From the OS: Gator drags child into Seven Seas Lagoon

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Daveeeeed

Well-Known Member
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Here- I did a quick Google search for you- please look at the map. It shows where alligators live. If you tell me that every hotel, resort, theme park in all of these areas warns guests of wildlife, I'd hand over my upcoming vacation lol. They don't. I'm positive of that. Not in SoFla not in most of Orlando, not in most of SC, or TX, etc.
It doesn't even matter now, because Disney is putting up warnings. Please just read all of this, and then maybe it will stop you from the circular path you're on.
And your fishing in Parkland, but not physically going in water- probably more risky than the GF beach. View attachment 146945
You are seriously trying to turn this into an argument again please stop. Everyone knows gators are in Florida, but most from out of state don't know that there are gators in a lake in WDW. Why do you feel a need to not accept that?
 

YDdraigGoch

New Member
USA Today interviewing a lawyer: state’s law doesn’t require an owner of a land to anticipate the presence of harm from wild animals unless the owner either owns the wild animal or introduced it.

I'll assume this is true for a second. This is a key bit of information because it speaks for the accountability being on guests which tends to get lost in this conversation. For me the doubt enters my mind when you take in to account the guest 'feeding' behaviour that Disney has clearly opted to ignore.

Disney wont argue this case in court even if it believes it can win the case because it will lose the PR battle and prolong a story they want gone. Of course the family could equally decide that any legal action could delay their ability to deal with the grief they are experiencing.
 

kelknight84

Well-Known Member
10 years, is not 44 years. That's how long our family has gone to Florida. Alligator's were an endangered species at that time. They weren't a problem for Disney or tourist's. The State put them on the endangered species list, and saw that their population grow, to the point it's now a problem. Please don't speak of something you read on YouTube, unless you are my age, and know the history, you are wrong.
I've lived in FL my entire life. Gators have always been here, and they aren't a problem today and weren't then either.

I didn't read anything on youtube I was pointing out that the gator videos were not from this week, or even year. They are from 10 years ago!
 

matt9112

Well-Known Member
View attachment 146946
Here- I did a quick Google search for you- please look at the map. It shows where alligators live. If you tell me that every hotel, resort, theme park in all of these areas warns guests of wildlife, I'd hand over my upcoming vacation lol. They don't. I'm positive of that. Not in SoFla not in most of Orlando, not in most of SC, or TX, etc.
It doesn't even matter now, because Disney is putting up warnings. Please just read all of this, and then maybe it will stop you from the circular path you're on.
And your fishing in Parkland, but not physically going in water- probably more risky than the GF beach. View attachment 146945

i think the real argument has been that disneys beaches invite you to the waters edge. they are built to look like regular beaches. if these beaches all over property (the poly,Gf,CBR ect) didn't exsist i dont think disney would have to warn of gators but they specifically build realistic beaches inviting guests to the waters edge (day and night) to enjoy it. simple no swimming sighns do not mean hey theres gators in here. to me they mean dont try swimming because if you drown where not paying for it.
just my two cents.
 

kelknight84

Well-Known Member
My brother, dad, and myself were about 10 feet from a 4ish foot gator sunbathing at one of the Shades of Green's ponds when we were walking to get breakfast. We didn't tell the front desk, because there are signs there that say "DO NOT feed or get near the alligators as this is there natural habitat". If you haven't been at the Shades there are legitimate swamps there unlike the beaches along SSL & Bay Lake. Ever since we saw it a few years ago that is what made us decide not to walk along and in the water when we go to poly as that is walking distance from where we saw the gator. Ever since then I've always wondered why they haven't had signs at poly, gf, Contemporary etc. Problem is though, not everyone knows about gators being in SSL, like we did not prior to going to the shades of green, and even then, we generally didn't think about it being a problem at SSL until we actually put some thought into it which was the next time we went to the beach at poly a few days later.
As I mentioned to you earlier most lakes in Florida have Sandy Shores that resemble a beach. Most state parks even have a swimming area at the Sandy Beach. Seven Seas Lagoon is not unique it resembles a lot of natural Florida.
 

kelknight84

Well-Known Member
Completely agree. Not to mention if you go to someplace like Yellowstone National Park for instance, you are going to expect bears to be there, but they still have warnings. People expect gators to be in Florida and in the Everglades, but not necessarily in a lake, much less a man made lake, on an inviting beach at Disney.

*EDIT due to a mistake* Gators (but they do have bears in some areas of Florida)
Gators are in every single body of water in Florida. Every lake, Pond, River and every man-made retention Pond and man-made lake.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
USA Today interviewing a lawyer: state’s law doesn’t require an owner of a land to anticipate the presence of harm from wild animals unless the owner either owns the wild animal or introduced it.
The attorney is correct with regard to personal land owners. You and I don't need to warn about wild animals on our personal property.

Disney is different. Disney is a business inviting customers onto its property in order to conduct commerce. As such, Disney is held to a higher standard.

Disney had a legal obligation to inspect for hazards and either remove or warn about knowable hazards.

There are two ways Disney might not be culpable.

First way: Disney did not know about the hazard and it was not a knowable hazard.

Let's say that alligators are not native to Florida and some bozo released an alligator on Disney's vast property. In this case, Disney would not have known about the hazard.

Conversely, Disney could be held responsible if a Disney employee happened to see this bozo do this and then that employee did nothing about it. In this example, Disney would know about what would otherwise be an unknowable hazard.

Second way: Disney removed the hazard or warned about the hazard.

Let's say a Cast Member walked up to the parents and said, "Stay away from the water. There are alligators in there." If the parents then disregarded Disney's warning, then Disney might not be held responsible.

But it has to be a warning identifying the specific danger. Disney cannot simply post "Danger" signs everywhere and then claim they warned guests. The warning must identify the specific threat.

And in anticipation of the question, it's my understanding that, legally, "no swimming" is a warning about the threat of drowning, not a warning about alligators unless it explicitly states so on the sign.

There's a reason the new signage specifically warns about alligators and snakes.
 
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21stamps

Well-Known Member
I just took these images off google. They aren't my own.
Guys, these are all "inviting" lakes. In Fl.
The No Swimming signs were there to tell you not to swim, that I'm in agreement with, for other reasons besides alligators. No one thought an alligator attack would happen, and you don't need to be IN the water for one to happen. When people realize this then the debate will stop. That's why millions of people have done the same thing as that boy, and millions of people are alive-because it is not common or expected. I'm glad the new signage is up. But the debates of fresh water and imminent danger are just not true.

If you don't visit Florida outside of Disney that's fine, or if you do and still don't know about the wildlife there, that's ok too. But these internet lawyers claiming what the responsibility of hotel owner is and is not , is getting ridiculous. There's been several people on this thread who actually live there, own property there, or know the state well, but yet for some reason everyone chooses to ignore the info we are passing along. Instead, clinging to some theory that Disney thought there would be a gator attack, but didn't want to frighten their guests...and all Florida hotels must warn you of wildlife that could harm you. It simply isn't true.

Between 2008-2013 there was 0 deaths by alligator. 2006 there was the most ever. Does it mean Florida was more or less safe in 2006 or 2013? It doesn't mean either one. It just means they are completely random.
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donsullivan

Premium Member
I'm going to stay out of most of this debate because to be honest it seems to have gone so far off the rails, it's just a shouting match now.

One question I do have. Why is everyone so obsessed with making sure they call it a 'man-made' lake? Do you think that somehow changes somebody's responsibility/liability or how that body of water should be managed? While the statement is 'technically accurate', when a body of water has been there for nearly 50 years is the fact that it was man made in the 1960's even relevant any more? It long ago became part of the natural ecosystem of that part of central Florida and functions no differently than Bay Lake or any other body of that was there when Disney originally purchased the land 50 years ago.
 

asianway

Well-Known Member
I'm going to stay out of most of this debate because to be honest it seems to have gone so far off the rails, it's just a shouting match now.

One question I do have. Why is everyone so obsessed with making sure they call it a 'man-made' lake? Do you think that somehow changes somebody's responsibility/liability or how that body of water should be managed? While the statement is 'technically accurate', when a body of water has been there for nearly 50 years is the fact that it was man made in the 1960's even relevant any more? It long ago became part of the natural ecosystem of that part of central Florida and functions no differently than Bay Lake or any other body of that was there when Disney originally purchased the land 50 years ago.
Thanks Don - that drum beat has been annoying
 

Matt_Black

Well-Known Member
I'm going to stay out of most of this debate because to be honest it seems to have gone so far off the rails, it's just a shouting match now.

One question I do have. Why is everyone so obsessed with making sure they call it a 'man-made' lake? Do you think that somehow changes somebody's responsibility/liability or how that body of water should be managed? While the statement is 'technically accurate', when a body of water has been there for nearly 50 years is the fact that it was man made in the 1960's even relevant any more? It long ago became part of the natural ecosystem of that part of central Florida and functions no differently than Bay Lake or any other body of that was there when Disney originally purchased the land 50 years ago.

The law doesn't care if it has become part of the natural ecosystem. If you neglect a building you own and it gets reclaimed by the wilderness, and then some teenagers wander in and get hurt, guess what? You're still looking at some trouble.
 

steviej

Well-Known Member
Sorry if someone said it already(I haven't read quite a bit), but my best friend brought up 2 good points over the weekend.

1) Were the parents on their cell phones at the time of the attacks?
2) Had they been drinking?
 
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Raineman

Well-Known Member
There's one thing I'd like to toss into the debate here. Let's say, for instance, that all along, WDW has been notifying every guest about the possibility of gators in all waterways at WDW. Let's also say that clearly visible signs detailing the presence of gators have always existed. Let's even say that the rope fence that they are building has always been there. What if guests decided to ignore the warnings, went beyond the fence and the signs, into the water, and a tragedy occurred? What would the SJWs and Chicken Littles say then? Maybe a 20 foot high barbed wire fence? You cannot guarantee 100% that something like this will never happen, or happen again. I'm not saying that I completely disagree with the fence, or signs, or guest information-but all of this will not guarantee that an attack will never happen again. Speaking for myself, before I go somewhere that I've never been, I always do my due diligence and research it, almost bordering on OCD, and I wish that everyone out there had at least some level of paranoia like I do.
 

G00fyDad

Well-Known Member
Sorry if someone said it already(I haven't read anything), but my best friend brought up 2 good points over the weekend.

1) Were the parents on their cell phones at the time of the attacks?
2) Had they been drinking?

1) Unknown, but the father was standing right near his son when it happened.
2) Unlikely. THIS would have made it to the news already.
 

Nemo14

Well-Known Member
There's one thing I'd like to toss into the debate here. Let's say, for instance, that all along, WDW has been notifying every guest about the possibility of gators in all waterways at WDW. Let's also say that clearly visible signs detailing the presence of gators have always existed. Let's even say that the rope fence that they are building has always been there. What if guests decided to ignore the warnings, went beyond the fence and the signs, into the water, and a tragedy occurred? What would the SJWs and Chicken Littles say then? Maybe a 20 foot high barbed wire fence? You cannot guarantee 100% that something like this will never happen, or happen again. I'm not saying that I completely disagree with the fence, or signs, or guest information-but all of this will not guarantee that an attack will never happen again. Speaking for myself, before I go somewhere that I've never been, I always do my due diligence and research it, almost bordering on OCD, and I wish that everyone out there had at least some level of paranoia like I do.
If there were signs already specifically mentioning the gators and if there had been a similar fence there then, Disney's liability or lack thereof would be significantly clearer.
 

Raineman

Well-Known Member
If there were signs already specifically mentioning the gators and if there had been a similar fence there then, Disney's liability or lack thereof would be significantly clearer.
Absolutely-that would help Disney with any questions about liability. If anything did happen, though, with all of those things in place, you would still have the hand-wringers demanding that Disney do more to prevent it. It's a no-win situation for Disney.
 

21stamps

Well-Known Member
There's one thing I'd like to toss into the debate here. Let's say, for instance, that all along, WDW has been notifying every guest about the possibility of gators in all waterways at WDW. Let's also say that clearly visible signs detailing the presence of gators have always existed. Let's even say that the rope fence that they are building has always been there. What if guests decided to ignore the warnings, went beyond the fence and the signs, into the water, and a tragedy occurred? What would the SJWs and Chicken Littles say then? Maybe a 20 foot high barbed wire fence? You cannot guarantee 100% that something like this will never happen, or happen again. I'm not saying that I completely disagree with the fence, or signs, or guest information-but all of this will not guarantee that an attack will never happen again. Speaking for myself, before I go somewhere that I've never been, I always do my due diligence and research it, almost bordering on OCD, and I wish that everyone out there had at least some level of paranoia like I do.
They wouldn't care. They are running with a specific theory in their minds and won't listen to anything else.
I've posted photos of my son in that water, other people have posted similar photos. We KNEW that gators could be in water, yet we let our children walk on the edge.
Again, just because someone is from Nebraska doesn't mean they are ignorant. Maybe they knew, maybe they didn't.
A little paranoia is good. Calling for beaches to be closed, marshmallow roasting and movies to be cancelled- this is a response of hysteria.
One death does not mean that now everything near the water is a "death trap" as some have quoted.
 

steviej

Well-Known Member
1) Unknown, but the father was standing right near his son when it happened.

Unfortunately, I've heard many different versions. But what I opted to do was go with the version of what I heard the most. The child was about a foot in, and both parents were watching from the sand
 
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