Universal Epic Universe (South Expansion Complex) - Now Open!

[MisterPenguin]

 

[Sorcerer Mickey]

Does anyone know if Universal released a coffee table book about the development of EU?

 

[BrianLo]

Yeah, theme parks take a long time for ROI because of their large price tag for brand new infrastructure, attractions and lodging.

But ya know. Five years ago EPCOT spent over 2 billion to have wha we have now.
Galactic Starcruiser...yeah.
Two new shows in the park that has star wars billions was included in the discount just six years ago and just got two new shows.

So don't act like Disney does not have price tags too. Not a knock on Disney, but they all do. And Disney has been seen as overspending billions. Remember Guardians cost over half a billion alone as Disney's most expensive attraction ever built. Even as a successful attraction. It takes time for ROI, and then you habe Rat, the front of the park redesign, infsatrcture, Moana etc.

But for a new park, EPIC is not having some concerning financial issues in regards to current performance. Clearly.

How could one not see it as a venture? By definition, a new theme park going into business is.

No need to mince my words. No one ever called the Epcot redo the most successful venture since Magic Kingdom. But you keep calling Epic a more successful venture than original EPCOT center.

This reminds me of calling Epic superior than Tokyo Disney Sea. The hyperbole is just unnecessary and invites unnecessary conversation and criticism that then bothers you. It’s a great park, stop setting the benchmark of success in the stratosphere.

It simply doesn’t have the capacity for the dollar spend to pull off what you demand of it, which also doesn’t make it bad.

 

[DarkMetroid567]

A lot could happen and fizzle gojng forward. I have mentioned that. And I speak in terms of success for Universal and shift in current market share that is obvious to see the venture a success. No one should ever think that woth established resort and CP/CM base and current passholder that the number of guests will be ever or certainly not recently shown.
Disneyland Paris was park 1 of a new market and flopped because of the contempt many had for it.

You’re right that there aren’t 1:1 comparisons here. I still think thoughts on the current market share are premature — our only hard numbers are based on what the existing parks have done to wrangle attendance. Epic has played a role in that business strategy, but the impact of Epic itself is still very unclear.

My Disneyland Paris comparison is more this: Disneyland Paris was an incredible product, but became a massive financial burden on the company. It’s possible for Epic to become the same.

 

[celluloid]

You’re right that there aren’t 1:1 comparisons here. I still think thoughts on the current market share are premature — our only hard numbers are based on what the existing parks have done to wrangle attendance. Epic has played a role in that business strategy, but the impact of Epic itself is still very unclear.

My Disneyland Paris comparison is more this: Disneyland Paris was an incredible product, but became a massive financial burden on the company. It’s possible for Epic to become the same.

Right. No one here is victory lapping it as a ten year success because one can't, and no one fairly, should be calling it immediate or forecasting a failure either.

But presently, it is a hit new thing without a doubt. And the demand has grown smoothly thus far, not shrank.

 

[flynnibus]

No one discredited EPCOT's success. I specifically said this. Read entire discussions before posting.

Dude, you doubled down... then started backtracking and then put the goal posts on your back. I read the discussion... it was rediculous assertions and why I even said something. Don't try to flip this on me.

All this and you want to compare Shanghai Disneyland in Mainland China to EPIC Universe in Orlando? You think being China vs third theme park at that resort in Orlando has something to do with it?

Do I? No, you were the one who compared Epic's opening to everything since MK. Reap what you sow. You make redonkulus hypothesis... people are going to test it and show it's flaws. You doubled down on EPCOT selling 'discount' admission as some sort of filter... so you get an example that again debunks your theory without that filter constraint. That's how logic works.

(Shanghai Disney also allows Cast Members and families in and is Disney's first and only theme park of that resort with no other resorts quite like it around)

So now you are claiming EPIC should only be compared to parks that must
1) have other parks near by
2) can not offer multi-day discounts
3) must not allow employee admissions
How about ones that only can be open 10-10 too? You're response to the flaws in your claim is to simply keep applying filters so the only answer that can matter is your predisposed conclusion. It's a horrible look.

I covered all that when I said relative venture. But you are so quick to type all that out to prove something that just agrees with me.

'relative venture'? You mean "when you only compare what I want you to compare..."

Universal Epic Universe is a smaller capacity park than Maigic Kingdom, Animal Kingdom or EPCOT, and yet it is still near selling out even with these permitters.

How does smaller capacity make selling out harder??

Yeah, its pretty dang a hit. Why do you think they are not selling expensive pass add ons early on for this light summer where the attendance is still selling well? Becuase attendance and guest spending is up. GSATS are upper for the park.

Because ITS BRAND FREAKING NEW??

Uni would not charge more a day for EPIC than their other parks if it was doing anything lesser. The express pass demand very high valued in comparison and selling out.

Because its BRAND FREAKING NEW?

And all this on a year that people predict a lighter summer?

Because its BRAND FREAKING NEW? And a major draw as a whole new theme park??

Any other park opening you know of getting people well in and staying onsite when Annual Passes are not offered outside of Asia?

Any other I'd offer, you'd just respond with another new screening requirement.

EPIC is a hit of a third park for a resort that has also had the most recent major theme park ground up opening in Central FL in 1999. They were the last to open one and most recent to open one. And in the theme park saturated market, the park is having a successful third at their resort.

Why the hard on for 'third park' now as some major criteria? The population going right now don't care if it's 1 or 10 parks.. They are going because of what EPIC is offering itself. 1,3,5, whatever is about length of stay and creating the initial draw. Central FL already has the initial draw. UNI is exclusing Epic from any practical length of stay computations. The whole third park thing is about UNI increasing it's hotels and overall days per guest... not about if people are interested in seeing Epic. Because... ITS BRAND FREAKING NEW.

And third park? Are you now going back on the company line that Volcano bay has been their 3rd park for how many years now? Funny how that lingo suddenly changed... The whole 'first theme park opening in...' thing must have been beat into every influencer's head in their sessions because nearly every single one droned on that same talking point. Either, they are all too young to remember anything, or they were lapping up the talking points. There have been other theme park openings.. just none in their backyard.

Disney wishes they could sell 16,000 to 22,000 full price tickets a day to any park not Magic Kingdom. (and even that one rarely gets those numbers outside of peak times of near full price admission)

Yeah, let's compare the BRAND FREAKING NEW park that almost no one has been to... to the parks that after 30+ years... most people have at least been to before. Yeah.. totally the same thing!

 

[flynnibus]

The park that just opened two new shows, has an event enticing summer program and features Star Wars should not be having to resort to that.
It could be having to do with a lot of neglect and lack of substance in new additions as they remove other things.(you could insert this elsewhere too)

And I think a white collar office worker should have the awareness that the business model of the entire ecosystem is more complex than just the gate admission price of a single park...

 

[MisterPenguin]

How successful can EU be without cupcakes?

 

[flynnibus]

So Universal is more expensive than Disney. I wonder how long it will be before the media starts complaining about that.

Probably at a point where things stabalize and we're not talking about... a park that just opened.

UNI has been more expensive than Disney pretty much since the success of Harry Potter.. it's just not talked about much because overall people were still spending more at Disney because they were staying longer at Disney.

It will be interesting to see how trip durations settle in over the next 12-24months.

 

[flynnibus]

Have a stay scheduled for January at Shades of Green will be doing Universal have no desire for WDW appears Universal has WDW beat on admission price another plus

Why stay at the SoG if only doing Uni? That's a lot of commute and potential expense for that venue. SoG is nice to be onsite, but if not focused onsite, you should be able to do way better up I4... unless you are getting like the "I was just an E3" price from MWR

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

Before morphing into a general audience service, Disney+'s clientele at the start were 60% homes without children.

It only made sense at that point to switch from family (kids) to general (adults and kids).

I agree it was a very smart business decision, I also think it kind of highlights the risk of a future nostalgia problem though, Disney adults are diehard Disney fans, I’m not sure Disney is creating enough new diehard fans to replace us.

ETA we often notice how out of balance the demographics are at DL, I’d say we see probably 9 adults for every kid, that could just highlight the economics of who can afford it but it also could highlight who it appeals to.

Price and value are two different things.

So Universal is more expensive than Disney. I wonder how long it will be before the media starts complaining about that.

Quoted both these posts because they both brought about the same question and I don’t know the answer… does Epic offer/require a form of multi ride pass / individual ride pass to make the park manageable?

I ask because we loved our last WDW trip (with $100 a day of LL extras) but that also drastically changed the price of the ticket. As a rare WDW visitor I can’t imagine going to WDW without paying for LL so I view it as a mandatory part of the price, that also vastly changes the value ratio though.

 

[flynnibus]

And I speak in terms of success for Universal and shift in current market share that is obvious to see the venture a success

And now you are making market share conclusions based on just seeing UNI's ticket sales?

That's not how any of this works...

 

[celluloid]

And now you are making market share conclusions based on just seeing UNI's ticket sales?

That's not how any of this works...

Just? No. In part. Well duh. They have a brand new product and people spending as much on their other offerings while their new one has not had issue. No sign of cannibalization yet.

The laws of Supply and demand itself tell something.
You can also check out Thrill Data and such in the mean time.
Disney selling their three days for about half the price of Uni's three days tells you something.

The main competition showed their cards here the second WALT DISNEY WORLD in SUMMER to have a campaign and extra budgeted events called Cool Kid Summer.

The second Disney had to market to remind families there is a lot to see there and worth checking put this Summer...is all you need to look to to know the impact vs what Josh says and hopes people could do woth enticement.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Quoted both these posts because they both brought about the same question and I don’t know the answer… does Epic offer/require a form of multi ride pass / individual ride pass to make the park manageable?

I ask because we loved our last WDW trip (with $100 a day of LL extras) but that also drastically changed the price of the ticket. As a rare WDW visitor I can’t imagine going to WDW without paying for LL so I view it as a mandatory part of the price.

It depends on how much they continue to restrict attendance. The park has the least attraction capacity of the three Universal Orlando Resort theme parks.

 

[celluloid]

Dude, you doubled down... then started backtracking and then put the goal posts on your back. I read the discussion... it was rediculous assertions and why I even said something. Don't try to flip this on me.



Do I? No, you were the one who compared Epic's opening to everything since MK. Reap what you sow. You make redonkulus hypothesis... people are going to test it and show it's flaws. You doubled down on EPCOT selling 'discount' admission as some sort of filter... so you get an example that again debunks your theory without that filter constraint. That's how logic works.


So now you are claiming EPIC should only be compared to parks that must
1) have other parks near by
2) can not offer multi-day discounts
3) must not allow employee admissions
How about ones that only can be open 10-10 too? You're response to the flaws in your claim is to simply keep applying filters so the only answer that can matter is your predisposed conclusion. It's a horrible look.


'relative venture'? You mean "when you only compare what I want you to compare..."


How does smaller capacity make selling out harder??


Because ITS BRAND FREAKING NEW??


Because its BRAND FREAKING NEW?

Because its BRAND FREAKING NEW? And a major draw as a whole new theme park??


Any other I'd offer, you'd just respond with another new screening requirement.



Why the hard on for 'third park' now as some major criteria? The population going right now don't care if it's 1 or 10 parks.. They are going because of what EPIC is offering itself. 1,3,5, whatever is about length of stay and creating the initial draw. Central FL already has the initial draw. UNI is exclusing Epic from any practical length of stay computations. The whole third park thing is about UNI increasing it's hotels and overall days per guest... not about if people are interested in seeing Epic. Because... ITS BRAND FREAKING NEW.

And third park? Are you now going back on the company line that Volcano bay has been their 3rd park for how many years now? Funny how that lingo suddenly changed... The whole 'first theme park opening in...' thing must have been beat into every influencer's head in their sessions because nearly every single one droned on that same talking point. Either, they are all too young to remember anything, or they were lapping up the talking points. There have been other theme park openings.. just none in their backyard.


Yeah, let's compare the BRAND FREAKING NEW park that almost no one has been to... to the parks that after 30+ years... most people have at least been to before. Yeah.. totally the same thing!

This is an wild take. WDW's third park, MGM never had 20,000 paying people in it daily in its firs year ever, and that was Disney's third park pre Uni competition. IOA and Animal Kingdom in late 90s never did either. DCA of course did not.

I don't have to flip it. The thing I said remains true. There are just people that do not like it.

And with this, even if you don't like the compaison, you would admit market share shifting yet try to rip on that later
Stay in your lane and like others pretend you don't remember me calling out months ago attendance for this park would eventually go above 30,000 cap daily as it is not s low as many wished, because they wish I'll.


And brand new is irrelevant. A lot of new thing flop.

 

[flynnibus]

Just? No. In part. Well duh. They have a brand new product and people spending as much on their other offerings while their new one has not had issue. No sign of cannibalization yet.

The laws of Supply and demand itself tell something.
You can also check out Thrill Data and such in the mean time.
Disney selling their three days for about half the price of Uni's three days tells you something.

Dude, conclusions based on data in isolation is a classic fail.

You're talking about supply and demand.. and canabalization in a market that is completely constrained right now with a product that is brand new and dis-similar. People concluding bigger trends from these bespoke conditions would be foolish.

The second Disney had to remind d families there is a lot to see there and worth checking put this Summer...is all you need to look to to know the impact vs what Josh says and hopes people could do woth enticement.

Disney's summer season and their demand shaping over the full year is not a game they are going to stop, flip, and pivot over trying to react to EPIC's opening. This is the difference between Disney working on the big picture while you are looking at a 6 week timeframe.

 

[celluloid]

Dude, conclusions based on data in isolation is a classic fail.

You're talking about supply and demand.. and canabalization in a market that is completely constrained right now with a product that is brand new and dis-similar. People concluding bigger trends from these bespoke conditions would be foolish.


Disney's summer season and their demand shaping over the full year is not a game they are going to stop, flip, and pivot over trying to react to EPIC's opening. This is the difference between Disney working on the big picture while you are looking at a 6 week timeframe.

This only logically checks put of their competition also does not focus on the big picture, wich we know woth their aggressive Investments they are not.

Take the L here. Epic has more people paying that ticket daily than Disney's parks, and people have a hard time accepting how great that is for the park, and unheard of since MK. Every other park since has had add on Incentives to extreme discounted stays for parks two and three. Passholders, length of stay tickets with a few bucks by days three and four, and thousands of CP/CMs and their family/friend comp passes in daily.


EPIC has not had to do this at all.for it's first season.
All guests are in paying above that 139 and making those ancillary purchases like they will habe to pay that to come back, which until that demand dips...they do.

 

[flynnibus]

This is an wild take. WDW's third park, MGM never had 20,000 paying people in it daily in its firs year ever, and that was Disney's third park pre Uni competition. IOA and Animal Kingdom in late 90s never did either. DCA of course did not.

So again.. you keep only comparing to what you want to compare to based on criteria to filter out the ones that challenge your assertion.

MGM was a small park, but a key part of a puzzle that drove WDW from two parks with just 5 hotels to a mega property with nearly a dozen more hotels, additional parks, and more in the following decade.

Stop staring at your toes and look at the path ahead.

 

[celluloid]

Does anyone know if Universal released a coffee table book about the development of EU?

That would be cool in the future. As of now, no. Books habe a lower profit margin compared to volume of other things to sale.

The 45 dollar Dark Universe Vinyl has been selling dang well.
And the dragon eggs.

 

[celluloid]

So again.. you keep only comparing to what you want to compare to based on criteria to filter out the ones that challenge your assertion.

MGM was a small park, but a key part of a puzzle that drove WDW from two parks with just 5 hotels to a mega property with nearly a dozen more hotels, additional parks, and more in the following decade.

Stop staring at your toes and look at the path ahead.

Almost like Uni also just built a set of hotels with EPIC...after opening more than four in the last 10 years.


What kind of ahead is in store for the path(broken light filled and overspent) at EPCOT?