Disney(World) vs. Disney(land)?

Buried20KLeague

Well-Known Member
You need to try Knotts too and if you are feeling adventurous head down to San Diego for SeaWorld and the wildlife park.

Knotts is "on the list". Truthfully on our trips to SoCal, we don't like spending much time away from DL. Like the place too much!

On our last trip, we did stay a few days at a house right on The Strand on Hermosa Beach... Actually, it was the beach house from the original 90210 series! Nice place... People constantly stopped to take pictures of it and ask if we owned it, etc... It was a fun few days. But I was very surprised how cold the water was. We'll probably stick to Florida for our beach stays because of that, if nothing else. Plus that way we don't sacrifice DL days... We sacrifice WDW days instead. ;)
 

Lee

Adventurer
As I think about it, the VV E-tic (Villian Mtn, Dark Mtn, whatever...) shared the same DNA as the new-style Pirates going into Shanghai, and nearly went to Hong Kong. Full size boats with a long drop at the end. More akin to Jurassic Park than Splash in some ways.

Would've whole area would have been done on a grand scale. And would have been awesome.

And don't underestimate the appeal of the villians. Never popular enough for their own park (despite fanboy rumors) but could easily support a mini-land of their own.
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
I had a crazy idea recently, along the same line as the Villains park, but instead of that...again this is entirely Blue Sky thinking....having a whole Disney park which has the regular attractions during the day, but once it gets dark out, the park transforms into a villains park....kinda like what happens during the halloween events, but the actual attractions would also transform, so if you ride it again, there's a different storyline.
 

alissafalco

Well-Known Member
I really dont see VV in MK. So many children were terrified of SWSA and wouldn't go on. However I do think this would be a great addition to HS along with Star Wars land!! ;)
 

Lee

Adventurer
I really dont see VV in MK. So many children were terrified of SWSA and wouldn't go on. However I do think this would be a great addition to HS along with Star Wars land!! ;)
The only issue with putting VV (or a Star Wars land) into DHS would be theme. Hard to plop a completely fantasy-based land into a park that is meant to represent a real-life place. Wouldn't really work, and would give the park even more of an identity crisis than it has now.
 

Lee

Adventurer
I'm not convinced. The villains-themed character meal was a flop.
Yeah, but a themed land would be a hit almost by default. Especially with good dining and a big E.
The villain meal was just a bad fit, being almost exclusively at families with small kids. A highly themed restaurant (think Three Broomsticks, maybe Be Our Guest) would have done well, I think.
 

lebeau

Well-Known Member
Yeah, but a themed land would be a hit almost by default. Especially with good dining and a big E.
The villain meal was just a bad fit, being almost exclusively at families with small kids. A highly themed restaurant (think Three Broomsticks, maybe Be Our Guest) would have done well, I think.

It's possible. Certainly something could be done better than the Villains themed meal. I heard horror stories of people showing up completely unaware there would be villains!

But the track record for anything even remotely scary at MK makes me think it would be doomed to fail if they put it there. It might succeed at DHS, but as you said it's not a very good fit.

If Disney really outdid itself with a Harry Potter-level mini-land, it might succeed. But that's true with any theme if the execution is top notch. I think the theme in and of itself is a loser. Especially at MK. It would be an obstacle that would have to be overcome rather than something that would contribute to the success of the new land.

Obviously, just my opinion. But I do have some historical support for it. We'll likely never know for sure.
 

alissafalco

Well-Known Member
The only issue with putting VV (or a Star Wars land) into DHS would be theme. Hard to plop a completely fantasy-based land into a park that is meant to represent a real-life place. Wouldn't really work, and would give the park even more of an identity crisis than it has now.

They already have Star Tours, a Mermaid show, a BatB show, Muppets, Toy story mania- these certainly do not represent real life places. If that's the only issue then change the name to "Disney Studios".
 

spacemt354

Chili's
I'm not a big fan of the villain concept. I'm sure it would have looked nice. But I'm not sure about two e ticket flume rides in one park. I get wet on splash, then walk over and get wet again on the villains ride? I mean having two mine trains is different, because it's roller coasters. But I feel having two flume rides, albeit with somewhat different ride systems, wouldnt be a great idea, IMO, because I feel one flume ride is enough for one park before getting redundant.

The after hours show sounds nice, but again, factoring in the scare factor for kids (alien encounter, countdown to extinction) I don't think a villain themed land wouldn't be such a good idea. Again, it would probably look cool, but I'm satisfied with the very nice addition in the current fle. And it's not that I'm settling or second best for anything, I'm just not a big fan of a whole villains area in the parks
 

The Empress Lilly

Well-Known Member
I have the same underlying premise with that Villains Village concept, as described, that I have with Sorcerer's of the Magic Kingdom, that it subjects the other lands to the dominance and control of the Fantasyland story.
Exactly.

The MK is not Cartoon Kingdom, with Exotic Cartoons land, Future + Space Cartoons Land, Western Cartoons Land and Strip Mall plus Princess M&G Street.

The MK's magic relies on careful placemaking and thematic integrity. These are at once the most basic and essential ingredients to the magic, and the least understood and most difficult to describe and maintain.
 

Lee

Adventurer
Exactly.

The MK is not Cartoon Kingdom, with Exotic Cartoons land, Future + Space Cartoons Land, Western Cartoons Land and Strip Mall plus Princess M&G Street.

The MK's magic relies on careful placemaking and thematic integrity. These are at once the most basic and essential ingredients to the magic, and the least understood and most difficult to describe and maintain.
Oh, I completely agree.
When FLE was announced, I was (and remain) more in favor of major non-"toon" additions in either Adventureland or Tomorrowland.
 

Kuhio

Well-Known Member
I'll say this: I'd take a mine train Indy ride in AL (that would make 3! in MK) so I wouldn't have a problem with another flume ride, depnding on how it's themed.

This would have been the first attraction that would have featured Mickey that wasn't a film, wouldn't it?

Mickey also featured in the Mickey Mouse Revue, which debuted at the Magic Kingdom before moving to Tokyo Disneyland in the early '80s.

Check it out on YouTube -- it was a charming show that featured a number of AAs of Disney characters (including some relatively obscure ones) that never appeared in AA form anywhere else. Many of the characters did look pretty dated, however, and the show was eventually replaced by Mickey's PhilHarmagic.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Be Our Guest is about increasing capacity. How would closing another eatery help to increase capacity?
The location may prove to be redundant. Something like Tortuga Tavern, Diamond Horseshoe, Adventureland Veranda or Tomorrowland Terrace could reopen to spread out the dining crowds, but having two of the largest dining locations right next to each other very well may be redundant.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
But the track record for anything even remotely scary at MK makes me think it would be doomed to fail if they put it there.

Then why does The Haunted Mansion have the lasting appeal it does? I hear some kids are scared of Fantasmic, should we get rid of it?

Snow White "failed" (and I use the term loosely given the longevity it had), because it was positioned as a simplistic "kiddie" ride that scared the young set, but bored the older crowds with that same simplicity. AE failed because it pushed too hard on the "shock" and "gross" style scares that just had no precedent in any Disney park.

The Villains ride sounds like niether. Far more complex than Snow White and not "ugly" like AE, yet still featuring familiar characters that while may not be appealing to the under 6 crowd, could entertain every other age group that goes into MK. I don't know what visuals would be featured, but nobody does here really.

Disney built a villain centric attraction for Tokyo and it did fine for 20 years, I don't see why an MK with some villains wouldn't work at all.
 

misterID

Well-Known Member
lebeau said:
But the track record for anything even remotely scary at MK makes me think it would be doomed to fail if they put it there.​

Ahem, Haunted Mansion, Pirates Of The Caribbean, Space and Thunder Mountain, Mr. Toads Wild Ride (where you go to hell)...
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
We now consider DL our "home resort". But I'm not depressed or upset about it... DL has EARNED our business. They continue to. Don't let it bother you if you end up feeling the same way. WDW may rebound... But in the meantime, there's a FANTASTIC resort in SoCal calling your name. :D

As a native West Coaster who then spent a few decades of my adult life living up and down the East Coast (where my Disney fandom blossomed at WDW in the 1980's and early 90's), I can understand that.

When I moved back to SoCal in the late 90's, I was right there criticizing Disneyland of the Pressler era (1997-03) and the tacky cheapness of DCA 1.0 in the early 00's. Disneyland earned me back 110% in the last five years with all that they have done there since the 50th in '05, and all that WDW has not done (or done half-heartedly) in the same amount of time. :)

Back to WDW vs. DL, one of the HUGE differences between the two resorts is the hotel stock. At WDW they've got 30,000 Disney owned hotel rooms on property, and at DL they've got 2,500 hotel rooms on property. The result is that Disneyland relies heavily on the "Anaheim Resort District", the roughly 20 square blocks mainly to the east and south of Disneyland to make up the rest of their hotel room stock. And in that "Resort District" there are approximately 25,000 hotel rooms from ancient 50 room circa 1963 motor inns to 1,000+ room full-service luxury Hyatts and Hiltons and Marriotts.

And yes, 25,000+ hotel rooms within a strolling mile of Disneyland's entry turnstiles doesn't make ANY SENSE if you subscribe to the Well-Known Internetz Fact that "Disneyland is only for locals". :p

The interesting thing is how quickly Cars Land has made an impact on the Anaheim hotel business. The OC Register has reported that the numbers just from June (July & August not in yet) show a very sharp rise in both occupancy and rates for the Anaheim hotel market, sending the key profitability index hotels use up 13% compared to June, 2011. And the hoteliers are giddy as they tell the press it's all due to Cars Land and the revamped DCA 2.0. http://www.ocregister.com/articles/percent-368780-hotel-california.html

What might that mean for WDW, where insiders report hotel occupancy and spending is down this summer? It would seem there is a lot of slack in the system in and around WDW to pick up hotel occupancy. Would a grand-slam homerun hit like Cars Land in a WDW park help pull the entire 30,000 room system up?

I'm not sure FLE is going to do much for WDW hotel occupancy. FLE seems like they're finally getting a man on second, compared to the Cars Land grand-slam homerun. :confused:

After all, the Mermaid ride already debuted in Anaheim back in May, 2011 at DCA and the hotel occupancy stayed flat with 2010. About the only thing you can really market with FLE is the Mermaid ride, and it didn't do much for DCA attendance-wise (although it's a perfectly pleasant 6 minute princess sing-a-long ride).

I'll be interested to see how they market FLE and what the response is in 2013 with WDW hotel occupancy and park attendance!
 

Jedeye80

Active Member
Yeah, but a themed land would be a hit almost by default. Especially with good dining and a big E.
The villain meal was just a bad fit, being almost exclusively at families with small kids. A highly themed restaurant (think Three Broomsticks, maybe Be Our Guest) would have done well, I think.
Surely the Disney execs realise that villains are needed otherwise how do you have heroes or princess's. A mini land in MK themed to villains would be fantastic, nothing to extreme to scare the little ones but more on the dark side. The characters like malificent and evil queen are so underused by Disney, having somewhere that they can have a more prominent role seems like a sure win to me, a great e-ticket ride even if it is a flume ride sounds great. Even a restaurant themed to a dungeon would be amazing. Hopefully the chances of this happening could come back up if the malificent movie with angelina Jolie is a success.
 

Cosmic Commando

Well-Known Member
I've thought that as well, perhaps an attraction that would blend the two areas.
It would still have to be restaurant because of all the restaurant equipment above and below, the cast cafeteria is directly below PVH.
Do PVH and the cast cafeteria share a kitchen? I don't really know how much closing a restaurant upstairs would affect the one downstairs or how separate they are. If you look at the satellite view, the entrance to the utilidors is directly behind PVH. They could theoretically knock down PVH and use that space to lead up to a big show building, as long as the vehicle traffic could still go underneath the show building. I'm imagining something like a parking deck where the utilidor level would be mostly unchanged and the upper level would be for show building. Complicated... sure, but it should be possible if they have something they want to put there.
The obstacles, as I see them:
1. Hiding the sides of the small world and Be Our Guest show buildings
2. Preserving backstage/utilidor traffic flow
3. There would come a point pretty quickly where that's the fireworks fallout zone; you would either need a Mermaid Lagoon/Epcot pavilion-like building with multiple attractions inside or a small guest area with a show building for a ride.

I have no idea what they would theme it as, but the idea of a big, AC'ed pavilion in MK sounds really nice!
 

WDW1974

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Villain Village would have occupied the entire former 20K plot. Surrounded by an imposing wall, and entered through large gates, it would have contained villain-themed shops, M&Gs, dining and a large E-Tic flume ride. The ride(Villain Mtn., Dark Mtn., etc,) would have been sort of a cross between the proposed dragon coaster at AK, Jurassic Park at IoA, and Splash. AAs, cool effects and music, long drop.

As I heard it, VV would have been the only place in the MK to find the villain characters. Except for the nights of Mickey's Not-So-Scary. On those nights, at the beginning of the party, a sort of ceremony would happen where the villains would escape and kind of take over the park by chasing the other characters offstage. The party would have then had all the rides, shows and parade take on a villain flavor.
At the end if the night, Sorcerer Mickey would lead a charge up Main St., herding the escaped villains back into VV and locking them in.

That was to have been WDW's assault on Halliween Horror Nights.

Sound better than the current FLE?

Have you ever seen any art on said project? ... I've heard many talk about it, but no one who has actually seen it, which has always made me wonder if it wasn't just very, very, VERY blue sky (like out in San Mateo or down in Tortola FAR away!) You know how far along it ever got?

'Cause I also recall all the fanbois (this was back in the newsgroup days) swearing up and down about Fire Mountain coming to the MK when no one at WDI said it was way anything but way out in blue sky land and had been bypassed by Mission Space for EPCOT (no one believed back then even if my source was none other than the VP of EPCOT at the time!)
 

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