Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
D23
Any left coasters doing D23? I'm going tomorrow for a bit.
Any left coasters doing D23? I'm going tomorrow for a bit.
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Eddie Sotto's take on the current state of the parks (Part II)
- Thread starter wdwmagic
- Start date
thehowiet
Wilson King of Prussia
Will you be attending the Staggs presentation?
I wish I was making the trek from the east coast.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Maybe. I'm sure that will be mobbed. A friend got me a ticket, so I have no real schedule and since I'm not a member, I think you get let into the events late. I've never been so I thought I'd just look around with a buddy. The worst that can happen is that we end up at Trader's Sam's Tiki lounge at the Hotel!
NoChesterHester
Well-Known Member
Never been but looks amazing. Heard it was tiny though. I can't imagine it wouldn't work on a bigger scale at WDW. Question is where would it git thematically. I don't want something like that wasted on the MK because of the requirement for a park ticket and the no alcohol policy.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
D23
The Poly hotel could use the Tiki Bar for sure.
D23 was fun. The Parks and Resorts projects presentation was nice as well. The pre show "Carousel of Projects" featured tons of clips and images never seen and so I loved that. Very well done and the highlight of the show for me.
Once inside, there were big impressive models of WDW Fantasyland, the Cars (test track) vehicle, and some displays on the Snow White swinging coaster. Carsland had a big screen that showed time-lapse of the rock work going in and so forth. Interesting and immersive. There were not any new surprises, although in one of the presentations (I missed it) they showed a 3D walk through of the Shanghai Castle and how it will be several stories with a boat ride running through it. Looks like they are stacking up the Princesses in there as meet and greets. All good ideas that depend on the execution. I did not attend any of the panel discussions or anything, you get sidetracked into saying hello to lots of people and before you know it the day is gone. Lots of Imagineers there to catch up with. So fun to see them again.
I liked the "Kinect" XBox game of DL too. Really cool. Played it.
The Archive "Treasures" display was pretty good but felt a bit thin. They had the screen used illuminated manuscript book from "Sleeping Beauty". Well done. The art in the galleries for sale was better than what was in the archive display IMO. You could buy Mary Blair originals from the movies and Eyvand Earle if you brought 15 grand along. The best thing to me was this humble piece of paper that had scrawled corrections and notations from Walt himself. It was the copy that was used for the entry portal plaques at Disneyland. He even sketched the proportion of the plaque, location over the entry tunnels of the Main Street Station, and changed the copy around to what we see today. Walt managed the details and this was a conceptual one that set up the story, like writing a title card for a movie. So when you read "Here you leave today, and enter the worlds of yesterday, tomorrow, and fantasy", that is his direct quote. He indicated that the plaques be a 4 to 3 ratio. Ironically that is a film proportion.
I am always impressed by the fact that some pay 47 bucks to get in so they can wait in a 30 minute line just to get into the store. The power of merchandise that people actually want. They had WED logo stuff and even a line of "Small World" clothes for kids. You had all the Art galleries and collectible booths which is fun to look at. I watched someone pay about 7 grand for a model of the Jungle Cruise Boathouse (I worked on that project, so I got my picture next to it while I could!).
The Poly hotel could use the Tiki Bar for sure.
D23 was fun. The Parks and Resorts projects presentation was nice as well. The pre show "Carousel of Projects" featured tons of clips and images never seen and so I loved that. Very well done and the highlight of the show for me.
Once inside, there were big impressive models of WDW Fantasyland, the Cars (test track) vehicle, and some displays on the Snow White swinging coaster. Carsland had a big screen that showed time-lapse of the rock work going in and so forth. Interesting and immersive. There were not any new surprises, although in one of the presentations (I missed it) they showed a 3D walk through of the Shanghai Castle and how it will be several stories with a boat ride running through it. Looks like they are stacking up the Princesses in there as meet and greets. All good ideas that depend on the execution. I did not attend any of the panel discussions or anything, you get sidetracked into saying hello to lots of people and before you know it the day is gone. Lots of Imagineers there to catch up with. So fun to see them again.
I liked the "Kinect" XBox game of DL too. Really cool. Played it.
The Archive "Treasures" display was pretty good but felt a bit thin. They had the screen used illuminated manuscript book from "Sleeping Beauty". Well done. The art in the galleries for sale was better than what was in the archive display IMO. You could buy Mary Blair originals from the movies and Eyvand Earle if you brought 15 grand along. The best thing to me was this humble piece of paper that had scrawled corrections and notations from Walt himself. It was the copy that was used for the entry portal plaques at Disneyland. He even sketched the proportion of the plaque, location over the entry tunnels of the Main Street Station, and changed the copy around to what we see today. Walt managed the details and this was a conceptual one that set up the story, like writing a title card for a movie. So when you read "Here you leave today, and enter the worlds of yesterday, tomorrow, and fantasy", that is his direct quote. He indicated that the plaques be a 4 to 3 ratio. Ironically that is a film proportion.
I am always impressed by the fact that some pay 47 bucks to get in so they can wait in a 30 minute line just to get into the store. The power of merchandise that people actually want. They had WED logo stuff and even a line of "Small World" clothes for kids. You had all the Art galleries and collectible booths which is fun to look at. I watched someone pay about 7 grand for a model of the Jungle Cruise Boathouse (I worked on that project, so I got my picture next to it while I could!).
ChrisFL
Premium Member
Eddie: Now that you've seen the detail of the Dwarves mine train cars, I wanted to ask your opinion on feasibility for a system like that to work on the old Peoplemover/Rocket Rods track in DL.
When they designed Rocket Rods, I heard part of the issue was the strain of g-forces the tight turns would cause on the guests, so they had to slow down causing lots of wear and tear on the braking system.
Do you think that dwarves vehicle could work for the Peoplemover track, just from a pure engineering perspective?
When they designed Rocket Rods, I heard part of the issue was the strain of g-forces the tight turns would cause on the guests, so they had to slow down causing lots of wear and tear on the braking system.
Do you think that dwarves vehicle could work for the Peoplemover track, just from a pure engineering perspective?
flynnibus
Premium Member
The slowing down was in response to the system trying to run on a track not designed for high speed turns. The need to brake so much wore down the brake and tire systems.
The swinging woudn't help things. The swinging lessens the lateral G on the RIDER (by rotating them changing it to a downward vector relative to the guest) - but not really on the vehicle/track. The movement screws with the center of gravity of the vehicle and would disipate some of the lateral forces caused by the turn (by consuming energy to rotate the swinging portion) but doesn't 'solve' the problem for the track. In some ways, it makes it worse because the center of gravity moves higher, putting even more stress on the track for rotational forces.
At the end of the day you have a block of mass moving at a velocity through a curve... that creates an acceleration.. which must be supported by the track. When it's flat, that becomes a sheering lateral force for the track supports. The higher the center of gravity of the mass.. you also get a rotational force trying to tip the body to the outside.. this creates forces trying to pull the inside of the track up as well.
The best thing you can do to 'solve' the problem is
1) slow the vehicle (which is what they did)
2) lower the mass of the vehicle
3) lower the center of gravity of the vehicle
Everything else is redesign the track. Reduce the acceleration by lengthening the curve radius... change the force vectors to compression forces instead of sheering forces (change the angle of the track), etc.
You should have setup a booth out front selling stuff from you're filling cabinets that you no longer wanted. You could have made a mint!
invader
Well-Known Member
Cheaper than getting into the parks!
Also, thanks for your input on the parks, it means a lot to people like us! :king:
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Good question. The previous poster covered most of the reasons not to.. Here's more background. Prior to "Rocket Rods" there was another attraction proposed called "Rocket Bikes". The bikes appeared to be jet powered Choppers and popped "wheelies" on launch and would lean like a motorcycle. That was my project at the time, and by doing some studies on the Peoplemover beamway we discovered two things, one that there were clearance issues in the buildings if you banked the bikes. Second was that you have to build new tracks and this would put lots of stress on the old beamway over time. The dwarves car naturally swings with the load and as was said, I think fatigue that would play havoc on the old PM beamway over time as well. Again, given the lame route, you'd want to seriously consider rebuilding the whole thing.
IMO the real answer is to start over and not be constrained by the old route, which was designed for touring, not the exciting series of twists and turns as thrill rides are accustomed. the track is as much of the ride system as the vehicle. The "Rocket Rods" was Tony and Bruce's project and this took advantage of the old beamway and route and in the end I think that was a real handicap to the ride. I was told there were issues of so much rubber burning off of the tires (braking) that small granules of rubber were found in the food at Tomorrowland Terrace below. Then you had the vehicle braking down alot.
We were asked to do a version for TDL and we proposed "MagRacers", a dual racing version of the ride with interactive guest control. Set on another planet, you race through asteroid caverns,etc. powered by magnetism. I think that unless you're doing something really wild with the track, this GM Test track ride feels no more dynamic than riding in a small car with the top down. It needed more. We banked the turns like a big slot car set. In the end, I recommended not doing the ride at all for creative reasons, and thankfully the RR could not stay running at DL so TDL abandoned it too.
Ironically, The new DCA Cars ride (same racing theme and vehicle) has elaborate show scenes and so it stands a better chance of being a "wow".
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Tell me about it. When I quit, as a prank, they sold my wastebasket of sketches on eBay. I've got too much stuff as it is. :lol:
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
Well said. We got some classy responders on this thread!
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
My daughter is going to the parks tomorrow and ironically I'm reading this before heading to the ATM to get her some pocket cash to go!! :ROFLOL:
Thanks for posting.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
One More thing..
D23 video of New Fantasyland...very nice presentation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY8UaHjq1z8
D23 video of New Fantasyland...very nice presentation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY8UaHjq1z8
flynnibus
Premium Member
its an interesting discussion.. mainly because it makes me wonder if predictable energy was some of the problem they had with the new coaster.
The ride swinging will cause more friction in the wheel system.. vs the same load if the vehicle were stationary. This extra friction burns off energy. And if the swinging is free moving, the energy bleed would be hard to predict, potentially really causing problems with designing a roller coaster. I wonder if the 7 dwarves design will have boosters.. to help compensate and normalize a ride vehicle's movements through different parts of the ride.
And for the very same reasons about your questions on the PM track.. the new coaster could introduce new challenges to supporting the track itself - or at least new/unique challenges.
Thanks for the insight on the RR project for TDL Eddie. That's the kind of passing history that is always so interesting to hear from those that actually worked on the projects and from the outside looking in.. you never really get a solid picture.
The ride swinging will cause more friction in the wheel system.. vs the same load if the vehicle were stationary. This extra friction burns off energy. And if the swinging is free moving, the energy bleed would be hard to predict, potentially really causing problems with designing a roller coaster. I wonder if the 7 dwarves design will have boosters.. to help compensate and normalize a ride vehicle's movements through different parts of the ride.
And for the very same reasons about your questions on the PM track.. the new coaster could introduce new challenges to supporting the track itself - or at least new/unique challenges.
Thanks for the insight on the RR project for TDL Eddie. That's the kind of passing history that is always so interesting to hear from those that actually worked on the projects and from the outside looking in.. you never really get a solid picture.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
I'm sure the engineers discussed making the swing something motivated or powered, but hopefully it will be guest driven and organic. The more the guest feels they are influencing the ride, the more precarious and thrilling it becomes. Tony always complained that the engineers designed out the rockiness of the Big Thunder Track and made it all feel too smooth and perfect. That was always the difference if feedback between wood and steel coasters, one was rocky and precarious as it reverberated between rails, the other is smooth without free play between the wheels and the tubes. Analog vs. Digital.
I think it's good to tell the evolutionary story behind these rides because you can see how good ideas live on and eventually find their way in and the bad ones work themselves out. Cars is (probably unwittingly) based on some of those assumptions of the TDL version and learns from the failures of the Rocket Rods.
NoChesterHester
Well-Known Member
Can't believe I overlooked the obvious. Could be incredible with the right siting. Backdrop of Seven Seas Lagoon and the MK.
The parking situation at the Poly is already strained, but I'm sure there is a solution.
Great idea!!
Back on the influence of technology I love the idea that layers could be added using already familiar technology.
I love the skyview type apps that can show you the constellations of stars in view as the user holds the phone to the sky. Imagine an xray app that shows "hidden" ink over a poster when the device is held up. This type of thing could add these hidden layers while still allowing for a traditional park experience.
I could also see these elaborate back stories actually finding a useful home in this scenario. A way to keep drilling into the information and story as you explore could really enhance it for those of us that go to the parks a lot. All could use digital devices we are already comfortable with.
Eddie Sotto
Premium Member
That is pretty much the approach I've been taking in developing things like that.
ob1thx1138
Member
I think it would be really neat to have glasses with built in screens that introduced augmented reality objects and animations to different areas of the park. You could even call it Pixie vision or something similar.