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Monorail Accident
- Thread starter PatNSCT
- Start date
Slipknot
Well-Known Member
Switching the beams is done by Monorail Shop, not Central. Not to mention that the beam the monorail is on has to be powered down before they move the switch.
The_CEO
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the clarification.
Figment4Ever
Member
Capio I was there June 13th - 20th and I felt a different attitude - I chalked it up to the fact that I normally go in times that are not busy and this week was extremely hot and very crowded. Not to get this thread too far off track but I had several...loud conversations...with cast members just to get things I had already paid for, let alone not receiving any "extra magic". I'm not sure the layoffs had anything to do with it, though - I just think it depends on who you end up interacting with.
Slipknot
Well-Known Member
No problem. One other thing is that the pilot of any monorail using the spur/switch is told what to do by Shop as the pilots on the loops are told what to do by Central. I could be a little confused about that, if anyone knows...
sweetpee_1993
Well-Known Member
I've kinda been wondering about this. I know purple had passengers and pink did not. I know the Magic Kingdom was open really late that night and guests were likely taking the Epcot monorail back over to return to their cars that were parked over there. What I don't get is if Epcot had closed considerably earlier in the evening what were passengers coming from Epcot to the TTC for? Not that it's a cardinal sin or in any way factors into this equation. I'm just curious. Maybe Epcot was open later than what I was thinking it was. Maybe they just felt like riding the loop. I've done that several times in the past... :shrug:
I don't think it's been absolutely confirmed that purple was holding prior to proceeding. It's been said that purple was likely told to proceed from the area of the hold point which is normally near the handicap parking into Concourse in MAPO override because of the fact that when the switch is open (for pink to be transferring to the spur) it causes the MAPO switch to go red which would cause an e-stop if not overridden. This would also explain the extent of the damage because if purple is in forward motion he can't stop on a dime or reverse immediately if he sees pink coming at him. Pink can't stop on a dime either. You'd get a combined impact of whatever speeds both trains were moving at. Either way, yeah, pink was supposed to be reversed onto the spur by the time purple got to Concourse.
Also, there was a lot of speculation and thought that pink's pilot was negligent by not realizing he was not on the right track or not passing over the switch. I dunno. I think that's a bit harsh. If pink had accelerated to 15 mph in reverse (think of how long the entire train is here) by the time the cab has passed the switch area and realized something isn't right now he's passing Central Control on the wrong side and realizing something definitely isn't right. By the time he's springing into action Cab 6 is at the impact point. He did what he was supposed to and that's listen to what he is instructed by Central because he knows he can't see the back of his train. Like another poster said who was formerly a monorail pilot: If Central says it is is as good as gold. You do it. I used to be a law enforcement dispatch supervisor. The units on the road rely on their dispatcher and put a lot of faith in their hands. It has to be done.
That's why I asked, because I've read that EPCOT closed earlier and that the EPCOT monorail line was open just to ferry MKers back to EPCOT parking. If so, why were passengers on the train coming into TTC from EPCOT at 2am?
Monty
Brilliant...and Canadian
- In the Parks
- No
Nothing stopping monorail fans from riding the loop from TTC around EPCOT and back. :shrug:
They did say there were only seven.
Rob562
Well-Known Member
Using this video as a reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI3W2iNFVkA
It takes the train 49 seconds from its initial start out of the station until the nose of the train reaches the switch at the other side of the track. (From 1:13 to 2:02) Although I'm not a good judge of speed, the train is definitely going faster than 15MPH through a good portion of this segment, probably 20-25. A train moving at 30MPH can easily stop in a lot less time than that on full regular brakes. That distance becomes much shorter on emergency brakes. (My guess is 10 seconds or less)
So with the train going a max of 15MPH *backwards*, there still would have been enough time coming around the curve to come to a complete stop after the cab passes the switch. But if the pilot of Pink didn't realize the error until they reached the point where the cab is in the start of this video, it's too late because the rear end of the train is at the opposite end of the station, only about 2 car-lengths away from Purple.
EDIT: Using Gmaps Pedometer, I measured the distance from station to switch as being 1280 feet, just shy of 1/4 mile. Doing that distance in 49 seconds gives an average of 18MPH in the video linked above. (Most likely it was an accelleration to a max of 20-25MPH)
-Rob
soarin' cisco
New Member
Such a tragic accident. My deepest condolences go out to Austin's family, friends and fellow Cast Members.
Agreed. But it seemed odd for a family with stroller-aged children to be doing so at 2am.
TraceyC/FL
New Member
WESH just reported that NHTSA is sending an investigator out - they had been planning to rely on locals to gather the information and send it to them (because of budget concerns was why it wasn't done in the first place).
http://www.wesh.com/news/19963457/detail.html
Because their stories change with more info... this is what it says now in part:
http://www.wesh.com/news/19963457/detail.html
Because their stories change with more info... this is what it says now in part:
FreedomWrangler
Active Member
Solisimo, it's not about drinking "Flavor-Aid", as you questioned in post #983. It's about credibility. I'm as new here as you and I expect everyone to take what I say with a grain of salt. You came waltzin' in badge brandished...you get my point.
Now if you're Marni1971, post# 995, then yeah...I'm drinking his Flavor-Aid on these boards. So to speak....:slurp:
Now if you're Marni1971, post# 995, then yeah...I'm drinking his Flavor-Aid on these boards. So to speak....:slurp:
Monorail_Orange
Well-Known Member
I don't agree with the above. Now, granted, I am not, and have not been a pilot. But the former/current pilots on this board have all stated definite reasons why Pink should have realized he was not on the spur. Examining the satellite imagery, and knowing how the beams look from the trains, one can easily see the spur track next to the train - day or night. Further, note how far out the switchbeam is from Concourse. Plenty of time to realize it's not the right beam - long before Cab 6 even reached Concourse. There were several other indicators as well - most notably whether Pink lost power for a moment while the switchbeam was moved, and the actual turn onto the spur.
I also think it odd that Purple was unable to take action. I'm not sure I want to go along with the Purple was in override, panicked, and released the button and the train was immediately e-stopped theory. If releasing the MAPO override always instantly resulted in an e-stop requiring a reboot, we'd see trains stranded a lot more often during switchbeam operation - which occasionaly has to happen during operating hours. We know for sure if they let the button up, the panel practically screams at them. I would love one of our current/former pilots on here to give thier opinion on this theory, if possible.
I still think Purple had time to see Pink entering Concourse from the wrong direction, and react by stopping and reversing. I understand these trains do not stop on a dime (granted, they stop PRETTY quickly, especially in an E-stop), but there is a significant amount of time and distance to see Pink ahead and realize he's coming back toward Purple, and take action accordingly.
I am not trying to point fingers at any one person, obiviously a lot went wrong, and I believe many people involved had an opportunity to prevent this tragedy.
I think, regardless, one of the policy changes should be someone in Central at all times during switching operations.
I am afraid everyone predicting the end of monorail cab rides for guests may be right. I am really hoping against it, though.
Ziggie
Member
I apologize if this article has been posted already:
Witness says Disney monorail crash was "head-on"
By MIKE SCHNEIDER – 49 minutes ago
ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) — A witness to the monorail accident that killed a train operator at Walt Disney World over the weekend described it as "a head-on collision" between two trains in a 911 call released Monday.
"A monorail was waiting to come into the station ... or it did not leave the station, and the other one cleared through the station, and there was a head-on collision," the male caller said.
The accident occurred as the park resort was closing early Sunday and one train was being transferred off the rail line, said Zoraya Suarez, a Disney spokeswoman. She declined to describe the circumstances of the crash further.
Austin Wuennenberg, 21, died of multiple traumatic injuries in what's being considered an accident, said Sheri Blanton, a spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office in Orlando.
The Occupational Safety and Health Administration said Monday it will investigate whether workplace safety rules were broken before one monorail train crashed into another, said Mike D'Aquino, a spokesman in Atlanta for the federal agency. The investigation could take as long as six months.
If citations are issued, Disney World could be fined thousands of dollars. The Orange County Sheriff's Office in Orlando also is investigating the death.
In another 911 call, a male Disney worker described hearing "a big bang."
"There's an issue with the monorail. Something happened," the caller said. "We just heard a loud bang and my manager ran in and told me to call you."
The monorail system, which shuttles thousands of visitors around the sprawling resort each day, was shut down Sunday but Disney officials reopened it to visitors Monday afternoon. Workers performed test runs on the system earlier in the day.
Suarez said extra measures to verify that the track switches are operating properly have been put into place, although she refused to be more specific.
"All I can say is there are additional verifications," she said. "We've supplemented our safety procedures and protocol."
No guests were seriously injured in the first fatal accident in the 38-year history of the park's monorail.
The medical examiner's office won't issue a final report on Wuennenberg's death until it finishes toxicology tests, which are standard in any unexpected death, Blanton said.
Wuennenberg was a computer science student at Stetson University in nearby DeLand. Friends said he scheduled his classes around his Disney job.
Each train in the monorail system is run manually by the operator and must keep roughly 300 yards apart from each other. If a train gets too close to another, the train will automatically shut down and the operator will be replaced at the next stop, said Joseph Humphrey, a 30-year-old former Walt Disney World monorail operator, who stopped working at the resort in 2004.
A train operator has an emergency stop button at hand which can halt a train, as well as a button that can override the computer and allow the train to continue.
"For this accident to have occurred, one of two things had to happen," Humphrey said. "Either the computers had to have catastrophically just failed or someone had to have engaged an override button."
Witness says Disney monorail crash was "head-on"
By MIKE SCHNEIDER – 49 minutes ago
ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) — A witness to the monorail accident that killed a train operator at Walt Disney World over the weekend described it as "a head-on collision" between two trains in a 911 call released Monday.
"A monorail was waiting to come into the station ... or it did not leave the station, and the other one cleared through the station, and there was a head-on collision," the male caller said.
The accident occurred as the park resort was closing early Sunday and one train was being transferred off the rail line, said Zoraya Suarez, a Disney spokeswoman. She declined to describe the circumstances of the crash further.
Austin Wuennenberg, 21, died of multiple traumatic injuries in what's being considered an accident, said Sheri Blanton, a spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office in Orlando.
The Occupational Safety and Health Administration said Monday it will investigate whether workplace safety rules were broken before one monorail train crashed into another, said Mike D'Aquino, a spokesman in Atlanta for the federal agency. The investigation could take as long as six months.
If citations are issued, Disney World could be fined thousands of dollars. The Orange County Sheriff's Office in Orlando also is investigating the death.
In another 911 call, a male Disney worker described hearing "a big bang."
"There's an issue with the monorail. Something happened," the caller said. "We just heard a loud bang and my manager ran in and told me to call you."
The monorail system, which shuttles thousands of visitors around the sprawling resort each day, was shut down Sunday but Disney officials reopened it to visitors Monday afternoon. Workers performed test runs on the system earlier in the day.
Suarez said extra measures to verify that the track switches are operating properly have been put into place, although she refused to be more specific.
"All I can say is there are additional verifications," she said. "We've supplemented our safety procedures and protocol."
No guests were seriously injured in the first fatal accident in the 38-year history of the park's monorail.
The medical examiner's office won't issue a final report on Wuennenberg's death until it finishes toxicology tests, which are standard in any unexpected death, Blanton said.
Wuennenberg was a computer science student at Stetson University in nearby DeLand. Friends said he scheduled his classes around his Disney job.
Each train in the monorail system is run manually by the operator and must keep roughly 300 yards apart from each other. If a train gets too close to another, the train will automatically shut down and the operator will be replaced at the next stop, said Joseph Humphrey, a 30-year-old former Walt Disney World monorail operator, who stopped working at the resort in 2004.
A train operator has an emergency stop button at hand which can halt a train, as well as a button that can override the computer and allow the train to continue.
"For this accident to have occurred, one of two things had to happen," Humphrey said. "Either the computers had to have catastrophically just failed or someone had to have engaged an override button."
Odd way to phrase it. Is there any other way for two trains to collide?
It's interesting that they've improved their safety procedures in such a short time. Good news, but it seems fast.
Rob562
Well-Known Member
Part of the problem with witness statements like this is that from the ground, unless you can see there's a pilot in the cab, there is no way to know that Pink was really driving backwards, which is what apparently happened.
I think the only real indicator that it was moving backwards and not forwards at night would be the absence of the headlight shining in the direction the train was going. And I doubt that most people would notice that minute detail.
-Rob
Firewolfe51
Member
911 call
ok people who has heard the 911 calls made? those calls heard on the Sent. web site only PROVES dispatchers are IDIOTS......now before some decent dispatcher blast me on here you BETTER listen to those calls. Both callers notified the 911 dispatcher therehad been an accident at the TTC and one caller stated they crashed together......neither time was the caller told help was coming. They asked if anyone was injured...blah blah caller said i dont know its just bad.....blah blah. 911 operator says "well go check" THEY ARE IDIOTS.. from those calls you cannot hear any FIRE or EMS units dispatched. it doesnt matter if anyone is hurt or not if two monorails crash there needs to be a fire truck somewhere close and MOST LIKELY a couple of paramedics with a ambulance! just FYI lol i know im about to get it.. for those who like the Disney history WED enterprise developed one of the very 1ST 911 systems in the WORLD! i mean the world not WDW. and i been a paramedic for almost 20 years every SECOND counts :brick:
ok people who has heard the 911 calls made? those calls heard on the Sent. web site only PROVES dispatchers are IDIOTS......now before some decent dispatcher blast me on here you BETTER listen to those calls. Both callers notified the 911 dispatcher therehad been an accident at the TTC and one caller stated they crashed together......neither time was the caller told help was coming. They asked if anyone was injured...blah blah caller said i dont know its just bad.....blah blah. 911 operator says "well go check" THEY ARE IDIOTS.. from those calls you cannot hear any FIRE or EMS units dispatched. it doesnt matter if anyone is hurt or not if two monorails crash there needs to be a fire truck somewhere close and MOST LIKELY a couple of paramedics with a ambulance! just FYI lol i know im about to get it.. for those who like the Disney history WED enterprise developed one of the very 1ST 911 systems in the WORLD! i mean the world not WDW. and i been a paramedic for almost 20 years every SECOND counts :brick:
PhotoDave219
Well-Known Member
Cascade failure of everyone not paying attention. Such a shame.
I hope Disney really does make changes to prevent this beyond merely having a second set of eyes to verify the switch is thrown.
I'm really disappointed that the mouse doesn't have a tracking/status board to show the GPS location of every train at any given moment. The fact that they monitor this by radio is mindblowing from a safety standpoint.