The fallacy of overcrowded parks......

[PixarPerfect]

I'm amazed by the suggestion that people will spend thousands of dollars on a vacation without knowing anything about the place first. That they'll show up without spending any time looking at what there is to do or where to eat before arrival.

Wandering around Paris is not the same as being in a concentrated, fenced-in location with tens of thousands of people who are all competing for the same limited entertainment and dining options.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I'm going to venture a guess that even if someone has not been to WDW before, they would have an idea of what rides they want to go on and what character meals they would want to experience. Although it's possible that some people just show up at the gates the day of and don't think a thing about it, I think the internet makes it pretty easy to get the lay of the land. Otherwise there wouldn't be a million planning websites.

I'm not suggesting that people don't want to explore and try new things. I'm just saying that just adding new rides and restaurants isn't going to make everyone abandon what they want to do. You can make a million Hall of Presidents, but people are going to want the Splash Mountain...KWIM?

There are a million planning websites because planning is overly complicated and in very large part due to the lack of capacity. That there are marquee attractions does not in any way negate the need for capacity beyond those marquee experiences. Not everyone has the same priorities and greater variety allows people to spread out to those different experiences that they prioritize. Eddie Sotto once shared here that only something like 25% of guests experienced Space Mountain on any given day. That statistic was old even when Eddie shared it a few years ago but it is incredibly revealing. Space Mountain has always been a very popular marquee attraction on many people’s must do lists, but attractions have their own limits of capacity and there is greater variety of interests in the park.

Logically, that percentage of guests riding Space Mountain must have actually decreased as the number of people visiting has increased but the attraction’s capacity has remained the same (or even decreased due to continually deferred maintenance). So if a smaller percentage of people are able to ride any given day, which is really better 1) provide people with an alternate experience or 2) make people scramble for a reservation months in advance? This ridiculous choice also now extends more and more to experiences that would not be considered marquees.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I'm amazed by the suggestion that people will spend thousands of dollars on a vacation without knowing anything about the place first. That they'll show up without spending any time looking at what there is to do or where to eat before arrival.

Wandering around Paris is not the same as being in a concentrated, fenced-in location with tens of thousands of people who are all competing for the same limited entertainment and dining options.

You really don’t see the difference between knowing what there is and months of meticulous planning?

 

[PixarPerfect]

You really don’t see the difference between knowing what there is and months of meticulous planning?

I don't see how someone could show up knowing nothing, which is what has been suggested here.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I don't see how someone could show up knowing nothing, which is what has been suggested here.

Maybe they’ve been to any of the Disneylands and got a “wrong“ impression of a Disney theme park visit?

 

[flynnibus]

I don't see how someone could show up knowing nothing, which is what has been suggested here.

No, that's hyperboyle and a strawman. 'knowing nothing' and 'being surpised because disney operates differently than conventions people have been conditioned to assume' are wildly different.

 

[eliza61nyc]

No, that's hyperboyle and a strawman. 'knowing nothing' and 'being surpised because disney operates differently than conventions people have been conditioned to assume' are wildly different.

No I think it's more of why is Disney responsible for how much someone knows or not knows about their vacation? I could be wrong about that, but I read it as, people are mad because they didn't do anything to plan and are mad at Disney because they don't operate like every other place.

I don't know how other Disney parks operate so can't say of the Orlando park is harder

 

[PixarPerfect]

'knowing nothing' and 'being surpised because disney operates differently than conventions people have been conditioned to assume' are wildly different.

Yes, but if you read my other posts I've said that researching a trip ahead of time, even months ahead, is hardly unique to Disney. Travel is fun but one does learn that investing in a little prep in the early stages helps minimize disappointment and wasted time while on vacation.

 

[flynnibus]

Yes, but if you read my other posts I've said that researching a trip ahead of time, even months ahead, is hardly unique to Disney. Travel is fun but one does learn that investing in a little prep in the early stages helps minimize disappointment and wasted time while on vacation.

Hence why your strawman and hyperbole are completely off base and only serve to be dismissive. Yes, planning ahead is not a Disney-unique concept -- but Disney planning is an entirely different level, with lots of Disney-unique things. What people are used to doing to be sufficient at other destinations will not be enough at Disney. And the way most people learn that is the hard way... because Disney doesn't want to make it seem bad and warn you.

 

[flynnibus]

No I think it's more of why is Disney responsible for how much someone knows or not knows about their vacation? I could be wrong about that, but I read it as, people are mad because they didn't do anything to plan and are mad at Disney because they don't operate like every other place.

I simply point you back to my earlier 'Disney Difference...' post - https://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/the-fallacy-of-overcrowded-parks.961377/post-8944821

I don't know how other Disney parks operate so can't say of the Orlando park is harder

WDW is night and day from the other Disney parks... because the other parks don't do FP+, they don't do 180 ADRs, they aren't spread out over 40+sq miles... you don't have 6,000 different season/hotel booking combinations... etc etc etc.

It is possible to just show up at Disneyland. Worst thing that will happen is you pick a bad crowd day, or didn't understand if you wanted park hoppers, or not know when the nighttime entertainment runs or not.

ETA: Yes, Disneyland has early closures.. or things like special filming/events... but they are a fraction of the time that WDW does them.

 

[lazyboy97o]

No I think it's more of why is Disney responsible for how much someone knows or not knows about their vacation? I could be wrong about that, but I read it as, people are mad because they didn't do anything to plan and are mad at Disney because they don't operate like every other place.

I don't know how other Disney parks operate so can't say of the Orlando park is harder

Disney is responsible for reducing and straining capacity such that planning is overwhelmingly necessary. Why does the world’s busiest theme park have closed restaurants or empty attraction space? There is even abandoned gift shop space!

 

[tirian]

I’ve mentioned the problems with predictive scheduling many times, and I’ve had people argue with me that it’s just not true despite my deep knowledge of the system’s intentions.

Here’s a link to something I wrote a few months ago. The gist is that FP+ has affected CM staffing numbers, attraction loading procedures, and even open quick service stations to ensure there’s always a line, even on days with low attendance.

News - Tron coaster coming to the Magic Kingdom

forums.wdwmagic.com

Back during the development of FP+, a pencil pusher decided guests are satisfied if they get to do 8 things a day. This was when a five-day park hopper was about $275.

I don’t understand why Disney would think it’s better to force guests to stand in queues instead of allowing them to have pleasant days during slower times of the year, but someone up high decided to increase profits by charging more and staffing less.

Edit: Also, here’s another link where I explain how Ops have generally used FP+ to hold standby queues even on attractions that should merge. You can also see a few users accusing me of being wrong because they saw a CM merging everyone. It’s true that more seasoned CMs will properly merge guests to keep queues moving, which is the way the system used to work years ago. But under FP+, the official SOP — and the one that most CPs innocently follow because they’re supposed to — is to split Standby and FP+ and keep them that way.

Combined with the silly tier systems at Epcot and the Studios, plus the closed restaurants and registers, plus the events Disney keeps marketing — the parks always feel crowded, despite the hard numbers that say attendance is actually lower.

News - Big changes coming to EPCOT's Future World?

So.... just the parts then that have the things which are not load and unload. There's a whole building sticking out with those computerized time wasters and a lounge atop of it. That's surely not load/unload? Wonder if they've thought about switching the exit and entrance? Although it's very...

forums.wdwmagic.com

 

[lazyboy97o]

Back during the development of FP+, a pencil pusher decided guests are satisfied if they get to do 8 things a day. This was when a five-day park hopper was about $275.

That number actually goes back to the mid-90s and the scapegoating that blamed Euro Disneyland itself for the problems of the much larger venture. Disney’s Animal Kingdom, Disney’s California Adventure, Walt Disney Studios Park and Hong Kong Disneyland were all built around offering just about that many experiences, and all have since needed billions in additional investment. Large chunks of Epcot were also allowed to be shuttered to align more with this number and is also now requiring billions to demolish more than add.

 

[tirian]

No I think it's more of why is Disney responsible for how much someone knows or not knows about their vacation? I could be wrong about that, but I read it as, people are mad because they didn't do anything to plan and are mad at Disney because they don't operate like every other place.

I don't know how other Disney parks operate so can't say of the Orlando park is harder

Yes, but if you read my other posts I've said that researching a trip ahead of time, even months ahead, is hardly unique to Disney. Travel is fun but one does learn that investing in a little prep in the early stages helps minimize disappointment and wasted time while on vacation.

FP+ was supposed to imitate a cruise environment in which everything was scheduled in advance. The entire NextGen initiative was supposed to be replicated at every Disney-owned resort around the world.

It wasn’t. Including the testing periods, NextGen has existed for a decade and has not been repeated anywhere else.

The reasons are too complicated to list here without repeating what I said (and linked to) in my post up above this one.

 

[tirian]

That number actually goes back to the mid-90s and the scapegoating that blamed Euro Disneyland itself for the problems of the much larger venture. Disney’s Animal Kingdom, Disney’s California Adventure, Walt Disney Studios Park and Hong Kong Disneyland were all built around offering just about that many experiences, and all have since needed billions in additional investment. Large chunks of Epcot were also allowed to be shuttered to align more with this number and is also now requiring billions to demolish more than add.

Wow, I didn’t know the number was that old! It was the goal they kept telling us in 2008–2009.

@lazyboy97o I do need to clarify I was not part of the NextGen developers. At the time, any CM from any department in Florida could sign up to be part of training and development teams, and I did that.

 

[PixarPerfect]

Hence why your strawman and hyperbole are completely off base and only serve to be dismissive. Yes, planning ahead is not a Disney-unique concept -- but Disney planning is an entirely different level, with lots of Disney-unique things. What people are used to doing to be sufficient at other destinations will not be enough at Disney. And the way most people learn that is the hard way... because Disney doesn't want to make it seem bad and warn you.

I don't know, I've planned trips to many, many countries, including over a month-long African safari across the continent. Disney's a piece of cake in comparison to most big trips people take because there is so much info online. All Disney trips really require are for one to:

1. Pick a park. If one wants to move around on PH, then fine, but a good % of visitors pick a single park. Each park's hours are posted within the timeframe for steps 2&3.
2. Book restaurant times in the park that you want for each day if that's important to you. This is no different from making reservations anywhere else in the world. This is not required - there are plenty of QS options.
3. Book FP+ for the rides you most want to ride each day. Again, plenty of info including video POVs for all the rides. Also not required. This is just for FP+ to cut down on wait times. Standing in line is always an option.

It's not that hard.

 

[flynnibus]

I don't know, I've planned trips to many, many countries, including over a month-long African safari across the continent. Disney's a piece of cake in comparison to most big trips people take because there is so much info online. All Disney trips really require are for one to:

1. Pick a park. If one wants to move around on PH, then fine, but a good % of visitors pick a single park. Each park's hours are posted within the timeframe for steps 2&3.
2. Book restaurant times in the park that you want for each day if that's important to you. This is no different from making reservations anywhere else in the world. This is not required - there are plenty of QS options.
3. Book FP+ for the rides you most want to ride each day. Again, plenty of info including video POVs for all the rides. Also not required. This is just for FP+ to cut down on wait times. Standing in line is always an option.

It's not that hard.

Now rate that person's resulting experience vs a person who
- Knew which park to be at to avoid the crowds for that day
- Knew a touring pattern to avoid the worse lines
- Knew that to actually see that show you saw in the times guide you better be there 45mins early to get a good spot
- Knew that if you didn't want to eat off a tray you had better make reservations well in advance
- Knew that if you'd want to have these MDE profiles set up on your devices if you wanted the same info access everyone else has
- Knew which park really should be 1 vs multiple days
- Knew what things outside of the main parks were worthy detours
- Actually knew which food venues didn't suck
- Had the details to know actual costs to budget for
- Knew things like resort delivery was a thing
- Knew things like 'what transportation option should I take'
- Knew things like 'mickey doesn't just show up like you saw in photos.. you have to go and wait in line at town hall to see him'

Yes, you can just buy a ticket and goto WDW... but your experience would be a fraction of what it should be because you're behind so many others who did put in the time and you suffer at their expense.

 

[PixarPerfect]

Now rate that person's resulting experience vs a person who
- Knew which park to be at to avoid the crowds for that day
- Knew a touring pattern to avoid the worse lines
- Knew that to actually see that show you saw in the times guide you better be there 45mins early to get a good spot
- Knew that if you didn't want to eat off a tray you had better make reservations well in advance
- Knew that if you'd want to have these MDE profiles set up on your devices if you wanted the same info access everyone else has
- Knew which park really should be 1 vs multiple days
- Knew what things outside of the main parks were worthy detours
- Actually knew which food venues didn't suck
- Had the details to know actual costs to budget for
- Knew things like resort delivery was a thing
- Knew things like 'what transportation option should I take'
- Knew things like 'mickey doesn't just show up like you saw in photos.. you have to go and wait in line at town hall to see him'

Yes, you can just buy a ticket and goto WDW... but your experience would be a fraction of what it should be because you're behind so many others who did put in the time and you suffer at their expense.

Again, it's all online. Google "plan my Disney trip" or anything similar and a wealth of information comes up.

We're now talking in circles. Research the trip. Use online resources. It helps alleviate surprises. If one spends little to no time researching and planning they have no one else to blame but themselves. Except on this forum where everyone just blames Disney, lol.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Again, it's all online. Google "plan my Disney trip" or anything similar and a wealth of information comes up.

We're now talking in circles. Research the trip. Use online resources. It helps alleviate surprises. If one spends little to no time researching and planning they have no one else to blame but themselves. Except on this forum where everyone just blames Disney, lol.

Then why do so many people join here just to ask questions?

 

[PixarPerfect]

Then why do so many people join here just to ask questions?

And where is this forum located....? Oh yes, online.