Why haven't you joined DVC???

[sweetpee_1993]

This to me is always a fun discussion. I'm not Pro or Anti DVC. That being said, I go to Disney twice a year, and spend a total of 23-30 nights there per year. Everyone always asks, why don't we join?

I've looked into DVC every which way possible. There's a few reasons we haven't joined:

1.For the amount of nights we stay, and for the amount of people we have (5), we'd need an extreme amount of points. The total cost is one thing, but the dues on top would be something else.

2.It's true - You can skip a year and bank points. However, even if you do, you still have to pay dues for the year. Why would I want to pay for something I'm not using?

3.Vacations are a luxury, not a necessity. We're very lucky that right now we can afford to take vacations. However, heaven forbid something happens that we lose any of our income, I don't want to be tied down to a payment.

4.I like daily housekeeping.

5.I don't like villa style accomadations.

6.DVC is a set price. No discounts ever. I haven't paid rack rate on a room at Disney in over 5 years.

7.The point system is more confusing than just regular room only booking.

8.Kind of silly, but I HATE DVC's motto - "The freedom to vacation when you want, for as long as you want." Why the hell do I need DVC for that?

We've done the tour twice, also, and have given it a lot of thought. Looking back at what we've spent on just hotel costs in the past 5 years we could've bought in. But our reasons not to join are very similar to these.

2. Yep! If for some reason I can't take a vacation and use my points within my use year it means most likely there's a financial reason why I can't. If I'm running a bit tight on cash the last thing I want or need is to shell out $$ for maintenance fees on a "timeshare" I can't get any bang out of that year.

3. Agreed. We *have* had our income decrease significantly this year. We're doing just fine in spite of the decrease but if I was tied to those dues right now we'd be in a heckuva fix and going nowhere anytime soon. Thank God we *didn't* join.

4. Me, too! I don't go on vacation to clean house. And at the cost of the points plus the amount spent on maintenance fees I would be seriously, seriously irked by having to pay extra to get the cleaning done every day. LOL!

I don't have a 5th person like Yoda & the Captain but I do have 2 teenage boys who are the polar opposite of each other in just about every way. They do not sleep okay together. I have to have a separate bed for each. And they're teens. They're messy. I don't want to look at their crap spread out across the living room every day. Or have them folding up / unfolding a sofa bed every day. That rules out the studios and the 1 br's. Our typical trips are 9 nights. A 2 br for that length of stay takes a lot of points. The cost of the points isn't the part that gets me. I ain't paying those maintenance fees on that many points. That's all there is to it.

 

[brifraz]

A couple quick comments on this...almost bought in back in 1994. Came very close, but had NO cash, had just started a new job, and well...got put on the back burner. 14 years later, still in the same job and a potential cash influx and we were there.

One area of value that often is overlooked is when you vacation. We are a teacher family with a school-age child. Summer and holidays are our only options. Yes, it costs more points to go those times, but when you do a value comparison to the cash rates at those times of year, you come out way ahead. If we could travel in early October or late January when we could get great room discounts, DVC would not have been for us.

2. Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster that WDWMagic does not allow pictures in signatures. My word is that cluttering and distracting!

Nice to see a fellow Pastafarian here.

 

[captainkidd]

As for the 5th person in a 1 bedroom, I've been told my many DVCers that Disney will allow it, but does not provide bedding. What they should do is, put 2 beds in the master bedroom, then have the pullout sofa in the living room. Making one of my kids sleep on a chair or the floor isn't going to happen, and I'm not going through the hassle of bringing an air mattress with us.

 

[Master Yoda]

Nice to see a fellow Pastafarian here.

There are a few of us bumping around here.

 

[Pioneer Hall]

As for the 5th person in a 1 bedroom, I've been told my many DVCers that Disney will allow it, but does not provide bedding. What they should do is, put 2 beds in the master bedroom, then have the pullout sofa in the living room. Making one of my kids sleep on a chair or the floor isn't going to happen, and I'm not going through the hassle of bringing an air mattress with us.

I would guess that it why they don't advertise it. However, with the new sleeper chairs it seems that all 1 br villas will ultimately be able to sleep 5 (as opposed to just accomodate them). Seems like Disney realized these rooms were plenty big for 5 people and they were losing business with people like Richard who don't want to have to worry about big points for a 2 BR.

 

[tjkraz]

Some random food for thought...

2.It's true - You can skip a year and bank points. However, even if you do, you still have to pay dues for the year. Why would I want to pay for something I'm not using?

Because you haven't lost the use of the points. They are still yours.

3.Vacations are a luxury, not a necessity. We're very lucky that right now we can afford to take vacations. However, heaven forbid something happens that we lose any of our income, I don't want to be tied down to a payment.

True but the flip side to that is the DVC contract is an asset which can be liquidated if necessary.

We've been owners for about 8 years now. The net price for our stays, including annual dues, is FAR less than rack rates. Taking into account annual dues and amortizing the up-front purchase, my upcoming December stay is 78% off of Rack. It varies by trip but 65-75% off of rack is pretty typical.

And if worse comes to worst and we need some cash, after 8+ years of using the DVC contracts I could get back nearly what we paid by putting them on the resale market.

4.I like daily housekeeping.

Daily housekeeping is available for a fee and it doesn't dramatically skew the value of DVC, IMO. If I added daily housekeeping to my December stay, we would still be netting a 70% discount on rack rates.

6.DVC is a set price. No discounts ever. I haven't paid rack rate on a room at Disney in over 5 years.

But DVC members pay far less than rack rates, too. :shrug: Just because DVC owners don't get an extra bump when tourism lags shouldn't devalue its benefits. Paying 30% of rack is still 30% of rack. Annual dues will inflate a bit each year (although they are legally tied to resort operating costs), but at least I'm not subject to Disney's whims when it comes to discounts and other incentives on cash rooms.

7.The point system is more confusing than just regular room only booking.

We'll definitely have to agree to disagree on that one.

I can pull out the point charts and a calculator and come up with a cost for any given trip very easily. (Actually I would probably just use my iPhone DVC point app.)

In my experiences, getting cash rates has always been a confusing, time consuming process of plugging in different dates, resorts and room types to see what comes up. It's either that or waiting to hear back from a travel agent. And don't get me started on discount codes.

I can calculate the number of DVC points required for any trip in about 10 seconds.

This was one of the biggest factors making DVC not the best deal for us as well. I too have a party of 5 and our family would have had to use a 2br villa for every trip. The price on one of those compared to a standard room at PORS was insane. Sure we would have gotten quite a bit more but we did not need it.

DVC has been allowing 5 total occupants in any one bedroom for at least 4-5 years now.

It is "unofficial" to the extent that I doubt DVC will ever go back and amend the Public Offering Statement to increase the occupancy. But the policy is very consistently administered for all resorts and all members.

The Bay Lake Tower, Animal Kingdom Villas, Grand Californian and Aulani have all been constructed with a bed for the 5th guest. Vero Beach has been renovated to add the sleeper chair and Old Key West is in the process of getting them.

As for the other resorts, it remains to be seen. The BoardWalk Villas were renovated in 2009 and sleeper chairs were not added. Space is a bit tighter in the living room and there probably is not room for the queen-size sleeper sofa and a twin sleeper chair.

But all of the other resorts will allow 5 guests. Admittedly the sleeping arrangements are not a perfect fit for all but it is an option.

 

[Master Yoda]

The Bay Lake Tower, Animal Kingdom Villas, Grand Californian and Aulani have all been constructed with a bed for the 5th guest. Vero Beach has been renovated to add the sleeper chair and Old Key West is in the process of getting them.

As for the other resorts, it remains to be seen. The BoardWalk Villas were renovated in 2009 and sleeper chairs were not added. Space is a bit tighter in the living room and there probably is not room for the queen-size sleeper sofa and a twin sleeper chair.

But all of the other resorts will allow 5 guests. Admittedly the sleeping arrangements are not a perfect fit for all but it is an option.

Like I have said in previous posts we explicitly asked about this on 2 separate tours and were told that we would need to book a minimum of a 2br for a party of 5. These tours took place when SSR was still under construction and the Villas at AKL, BLT and Aulani were not even concept art yet. The sales agent on out second tour even went as far as telling us the DVC would not be best fit for my family when our party size and travel patterns were factored in.

 

[tjkraz]

Like I have said in previous posts we explicitly asked about this on 2 separate tours and were told that we would need to book a minimum of a 2br for a party of 5. These tours took place when SSR was still under construction and the Villas at AKL, BLT and Aulani were not even concept art yet. The sales agent on out second tour even went as far as telling us the DVC would not be best fit for my family when our party size and travel patterns were factored in.

And I don't doubt that is true. Sounds like you toured around 2005/2006 and that WAS the policy at that time. But the policy changed quite some time ago and they have been consistently allowing 5 guests in any One Bedroom and 9 guests in any Two Bedroom* for several years now.

(*The only exception to the above are the "Value" rooms at the Animal Kingdom Villas which are rigidly enforced at 4/8 guests due to the small size of those villas.)

 

[captainkidd]

Because you haven't lost the use of the points. They are still yours.

I realize that, but you are still paying dues for something you didn't use. Just because you bank the points, doesn't mean you don't have to pay dues the following year. It's like leasing a car and not driving it for 1 year. Sure, you can drive twice as many miles next year, but you still have to pay for it every month the year you didn't drive it, in addition to next year.


True but the flip side to that is the DVC contract is an asset which can be liquidated if necessary.

We've been owners for about 8 years now. The net price for our stays, including annual dues, is FAR less than rack rates. Taking into account annual dues and amortizing the up-front purchase, my upcoming December stay is 78% off of Rack. It varies by trip but 65-75% off of rack is pretty typical.

And if worse comes to worst and we need some cash, after 8+ years of using the DVC contracts I could get back nearly what we paid by putting them on the resale market.

I don't think anyone would deny DVC makes a good deal of sense if you can pay for the amount of points you'd need up front. Me, I don't have $35,000 for that. If you've got the money to pay for it up front, then yes, it makes sense in pretty much any scenario. The majority of people can't do that. And for every single year that you finance, those savings drop DRAMATICALLY. Start factoring in discounts, and that just changes it all the more. I know a few people who sold DVC, and not one of them says they got back NEARLY what they paid for it.


Daily housekeeping is available for a fee and it doesn't dramatically skew the value of DVC, IMO. If I added daily housekeeping to my December stay, we would still be netting a 70% discount on rack rates.

YOU may be netting a 70% discount on rack rates. Not everyone will be in the same situation. As you said, you bought 8 years ago when it was much less expensive.


But DVC members pay far less than rack rates, too. :shrug: Just because DVC owners don't get an extra bump when tourism lags shouldn't devalue its benefits. Paying 30% of rack is still 30% of rack. Annual dues will inflate a bit each year (although they are legally tied to resort operating costs), but at least I'm not subject to Disney's whims when it comes to discounts and other incentives on cash rooms.

No, you're not subject to Disney's whims on discounts on rooms, but you're also not eligible for them either. As I said, I haven't paid rack rate in 5 years.

We'll definitely have to agree to disagree on that one.

I can pull out the point charts and a calculator and come up with a cost for any given trip very easily. (Actually I would probably just use my iPhone DVC point app.)

In my experiences, getting cash rates has always been a confusing, time consuming process of plugging in different dates, resorts and room types to see what comes up. It's either that or waiting to hear back from a travel agent. And don't get me started on discount codes.

I can calculate the number of DVC points required for any trip in about 10 seconds.

I never have a problem with reserving a room. We reserve it, usually with a AAA discount, then just wait for a general or AP discount to come out. It's simple. If I decide to take a longer vacation one year, I don't have to worry about borrowing points and taking a shorter one the next year.

 

[DVCOwner]

Because you haven't lost the use of the points. They are still yours.

I realize that, but you are still paying dues for something you didn't use. Just because you bank the points, doesn't mean you don't have to pay dues the following year. It's like leasing a car and not driving it for 1 year. Sure, you can drive twice as many miles next year, but you still have to pay for it every month the year you didn't drive it, in addition to next year.

No it is not like leasing a car. If leasing a car was like what DVC does, than if you did not drive the car for a full year they would give you two cars the next year.

 

[Master Yoda]

And I don't doubt that is true. Sounds like you toured around 2005/2006 and that WAS the policy at that time. But the policy changed quite some time ago and they have been consistently allowing 5 guests in any One Bedroom and 9 guests in any Two Bedroom* for several years now.

(*The only exception to the above are the "Value" rooms at the Animal Kingdom Villas which are rigidly enforced at 4/8 guests due to the small size of those villas.)

It was a little before that....02 or 03 I think. If I am not mistaken the mock up room for SSR that they showed us was at the Boardwalk.

 

[captainkidd]

No it is not like leasing a car. If leasing a car was like what DVC does, than if you did not drive the car for a full year they would give you two cars the next year.

Yeah, that's a good point.

I'm not saying you're getting ripped off by having to pay the dues for a year if you don't go. What I'm saying is, life happens and things come up, and with DVC or not, you may not have the cash to go one year. I'd much rather not have to concern myself paying dues if I didn't have the money one year.

 

[tjkraz]

I realize that, but you are still paying dues for something you didn't use. Just because you bank the points, doesn't mean you don't have to pay dues the following year. It's like leasing a car and not driving it for 1 year. Sure, you can drive twice as many miles next year, but you still have to pay for it every month the year you didn't drive it, in addition to next year.

Not the greatest analogy...comparing vehicle usage to vacation lodging.

Members get what they pay for. If you own enough points for 2 weeks every year and decide to bank the 2010 point, in 2011 you will have enough for 4 weeks. Yes the dues are still spread evenly over both 2010 and 2011, which is done purely for budgetary reasons.

The flip side to this is that you can also borrow points which--by your logic--haven't been paid for yet. If I want to go for 4 weeks in 2010, I can borrow all of my 2011 points and won't pay dues on those points until '11.

I don't think anyone would deny DVC makes a good deal of sense if you can pay for the amount of points you'd need up front. Me, I don't have $35,000 for that.

Financing the purchase may add to the cost but it doesn't turn DVC into a losing proposition.

If you were saving 70% on 30 nights per year, I can guarantee you could absorb some interest charges and still come out far ahead.

YOU may be netting a 70% discount on rack rates. Not everyone will be in the same situation. As you said, you bought 8 years ago when it was much less expensive.

You could buy Saratoga Springs points on the resale market for $65 each today. That's even less than I paid 8 years ago. The contract is shorter now (44 years left) but the overall economics are still comparable.

Even paying over $100 per point for Bay Lake Tower is entirely defensible given the lower annual dues of that property.

Points and cash seasons don't match up exactly so comparisons do certainly fluctuate. But I have never seen a resort/date comparison where the DVC savings were less than 65% of rack.

No, you're not subject to Disney's whims on discounts, but you're also not eligible for them either. As I said, I haven't paid rack rate in 5 years.

Neither have I. And I won't for the next 40+ years if I choose to hold on to my contracts that long.

I never have a problem with reserving a room. We reserve it, usually with a AAA discount, then just wait for a general or AP discount to come out. It's simple. If I decide to take a longer vacation one year, I don't have to worry about borrowing points and taking a shorter one the next year.

I see your point there but I never worry about it either. That's what the banking and borrowing options are for. And if I want total flexibility, I can always pay cash for extra nights.

In terms of pricing vacations, I still think DVC is better because there is full disclosure. Within seconds I can tell you the DVC point cost for ANY resort/room/view between now and 12/31/2011. It would take a lot of calls to AAA to gather data on different resorts / views / arrival dates.

 

[njDizFan]

there are a few of us bumping around here.:d

+1....brifraz.

 

[Master Yoda]

+1....brifraz.

Arrrrrghhhh!

 

[captainkidd]

Financing the purchase may add to the cost but it doesn't turn DVC into a losing proposition.

If you were saving 70% on 30 nights per year, I can guarantee you could absorb some interest charges and still come out far ahead.

I hate doing this, as it takes some time, but I'll give a drawn out example.

For 9 nights in the summer in a 1 bedroom villa at Wilderness Lodge requires 374 points. Points are now, what, $110 each? So, that gives you a purchase price of $41,140. At the current interest rate quoted by Disney of 12.5%, that puts you at a monthly payment (dues not included) of $602.19. Over 10 years, you have now paid $72,263 for your 9 nights per year. At $5.20 per point in dues, in that first 10 years, you've paid an additional $19,074. So, even if dues did not increase, your total in the first 10 years is $91,337. Your dues for the next 40 years would equal $77,792. Total cost for 50 years = $169,129. Divide that by 450 total nights, and you've now paid $376 per night.

If you were to pay $400 per night (and I've never paid anywhere close to that) for the same vacation time each year, it would take 46 years for DVC to pay off (not including the increase in dues.) If you want to take a more accurate amount of $300 per night for a room, it would now take 62 years for DVC to pay off (again, not including the increase in dues.)

The numbers don't lie.

If you want to stretch it just a bit further, the numbers for a 2 bedroom at WL, you would need 484 points, which over 10 years at 12.5% comes out to $93,517. Add in your $5.20 per point in dues, you've just added in an additional $25,168 for a grand total of $118,685 in 10 years. You own DVC for another 40 years, even with no price increase in dues, you're looking at an additional $100,672 over that 40 years. Total cost for 50 years = $219,357, which comes out to about $487 per night.

 

[tjkraz]

I hate doing this, as it takes some time, but I'll give a drawn out example.

For 10 nights in the summer in a 1 bedroom villa at Wilderness Lodge requires 374 points. Points are now, what, $110 each? So, that gives you a purchase price of $41,140. At the current interest rate quoted by Disney of 12.5%, that puts you at a monthly payment (dues not included) of $602.19. Over 10 years, you have now paid $72,263 for your 10 nights per year. At $5.20 per point in dues, in that first 10 years, you've paid an additional $19,074. So, even if dues did not increase, your total in the first 10 years is $91,337.

If you were to pay $400 per night (and I've never paid anywhere close to that) for the same vacation time each year, it would take 25 years for DVC to pay off (not including the increase in dues.) If you want to take a more accurate amount of $300 per night for a room, it would now take 34 years for DVC to pay off (again, not including the increase in dues.)

The numbers don't lie.

What size room are you getting for your $300-400 per night? Does that include the 12.5% resort tax? How about some actual figures--what were the exact room costs (including tax) of your last trip?

The Timeshare Store has Wilderness Lodge contracts as low as $63 per point so I'm not sure why you are using a $110 per point figure.

Buying points at the Bay Lake Tower will cost more but you get more years of ownership and dues which are significantly less than the figure you cited. Current BLT dues are $3.78 per point.

Also I believe DVC's financing rate is 10.75% however most homeowners could secure a home equity loan for about 4%.

 

[googilycub]

I find it interesting that you do not account for price increases in the rack rates over the next 20 years. There was an article in today's USA Today covering the recent increase in travel and hotel rates going up. You also left out the savings one gets in taxes if you finance. You can deduct the interest just like a mortgage loan. Factor in both of those and your example changes a lot.

 

[captainkidd]

What size room are you getting for your $300-400 per night? Does that include the 12.5% resort tax? How about some actual figures--what were the exact room costs (including tax) of your last trip?

The Timeshare Store has Wilderness Lodge contracts as low as $63 per point so I'm not sure why you are using a $110 per point figure.

Buying points at the Bay Lake Tower will cost more but you get more years of ownership and dues which are significantly less than the figure you cited. Current BLT dues are $3.78 per point.

Also I believe DVC's financing rate is 10.75% however most homeowners could secure a home equity loan for about 4%.

I never said it was an apples to apples comparison in terms of room size. What I said was, DVC tries to make it out like you are guaranteed to save tons of money, and that is not always the case. I'm using $110 because that's what Disney is currently charging. If you buy from the Timeshare Store, you only get DVC for what, another 32 years.

For our last trip, at the Polynesian, we paid $276 tax included per night.

I used $5.20 per point, as I'm using the Wilderness Lodge Villas as an example. I don't care for BLT, thus would have no interest in buying or staying there.

There's no 2 ways about it - You gotta buy resale. Buying through Disney makes zero sense.

 

[captainkidd]

I find it interesting that you do not account for price increases in the rack rates over the next 20 years. There was an article in today's USA Today covering the recent increase in travel and hotel rates going up. You also left out the savings one gets in taxes if you finance. You can deduct the interest just like a mortgage loan. Factor in both of those and your example changes a lot.

Of course rack rates are going to increase, but in my calculations, I've also left out room discounts.