[Kevin_W]

Aside from that, I think he pretty much sums up how a lot of people feel.

• I’m low risk so when I get sick it’s no big deal
• A bunch of other people will die but that’s not my problem, its inevitable
• He acknowledged doing the bare minimum but even mentioned masks only in the context of wearing them around high risk people
• He denies any chance of the virus being effectively stopped using a vaccine or through anything other than herd immunity through infection. This is the standard “We should all go about our lives because we are all going to get it anyway” excuse.

Right, that was my point in sharing it. I think most would agree that Mike Rowe is a pretty sane, normal guy in a lot of regards and not some conspiracy wacko. If he can logically reach the conclusions he has, a lot of other people can as well.

@Casper Gutman , your posting a lot in this thread has made me wonder: any particular reason that you have a picture from the Maltese Falcon as your avatar? I vaguely recognized the picture, but had to do a Google image search to find out where it was from.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Right, that was my point in sharing it. I think most would agree that Mike Rowe is a pretty sane, normal guy in a lot of regards and not some conspiracy wacko. If he can logically reach the conclusions he has, a lot of other people can as well.

@Casper Gutman , your posting a lot in this thread has made me wonder: any particular reason that you have a picture from the Maltese Falcon as your avatar? I vaguely recognized the picture, but had to do a Google image search to find out where it was from.

Maltese Falcon is a masterpiece, one of those movies like Singin' in the Rain or Casablanca that you can have on in the background or watch again and again and get something out of it.

And I have no idea why my icon is a pompous, bloviating windbag. Probably just a coincidence. Although I do like talking to a man who likes to talk.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Maltese Falcon is a masterpiece, one of those movies like Singin' in the Rain or Casablanca that you can have on in the background or watch again and again and get something out of it.

And I have no idea why my icon is a pompous, bloviating windbag. Probably just a coincidence. Although I do like talking to a man who likes to talk.

I appreciate the insight that Casper brings to this discussion...

... but as I noted in a post a few weeks ago... I've started mentally reading his posts in the distinct voice and delivery of Sidney Greenstreet (the actor in the avatar). It always sounds funny when you do this.

 

[hopemax]

Right, that was my point in sharing it. I think most would agree that Mike Rowe is a pretty sane, normal guy in a lot of regards and not some conspiracy wacko. If he can logically reach the conclusions he has, a lot of other people can as well.

Except that Mike Rowe, has a persona to portray and protect as well. He has built a reputation and career around the persona of being a thoughtful, "everyman." The sane, middle-of-the-road position, surrounded by idiots on both sides. With favoritism to "hard workers that are usually ignored in society." The problem is that this implied "reasonable" position, can be a harmful one, when a situation requires swift, specific and/or decisive action, and the middle option is slower, varying, and less decisive. So sane and normal /= correct conclusions.

But if we are believing in Dr. Osterholm because Mike Rowe believes in him, here's his recent commentary about masks. Since at least one person on this forum has said that we should choose normalcy while mask usage remains unproven. The doctor's position: wear a mask, just don't expect it to be a magic bullet.

COMMENTARY: My views on cloth face coverings for the public for preventing COVID-19

www.cidrap.umn.edu

 

[hopemax]

At least one health department in Texas has reached it's tipping point. Patients will be evaluated for their chances of survival before being admitted. Patients deemed unlikely to survive, will be sent home. Death panels, indeed.

Survival potential will determine whether South Texas county hospital takes in COVID-19 patients

In a stunning admission of how dire the COVID-19 situation is in South Texas, the health authority for one border county on Tuesday announced they have formed an ethics committee that will screen a…

www.localsyr.com

"In a stunning admission of how dire the COVID-19 situation is in South Texas, the health authority for one border county on Tuesday announced the formation of an ethics committee that will screen all patients for survival potential and will send home those with low probabilities.

Starr County Health Authority Dr. Jose Vazquez said Starr County Memorial Hospital, the county’s only hospital, on Tuesday implemented an ethics committee and a triage committee to review all coronavirus patients as they come in to determine what type of life-saving equipment and treatment they would likely require and whether they would likely survive. Those deemed too fragile or sick or elderly will be advised to go home to loved ones, he said."

 

[Dizneykid]

This is a long read, but I think it sums up the feelings of many: https://mikerowe.com/2020/07/im-not-ignoring-covid/

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with Mike (or his faith in the opinions of Dr. Osterholm), but he is pretty eloquent about his views.

That was very well written. He made a perfect point that most of us need to accept some realities here. We can't all hide under rocks. We can't get rid of this with lockdowns or wishful thinking. We have discovered new ways to be careful and we need to adopt them NOW. Humans aren't meant to live like this. I don't care what anyone says. Living our lives as close to how we were within new habits and rules is not selfish or bad. I'm so sick of hearing that .

 

[Jrb1979]

That was very well written. He made a perfect point that most of us need to accept some realities here. We can't all hide under rocks. We can't get rid of this with lockdowns or wishful thinking. We have discovered new ways to be careful and we need to adopt them NOW. Humans aren't meant to live like this. I don't care what anyone says. Living our lives as close to how we were within new habits and rules is not selfish or bad. I'm so sick of hearing that .

Its why masks should be mandatory everywhere and fine businesses and anyone that doesn't comply.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

At least one health department in Texas has reached it's tipping point. Patients will be evaluated for their chances of survival before being admitted. Patients deemed unlikely to survive, will be sent home. Death panels, indeed.

Survival potential will determine whether South Texas county hospital takes in COVID-19 patients

In a stunning admission of how dire the COVID-19 situation is in South Texas, the health authority for one border county on Tuesday announced they have formed an ethics committee that will screen a…

www.localsyr.com

"In a stunning admission of how dire the COVID-19 situation is in South Texas, the health authority for one border county on Tuesday announced the formation of an ethics committee that will screen all patients for survival potential and will send home those with low probabilities.

Starr County Health Authority Dr. Jose Vazquez said Starr County Memorial Hospital, the county’s only hospital, on Tuesday implemented an ethics committee and a triage committee to review all coronavirus patients as they come in to determine what type of life-saving equipment and treatment they would likely require and whether they would likely survive. Those deemed too fragile or sick or elderly will be advised to go home to loved ones, he said."

Umm... isn’t this what we were trying to avoid in this country?

 

[Kevin_W]

At least one health department in Texas has reached it's tipping point. Patients will be evaluated for their chances of survival before being admitted. Patients deemed unlikely to survive, will be sent home. Death panels, indeed.

While that is certainly bad news, it I was a patient that was sent home I think I'd try my luck at a different hospital. (Cars these days can drive quite a far distance these days!)

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

While that is certainly bad news, it I was a patient that was sent home I think I'd try my luck at a different hospital. (Cars these days can drive quite a far distance these days!)

There are these things called ambulances that can transport people as well. And yet... here we are, with a hospital preparing to turn away people.

 

[Dizneykid]

Its why masks should be mandatory everywhere and fine businesses and anyone that doesn't comply.

I don't have a problem with that as long as we all understand that Disney counts as a business. Did I miss someone who opposes masks? Fine 'em. I don't care.

I think people who refuse to wear masks are annoying. I thought we all did. I think people who harrass others about it are annoying too.

I resent those who think trying to have fun and safely resume a life are selfish. I don't listen to that noise. Quality of life matters which is why masks are the way forward.

 

[SamusAranX]

Its why masks should be mandatory everywhere and fine businesses and anyone that doesn't comply.

Please let this happen.
And I think people are misunderstanding his comparison to car accidents; he was using it to show how the media can overreport in a way and rather then accepting that this is happening and we need to take precautions, some people lose balance. That goes both ways.
We shouldn’t have to lockdown, but people need to realize the statistics, and do what they can to mitigate it. Wear a mask, wash hands, no big groups etc. it’s the people not listening that’s driving this.
And for anyone who doubts the media can be irresponsible in their role of “fear mongering”, people have yet to experience hurricane coverage in Florida. Our local anchors are level headed, acknowledging that there will be bad consequences, but also help us not to panic and tell us what practical measures we can do to keep safe. Then you turn on the weather channel or cnn and think that the apocalypse has descended on Florida.

 

[GoofGoof]

That was very well written. He made a perfect point that most of us need to accept some realities here. We can't all hide under rocks. We can't get rid of this with lockdowns or wishful thinking. We have discovered new ways to be careful and we need to adopt them NOW. Humans aren't meant to live like this. I don't care what anyone says. Living our lives as close to how we were within new habits and rules is not selfish or bad. I'm so sick of hearing that .

I don’t think you will find very many people here who disagree with any of this. I don’t think anyone wants this situation or the lock downs or the destruction of the economy or the sickness and death. We definitely can’t get rid of this with wishful thinking. I do see a lot of that where people cling to the hope that somehow this all goes away if we just ignore it. That won’t happen. I think most of us agree that we should be able to go about our lives and do most of what we could before with new rules and safety measures implemented. I don’t think many people think it’s selfish or bad to continue to live life while following new rules. I also think most of us agree that continuing to live life while ignoring new rules or safety measures is selfish and bad. The number of people who are advocating for an indefinite return to stay at home orders is very, very small, about as small as the number advocating full openings with no rules.

Where the grey area comes in is what the “new rules” should be and what activities (if any) should be curtailed or completely eliminated.

• Although many people say they wear masks anyway they oppose the rules. That’s fine, but it leads to the disagreements you see a lot. I support a full mask requirement for everyone in public but for someone opposed to mask rules they feel I’m shaming them or calling them out when they see it as their “right to live life without restrictions” and not wear the mask. Then you get into the whole science around whether they work. I’ll be honest, I don’t need to see a scientific study, it’s a small sacrifice and worth it 100% even if it turns out down the road we discover that masks did nothing. We won’t know that for a long time so better safe than sorry.
• Another disagreement usually stems around large parties and gatherings. I don’t think we should be doing large parties, especially indoors without distancing and masks. Some people disagree and think that’s fine to do, just living their life.
• Indoor dining and bars are a hot topic. I think we should have much more consistent rules limiting indoor dining and eliminating bars completely for now. Many disagree, again say they are just living their lives.
• Theme parks are another example. People are split on whether they should be open.

The reason I laid out all these scenarios is to show that we don’t all disagree on the fundamental idea that we should be trying our best to do as much as possible while staying safe. Where we disagree is which safety measures should be in place and which activities should be curtailed. It’s not that one side wants to hide under a rock and the other wants to pretend the virus doesn’t exist, we are mostly all closer to agreeing then we realize. The devil is in the details. The “we” in all this isn’t me and you specifically, but the group in general.

I do agree that this virus is going to be with us for a while. I don’t think that should change our action one way or another. I do feel there’s this narrative that this guy is pushing that a vaccine can’t possibly work then that means we will all get sick eventually and the sickness and death is inevitable. If that turns out to be true so be it, but the truth is we don’t know if that’s the case. A vaccine could work and be ready by early next year. So if we hold the line, stay disciplined and have some self restraint and give up a few of our favorite things for the greater good between now and then we could save a lot of people from dying. If it turns out the vaccine fails and the only way to herd immunity is mass infection then we can take the restraints off and go for it then. It seems premature to jump to the conclusion today that vaccines and/or better treatments won’t come along and be effective. Premature, but self serving if you want to justify certain actions.

 

[oceanbreeze77]

Umm... isn’t this what we were trying to avoid in this country?

I say it again and again...but some people will not be convinced there is a problem until bodies are lying on the floor in the hallway.

 

[Phil12]