The fallacy of overcrowded parks......

[Animaniac93-98]

I feel an urge to pick at that some.

That 25% needs much more context:

Height requirements, physical/physiological psychological impediments and sheer ignorance of the attraction's importance must be accounted for that 25% to be meaningful.

You think Space Mountain can handle 50,000 visitors a day?

When people continuously compare two options and state that A) is superior and B) is riddled with X problems, I always wonder why those people even bother with B at all. A is clearly their choice and makes them happy so why not stick with it rather than go to B and complain later?

Life's too short and the world far too big to vacation in places that make one miserable.

Heaven forbid people discuss things on a discussion board.

Or have concerns about the money they spend/are asked to pay for a service or product.

 

[LaughingGravy]

T

how are they screwed? ok, let me back that up. what do you define as "screwed"? not getting into cinderella's castle?? well then yes I agree with you. Not being able to get a decent meal. bulll. again reading is your friend. a simple "where to eat at disney" will tell you what to do if you don't have an adr. I've never ever not been able to get a sit down meal at the last minute. Now again let me give a caveat. I don't go during July or Christmas so it's definitely depends on the time.

Sorry flynnibus you are the reason that lie perpetuates. YOU absolutely can get a decent meal at the 11th hour. you are in no way "screwed". I would think anyone with a modicum of common sense who has travel one iota could figure out that if you want to eat with princesses you need adr's. that is not a "peculiarity".

They are absolutely screwed because table services are effectively booked/filled and counter services are overly crowded, while still being not fully staffed. There's only so much time in the day and waiting for an extensive period of time to get food and to pay out the wazoo for it on top of it is incredibly annoying and disheartening.
As for the popular attraction aspect, the same situation, and it makes it even worse with this time of year (basically from now into January) where they have so many up charge/close the park early/still charge you full price for admission events.
Ito comes back down to the concept of expecting a premium experience for the premium price without the need to do a boatload of research and what has really become internet sleuthing on best practices/tips in order to get at the very least, VALUE, for the lot of money.
The Disney brand and reputation and extra oomph used to be included. Now it is stripped down significantly, even in the aspects that used to be standard such as cleanliness compared to other parks. It's not just that the likes of Uni have stepped up their game. It's that while they have done it, WDW has let theirs drop for no good reason other than money grabs, including the resort parking fees.
There are many threads about what the last straw is/will be/was to make you stop going.
For me, it's not necessarily stopping going ever, but the willingness to plop down the extra $ to stay on site happened when they instituted the parking fees.
On a previous business trip, for a convention at Marriott World Center, our company had a booth and I was manning it. It was cheaper for me to stay off site from the Marriott ( even with the convention discount) and have park tix at a value with the parking. It meant I could do what I needed to do for the job and still get into the park(s) in the evenings even if for a couple or few hours. I made the extra effort and the company didn't mind because it wasn't costing them. With the parking fees and increase in price, for this recent trip, I couldn't come close to justifying it. The end price was $32 less per day and I ate at the Marriott for every meal, which was not inexpensive.

 

[PixarPerfect]

Heaven forbid people discuss things on a discussion board.

Or have concerns about the money they spend/are asked to pay for a service or product.

Never said discussion is bad, but there have been many posts singing Disneyland's praises while bashing Disney World. Why not go to Disneyland if it makes you happy and ticks all your vacation boxes? Skip Disney World altogether if it stresses your vacation? It seems like a straight-forward solution.

There's an old saying that seems to apply to the above. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

 

[lazyboy97o]

lol, none because no one gives a rats patooie about how the quick services operate. Most normal guest at the parks want to know where they can get a meal.

Do people not eat meals at the quick service venues? How they operate impacts where people can get a meal and the experience of getting that meal. Happy customers not standing in an artificially inflated line for quick service food can be doing other things like buying souvenirs.

Next you're going to tell me that people don't know that at a theme park at 12 noon the fast service places are going to be crowded.

So that justifies closing or reducing venues to make those crowds bigger?

 

[LaughingGravy]

No I think it's more of why is Disney responsible for how much someone knows or not knows about their vacation? I could be wrong about that, but I read it as, people are mad because they didn't do anything to plan and are mad at Disney because they don't operate like every other place.

I don't know how other Disney parks operate so can't say of the Orlando park is harder

The Orlando park experience is much harder than Disneyland. Even the term "park hopper" is a misnomer with how long it takes to leave one and go to another in FL. If they were all open equally as long for the extra distance and time it takes, I could see it.
Disney should be offering the premium experience that it used to, especially for the mass % increase in price overall in every aspect.

 

[flynnibus]

When people continuously compare two options and state that A) is superior and B) is riddled with X problems, I always wonder why those people even bother with B at all. A is clearly their choice and makes them happy so why not stick with it rather than go to B and complain later?

Life's too short and the world far too big to vacation in places that make one miserable.

Another deflection... you keep making up strawmen rather than discuss the items raised. The whole reason this tangent is ongoing is because people are telling dismissive tales that dont match reality. Its not people moaning about the horrible vacations they keep repeating - its responding to posts like yours that do not accurately represent reality.

 

[Chi84]

Which website tells people the days they should make a dining reservation because the quick service venues will be operating at reduced capacity so that there are half hour plus queues to order with similar waits for the food afterwards?

Are you talking about lines at the busiest times of the year? We just back from a week at WDW and we didn't see any long lines at the quick service locations - at least not at CHH, Pecos Bill's, Flame Tree, Pizzafari or Backlot Express. We don't actually stand in the lines because we mobile order but it didn't look like any of them had a half-hour wait. The same was true of our May trip. Maybe we eat at places or times that are less popular, but we never experienced waits of a half-hour to order and then another half-hour waiting for food.

 

[xdan0920]

lol, none because no one gives a rats patooie about how the quick services operate. Most normal guest at the parks want to know where they can get a meal.

But in the interest of fun. I found this article in exactly 12 secs
https://disney.urbantastebud.com/best-disney-restaurants-without-a-reservation/


Just remember though, this is Disney World, and no matter how empty the restaurant or park, in general, might be, you will probably have to wait. It could be only 3 minutes, but still, it beats out not eating there in the first place.

Now in the interest of full disclosure, yes I did have to actually spend 2 minutes and read. which evidently people planning trips seem to not want to do.

I'm now realizing that it's not actually Disney, it's that we've become the humans from "walle". we (general use) just want to show up in a lounge chair and have every thing brought to us. Next you're going to tell me that people don't know that at a theme park at 12 noon the fast service places are going to be crowded. SMH.

ok I'm out because this is just mind boggling. I'm really starting to wonder how folks even made it to Disneyworld. seriously.

Please god. Be out.

 

[flynnibus]

how are they screwed? ok, let me back that up. what do you define as "screwed"?

When your average group of four has to make multiple efforts to find a meal at a decent time... or must settle for counter service when they wanted a sit down meal.

And not by leaving the park.... traveling an hour, etc.

Its as if you all are insisting all these trip reports of rookies completely being frustrated at disney are complete fabrications... and no one ever has trouble finding a meal they want, when they want.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Are you talking about lines at the busiest times of the year? We just back from a week at WDW and we didn't see any long lines at the quick service locations - at least not at CHH, Pecos Bill's, Flame Tree, Pizzafari or Backlot Express. We don't actually stand in the lines because we mobile order but it didn't look like any of them had a half-hour wait. The same was true of our May trip. Maybe we eat at places or times that are less popular, but we never experienced waits of a half-hour to order and then another half-hour waiting for food.

No, I’m not talking about the busiest times of year. I’m talking about slower times when counter service facilities will be operating at reduced capacity to create lines. Even at the busiest times of year, the Magic Kingdom still has less quick service capacity than it did 30 years ago when it was less attended.

 

[Chi84]

No, I’m not talking about the busiest times of year. I’m talking about slower times when counter service facilities will be operating at reduced capacity to create lines. Even at the busiest times of year, the Magic Kingdom still has less quick service capacity than it did 30 years ago when it was less attended.

Well, I don't think all the registers are manned when we are there, usually in May, October and sometimes a third trip in November, but I've never seen the kind of lines you are describing. Again, that's just our own experience.
Also, when we mobile order we have never waited more than 5 minutes after hitting the "we are here" button.

 

[PixarPerfect]

Another deflection... you keep making up strawmen rather than discuss the items raised. The whole reason this tangent is ongoing is because people are telling dismissive tales that dont match reality. Its not people moaning about the horrible vacations they keep repeating - its responding to posts like yours that do not accurately represent reality.

Each time you accuse me of strawman responses I think you sure are getting your word of the day calendar money's worth, lol. It's a popular accusation on this forum and a particular favorite of yours, I've noticed.

Had you read what I've written you'll see that I have answered your questions. This is a summary of my comments:

1. I do not find Disney an overly complicated travel process. It's basically pick park, then, if desired, book restaurants and rides in advance. It's really not that hard.
2. Suggesting that it's Disney's fault that someone could show up at a park with zero knowledge of the above is ridiculous. They have enough info on the site under dining options, rides, etc. Clicking through the Disney site itself shows that there is much to do and, for anyone with half a brain, that prioritizing the most desirable options ahead of time makes sense. If someone takes the extra step and stays at a Disney property, there are notices showing when to book each. Anyone spending that much money on a vacation should invest a little time prepping or accept that there may be speed bumps and disappointments on the day.
3. Visiting Disney World is a popular online topic. There are countless easily accessed and discovered online tools covering everything from where to stay, where to eat, and what to see and do (with tips for all), not to mention shelves worth of travel books solely focused on Disney World.
3. Not too many people hop on a plane to a destination without doing a little research first. If for no other reason, they need to know where they're staying after disembarking the plane. For those few people who wing their trips, they can still have a Disney World vacation and experience much of the Parks. The only difference in that situation is that they may not get into any restaurant they want or avoid longer ride lines.
4. Anyone who loves Disneyland and has issues with Disney World should probably stick to Disneyland. It makes them happy.

 

[Shouldigo12]

I think this all really just comes down to a difference in personality. Just like planning, there are going to be people overjoyed at putting so much time into planning out the details and making reservations (like myself) and people who hate every second of it. Likewise, there are people who wouldn't dream of visiting the restaurant down the road without reading detailed reviews (also myself) and those who want to go vacations that require as little research as possible. I can completely understand why someone in the latter group would be frustrated trying to plan to Disney and realizing they're probably going to spend a good amount of time reading restaurant reviews and guides on how to maximize your FPs, or, even worse, just booking the trip and only realizing these things are necessary once they get there.

That said though, I stand by my opinion that there has to be some accountability for your own happiness. If you don't want to have know every little thing about the place you're visiting, that's valid. But it's unfair to go to a place that requires a good bit of knowledge about the services offered and how they work and then blame them because you don't want to have to know those things.

In short: if you don't want to have to research your vacation spots, I get it, but the fact is that there are times where that's going to leave you unprepared for the realities of vacationing there and the responsibility for that falls on you.

 

[lazyboy97o]

That said though, I stand by my opinion that there has to be some accountability for your own happiness. If you don't want to have know every little thing about the place you're visiting, that's valid. But it's unfair to go to a place that requires a good bit of knowledge about the services offered and how they work and then blame them because you don't want to have to know those things.

How is an individual accountable for empty attraction, dining and retail space at the world’s busiest theme park?

 

[Shouldigo12]

How is an individual accountable for empty attraction, dining and retail space at the world’s busiest theme park?

What? Where was I even talking about empty attractions in my post?

 

[Mickeyboof]

Im actually 100% in the camp that people SHOULD be able to visit a Disney park without knowing 99% of what’s there. Maybe they know there’s a scary roller coaster in the dark called Star Mountain, or a spooky ride called Haunted House. They’ve heard friends and family rave over yummy foods like turkey legs and churros! So hey, let’s pack the car and go to Disney!! Let’s go on vacation.

My first trip to Disneyland, I knew there was a hunted mansion and a pirates of the Caribbean boat ride.

That. Is. It. And it was INCREDIBLE. I went in the peak of summer, enjoyed the place so throughly. So much so, I decided let’s do Disney World next!

A theme park shouldn’t need to be studied. A theme park is entertainment. Studying it to the bone is like seeing a broadway musical where you have to read a synopsis in the playbill to understand what the hell is going on (a la the original Spider-Man musical).

You SHOULD be able to roll up and enjoy your day. That’s how Disney parks were originally designed. That’s how Disneyland, Disneyland Paris, Disneyland Shanghai, Hong Kong Disneyland AND Tokyo Disneyland function still to this day.

But then there’s Disney World, where soulless unhappy people who get excited about excel spreadsheets decided to rip SPONTANEITY and ANY sense of exploration from their world famous parks JUST SO they can profit an extra billion a year.

My Disney Experience is DATA POOL that works AGAINST the consumer.

The prices go up. The planning increases (which ABSOLUTELY backfired at Disneyland when they made the guests PLAN their Star Wars experience). The quality goes down BECAUSE of the data gathered.

A theme park should never be compared to a month long safari in Africa. That’s something else entirely. A theme park you SHOULD be able to book your hotel, buy some tickets, and immerse yourself in Disney Magic.

It should be simple, joyous, mischievous and exploratory.

 

[Dad 2 M & M]

There was nothing unfinished about it. It’s an attraction known for commanding consistent demand and it is only able to be experienced by a surprisingly small fraction of guests. You thought you had a “gotcha” instead of thinking through why it was noted.

I'd agree with the "surprisingly small fraction of guests". Question would be, what fraction? 25% seemed way to high, but I wonder what the % would be? My guess would be 10% give or take......

 

[Chi84]

I think this all really just comes down to a difference in personality. Just like planning, there are going to be people overjoyed at putting so much time into planning out the details and making reservations (like myself) and people who hate every second of it. Likewise, there are people who wouldn't dream of visiting the restaurant down the road without reading detailed reviews (also myself) and those who want to go vacations that require as little research as possible. I can completely understand why someone in the latter group would be frustrated trying to plan to Disney and realizing they're probably going to spend a good amount of time reading restaurant reviews and guides on how to maximize your FPs, or, even worse, just booking the trip and only realizing these things are necessary once they get there.

That said though, I stand by my opinion that there has to be some accountability for your own happiness. If you don't want to have know every little thing about the place you're visiting, that's valid. But it's unfair to go to a place that requires a good bit of knowledge about the services offered and how they work and then blame them because you don't want to have to know those things.

In short: if you don't want to have to research your vacation spots, I get it, but the fact is that there are times where that's going to leave you unprepared for the realities of vacationing there and the responsibility for that falls on you.

I completely agree. We have been taking trips to WDW pretty much every year since 1984 and there has been a world of change in how much planning is involved now versus then. At my age, it comes down to whether I want to be open to the changes and new technology and learn to deal with them or turn into someone complaining bitterly about how much better things "used to be."
When the current form of Fastpasses was introduced, I didn't like it because it forced me to decide months in advance what park I would visit on a particular day regardless of Florida's unpredictable weather. But it allows us to get Fastpasses for the most popular attractions without having to be in the park early before they are gone. We always visited Epcot in the evenings, and until Fastpass+, we never rode Soarin' or Test Track because all the passes had already been distributed by the time we got there. We are not rope drop people, we don't do the same ride multiple times and we absolutely hate lines. So the new system works well for us. Also, apart from the newest attractions, we have found it fairly easy to get the rides we want, even at the last minute.
We use mobile ordering to avoid standing in lines at quick service locations. Even when there are six of us, it's no problem to find a place to rest for a few minutes, figure out what everyone wants, and then just click the "prepare our order" button when we get there. Never waited more than five minutes for our order after clicking the button, although that may change as more people start using the service.
We loved the new Skyliner - I hope they can work out the bugs and expand the system if possible.
Are there things I don't like? Sure. I hate paying for parking at certain resorts where parking spaces are plentiful. I absolutely hate Disney's decision to sell the park "after hours" - both that and the parking fees seem like money grabs to me. We have been able to afford the price increases, but I worry about the impact on young families, who may never be able to visit. Our kids and their spouses go with us every second year in May, but that's because we bought into DVC early - there's no way we would pay the almost $10,000 cost of three studios at Saratoga Springs.
You can go to Disney without planning - I know people who have done so - and still have a good time. You won't get as much out of it as the people on these boards, but if you don't do the research, you probably won't know what you're missing. My brother-in-law called me three days before they went on an impromptu trip to Disney (my sister-in-law had some kind of work trip to Florida) and asked me how to get a Fastpass to "the tower of terrors." He didn't know what park it was in and had never heard of MDE. They got along just fine and enjoyed their two days in the parks.

 

[NCO91590]

What? Where was I even talking about empty attractions in my post?

I think what the argument is, is that Disney artificially creates unnecessarily high crowd levels, wait times, maxed out restaurants because they are understaffed or under-utilizing space ie: "seasonal" QS locations as an example. This allows them to sell extra magic hours, dessert parties etc as a way for people to feel like they're getting exclusive access away from all the crowds.

You can go to Disney without planning - I know people who have done so - and still have a good time. You won't get as much out of it as the people on these boards, but if you don't do the research, you probably won't know what you're missing. My brother-in-law called me three days before they went on an impromptu trip to Disney (my sister-in-law had some kind of work trip to Florida) and asked me how to get a Fastpass to "the tower of terrors." He didn't know what park it was in and had never heard of MDE. They got along just fine and enjoyed their two days in the parks.

I had friends that said they were going to WDW for 2 days spur of the moment. I tried to give them advice on how to manage it. They said "oh we'll be fine" and they HATED it. Hated every second of being there, waited in lines all day, thought the food sucked and couldn't understand why it's so popular. But in my opinion, they did it wrong. That's why they hated it.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I'd agree with the "surprisingly small fraction of guests". Question would be, what fraction? 25% seemed way to high, but I wonder what the % would be? My guess would be 10% give or take......

You can search Eddie’s posts and find the exact number. It isn’t important. The point is that no attraction can handle every visitor. This idea that capacity is sufficient because some people have figured out the crowd flows and obsessive planning tricks to keep doing exactly what they already know what they want to do is based only on very narrow personal preference.