MK Cars-Themed Attractions at Magic Kingdom

[Andrew25]

My hope is that they hear feedback and at least keep the waterfront near Frontierland. (Gray line is path between HM and BTM)

 

[HauntedPirate]

See above

That's not mocking him, that's asking a question. And I also think it's well within his purview to sketch out an idea in response to an announced plan if he feels like it. He's earned it.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Zanetti stated that he talked to an industrial engineer working on this project. Are you saying that the Cars project would not need any kind of industrial engineer that would collaborate with the structural and civil engineers?

Need to collaborate? Not really. An urban planner / industrial engineer is going to be concerned with things like crowd flow. It’s bigger picture. They’d define and guide certain programmatic requirements like minimum path widths and restrooms requirements. It’s generally not an active design role once it’s at the project stage. The architect and landscape architect would also be intermediaries between industrial design and the civil and structural engineers. The structural engineer is typically hired by the architect. In theme parks, while civil engineers can do things like walkway and building layouts, it’s considered more purely technical work and they follow the design lead set by others.

Again, it’s like someone claiming they learned about Catholicism from a rabbi. They could know, can be involved in various inter-faith activities, but its third hand information being filtered through someone who doesn’t realize that there’s an important distinction between a rabbi and a priest.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Saying RoA threatens a flood in the utilidors strains credulity.

There are already ponds and waterways going directly over the utilidors... why aren't they threatening floods in the utilidors?

RoA is a giant concrete pond. If overflow from a rainstorm is the issue... then that's true everywhere, and would have already been an issue many times over.

If the concrete base breaks and leaks, then welcome to Florida. Dig a little hole and you hit water. The entirety of the utilidors walls are water barriers.

He heard this from an Imagineer? We can find imagineers who believe Horizons was on a sink hole and the Yeti is connected to the the mountain's infrastructure and is cracking its concrete base.

Also, we've heard from time-tested insiders over the years that WDW has always been considering removing RoA. And not because it leaks or threatens utilidor flooding.

If RoA was a true threat to WDW infrastructure, would not Disney themselves say this, so as to alleviate the backlash? RoA is going because Disney wants it gone as the easy solution to long-delayed expansion and to monetize new D and E Ticket rides. Iger himself has stated the reason for all this Capex.... the parks make money. And so, they're investing in money-making. That's the C-suite reasoning. (Not mine)

 

[DarkMetroid567]

tbf eddie deserves to be mocked at least a little bit

 

[lazyboy97o]

yeah…. It gets tricky. Anyone who gets paid from WDI is technically “an imagineer” but then there are “Imagineers” like Tony, Joe, Marty, Kevin, Bob, Kim, etc….

Even some of these people at times haven’t been the most reliable. Ever heard the story about the colorblind bulldozer operator? Marty just completely made that up and even admitted it.

 

[MisterPenguin]

See above

I'm not mocking Eddie.

I'm mocking those who took his comment as a sign that Disney's going to cave on going ahead with Cars.

Look! Eddie liked that post about Disney changing their mind because of backlash! We have hope the RoA will be saved!!!​

Then Eddie shows he's not really thinking that RoA will be saved by sketching out an alternative to save it in some way.

<sad trombone>

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

tbf eddie deserves to be mocked at least a little bit

Why?

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

Even some of these people at times haven’t been the most reliable. Ever heard the story about the colorblind bulldozer operator? Marty just completely made that up and even admitted it.

Oh for sure - they aren’t infallible. But nobody is.

 

[J4546]

Phase 1: Walls go up, northern loop and backstage area is filled in and prepped to build on for phase 2. keep the southern loop, rebuild the liberty bell as a permanent structure and use it plus covered que area as seating or something else. Keep Island and build permanent bridge on northern edge to new pathway looping around it, connecting BTM to HM area. Make bridge high enough off wter to allow canoes to return. Also redo HM que during phase 1 as well and give it a DL treatment and place it beside showbuilding instead of on waterfront.

Phase 2: Walls come down and now you can pick eith Villains Land or Cars land but either one is build out of sight and will very little park disruption to guests. Id go villains land first but regrdles, Cars would go Beyond big thunder. On the NW plot of land behind it and connect to Villains land as well.

Phase 2 would also include rebuilding/raising the train tracks similar to what they did in DL to seperate GE from the park and allow a few tunnls to connet from Villains to Cars for optimal guest flow.

 

[flynnibus]

Saying RoA threatens a flood in the utilidors strains credulity.

But this line of thinking doesn't help...

There are already ponds and waterways going directly over the utilidors... why aren't they threatening floods in the utilidors?

Because an issue with facilities is usually a specific interaction - not a generalization. Meaning... "we have a flooding issue" can mean you have a specific issue with a site, not that "all buildings of this type will have flooding issues"

RoA is a giant concrete pond. If overflow from a rainstorm is the issue... then that's true everywhere, and would have already been an issue many times over.

Again this is a really flawed comment. Do you really know anything about the water management states around the park on a weekly basis? Do any of us? Besides what we observe from guest areas. That really has little to do with strain or not in what the system is coping with, well or poorly.

If the concrete base breaks and leaks, then welcome to Florida. Dig a little hole and you hit water. The entirety of the utilidors walls are water barriers.

Concrete wicks and seeps water - that's why your home has water proofing systems around the foundation. Also, water under your foundation is a bad bad thing for poor tensile products like Concrete.

If RoA was a true threat to WDW infrastructure, would not Disney themselves say this, so as to alleviate the backlash?

For the same reason Disney never airs their dirty laundry about upkeep, or facilities types of debates. It's not part of the product people consume.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Because an issue with facilities is usually a specific interaction - not a generalization. Meaning... "we have a flooding issue" can mean you have a specific issue with a site, not that "all buildings of this type will have flooding issues"

The utilidors is a singular system built at the same time. Yes, building have isolated problems, but issues with the waterproofing of a large segment of wall is the type of condition that justifies assuming a bigger, more fundamental issue and not an isolated incident.

Concrete wicks and seeps water - that's why your home has water proofing systems around the foundation. Also, water under your foundation is a bad bad thing for poor tensile products like Concrete.

The river bed though is only supporting itself. If it fails then there really aren’t any consequences. It’s not even like a swimming pool where you’re trying to maintain treated water.

 

[Disstevefan1]

The gaslighting has begun.

"You don't understand, RoA is a hazard and must be removed"

The reality is, Disney does not want to pay to maintain a space in the park that does not generate LL sales!

Carsland (should) be lower maintenance than RoA, TSI and the riverboat and Carsland will generate LL sales.

Unless this attraction totally fails due to operational and maintenance issues. This could happen since Disney has proven they cant even do in ground lighting in 2024 while the 1982 in ground lighting worked well for decades.

 

[Bocabear]

I am reminded of Rocket Rods as a cautionary tale...the biggest flop in Disney Theme Park History....that one ride took out 3 viable attractions (sound familiar?)...and then failed miserably... They have still not fully recovered from it....and it has been 25 years since it's closure...

 

[Streetway Again]

The reality is, Disney does not want to pay to maintain a space in the park that does not generate LL sales!

Maybe two things can be true.

 

[Disstevefan1]

Maybe two things can be true.

What's the other thing?

 

[Disney Analyst]

The utilidors do not go up against the Rivers of America, not even some top secret area not included on the publicly available maps. This can be seen in the various overlays that people have done over the years. It can also be seen in just looking at photos of the river bed and how it is constructed, which is as a simple mat. Nor do those photos show an area being patched to try and slow the leaks. An undocumented section would also need egress points which do not pop up in Frontierland along the water’s edge.

Disney undertook a massive, pre-emptive asbestos abatement program back around the turn of the century. The Magic Kingdom and utilidors were the primary focus. This is why the Shooting Gallery space has not been sealed off for abatement while it is being converted into a DVC lounge, they did that work years ago. Asbestos that is in place and in good condition is not what is dangerous, it’s damaged asbestos that is dangerous. It was also mostly used in insulation and fire protection products.

Let’s though assume the information relayed is correct. That the utilidors do go right up to the Rivers of America and that area is full of asbestos. First, if the area is damaged and leaky, then that means the asbestos is damaged and Disney is exposing thousands of employees day in and day out. Second, a wall that is designed to hold up against water wouldn’t have the same structural design as one intended to hold up soil. Last, and this is the important one, a leaky wall means water is already able to get into it. Despite how things were over half a century ago, the utilidors are a basement condition and will remain a basement condition after these projects are complete. If water can get into now then it will still be able to get in even after the body of water is gone. Water will still be in the ground and following along those same pathways that it is following now. The utilidors are also made of reinforced concrete, so everyday that water coming through is corroding the steel rebar that gives the concrete its strength. All together, what’s being described isn’t “some ops issues” but gross negligence putting employees and guests at serious risk. This isn’t something they can just wait on, especially if the fix is somehow in the billion dollar range (that’s not how much it should cost to replace a concrete wall). And yet they haven’t even bothered to put up a cofferdam to relieve the stress on the wall and dramatically slow the leaking.

That billion dollar price tag is also something to consider. We’re talking about replacing a concrete wall and it’s a number that’s just too high. Universal excavated a new basement under existing buildings for The Bourne Stuntacular and such costs would have made that prohibitive. Disney hasn’t aggressively pursued buying back the Marvel rights for Florida in part because it would add too much cost to projects. New, different work, would cost more than going with a version of what exists, and so these new lands already have a billion+ against them with nothing to show for it?

You also think CFTOD was searching for any dumb thing to point to as a problem and just decided to ignore this? Actual public danger in the world’s busiest theme park was not juicy enough? And then not just this specific issue but the whole system being inadequate? That everybody there is more loyal to the ousted leadership? The same for the South Florida Water Management District which also oversees the area?

The real cherry on top though is citing an urban planner / industrial engineer. Those are generally different things but could overlap in a theme park as they deal with master planning and crowd flow. Neither though is a discipline that would be involved in any aspect of this supposed issue, which would be civil and structural engineering. It’s like saying you learned something about Catholic beliefs from a rabbi. The rabbi is a religious leader and may know, but it’s a rather silly authority to reference. Zanetti not only doesn’t know the technical material involved but doesn’t even know who would.

For a name like Lazyboy, this post was not lazy enough for my liking.

 

[Disstevefan1]

I am reminded of Rocket Rods as a cautionary tale...the biggest flop in Disney Theme Park History....that one ride took out 3 viable attractions (sound familiar?)...and then failed miserably... They have still not fully recovered from it....and it has been 25 years since it's closure...

This is my biggest fear about Carsland in MK and it could happen.

 

[flynnibus]

The utilidors is a singular system built at the same time. Yes, building have isolated problems, but issues with the waterproofing of a large segment of wall is the type of condition that justifies assuming a bigger, more fundamental issue and not an isolated incident.

It's also a fairly large system spanning multiple types of spaces and locations. It was a dumb generalization. It's perfectly plausible to have an issue in one area, and not others.. and to infer it's impossible because everywhere isn't a problem is just dumb.

The river bed though is only supporting itself. If it fails then there really aren’t any consequences. It’s not even like a swimming pool where you’re trying to maintain treated water.

It's also not purely isolated - but part of a network. I won't even begin to assume we know everything they manage about that element and the infrastructure it interacts with. What we do know is it's a 50+year old piece of infrastructure that also deals with water. Not usually a combination that means 'care free'.

 

[lazyboy97o]

It's also a fairly large system spanning multiple types of spaces and locations. It was a dumb generalization. It's perfectly plausible to have an issue in one area, and not others.. and to infer it's impossible because everywhere isn't a problem is just dumb.

The types of spaces in the utilidors don’t vary enough that they’d have that major of an impact on the building envelope. Nobody said it wasn’t plausible to have an isolated issue. It’s an issue of scale. The “alleged” problem isn’t something small, but something huge. That would point to a larger, more fundamental design problem.

It's also not purely isolated - but part of a network. I won't even begin to assume we know everything they manage about that element and the infrastructure it interacts with. What we do know is it's a 50+year old piece of infrastructure that also deals with water. Not usually a combination that means 'care free'.

Nobody said “care free”. That it’s not isolated is why it wouldn’t be a problem. The reason the water management systems all over Florida use ponds and not something like cisterns is because getting water to the ground is a major goal. It already connects to and feeds a system that puts water into the ground, including ground in close proximity. The Rivers of America has a concrete bed because it is easier to maintain for show and the riverboat. They’re not building a new concrete basin elsewhere to replace the Rivers of America.