News Zootopia and Moana Blue Sky concepts for Disney's Animal Kingdom

[drnilescrane]

Disney's made a bad habit of this -- the same could be said about the entire Wonders of Life pavilion (as well as smaller stuff like the Tomorrowland Terrace and the upstairs shop at Canada). Yes, they lost the sponsor for Wonders of Life... so what? It's not like they needed sponsorship to keep it going. They still opened it seasonally years after the sponsorship was lost before finally shutting it down entirely.

If it's unpopular or only marginally popular - which is a legitimate accusation that can be leveled at Stitch's Great Escape and Body Wars - why bother operating it then the cost to benefit ratio (guest satisfaction) doesn't make sense?

 

[UNCgolf]

If it's unpopular or only marginally popular - which is a legitimate accusation that can be leveled at Stitch's Great Escape and Body Wars - why bother operating it then the cost to benefit ratio (guest satisfaction) doesn't make sense?

Because the parks don't have enough capacity. It's essentially impossible that those attractions were unpopular enough that merely existing as options didn't increase overall guest satisfaction (not to mention Wonders of Life offered far more than just Body Wars), if only due to downstream effects.

And, while I'm sure they try, there's really no way to effectively measure a cost to benefit ratio on an individual attraction unless it was so unpopular as to be essentially unused. There are far too many variables involved. It's also not like they've stopped operating anything else in the parks that doesn't draw a crowd.

None of that really matters to the topic, though. The problem is that they shuttered those spaces and then left them sitting empty for years rather than replace them, which just exacerbates the capacity issues. They're abandoned.

 

[drnilescrane]

Because the parks don't have enough capacity.

Reservations. Fixed.

Because the parks don't have enough capacity. It's essentially impossible that those attractions were unpopular enough that merely existing as options didn't increase overall guest satisfaction (not to mention Wonders of Life offered far more than just Body Wars), if only due to downstream effects.

It's also not like they've stopped operating anything else in the parks that doesn't draw a crowd.

It's not necessarily not drawing a crowd, but certain attractions have been so... disliked... that they're better being closed. Superstar Limo is an infamous example and Stitch was pretty unliked by the end.

And, while I'm sure they try, there's really no way to effectively measure a cost to benefit ratio on an individual attraction unless it was so unpopular as to be essentially unused. There are far too many variables involved.

Essentially in the surveys they send out, they ask you to rate an experience on a scale from 1 to 10. Let's say > 7 is "excellent". An attraction gets "revenue" from the main gate based on its contribution to overall park capacity divided by the amount of guests who rate the experience as "excellent". You need > 80% of guests to rate an attraction as excellent to get the full reimbursement. You also get credit for the sponsorship money. So take Wonders of Life - if few people are rating it excellent, and it looses a sponsor, then suddenly it's in the red.

You then compare the overall park sentiment of people who did ride the attraction and compare it to those who didn't. If it's lower, then clearly there is a problem.

You've got to think like an MBA - if you can't measure it you can't manage it.

 

[UNCgolf]

It's not necessarily not drawing a crowd, but certain attractions have been so... disliked... that they're better being closed. Superstar Limo is an infamous example and Stitch was pretty unliked by the end.

Sure, but I mentioned that. That's an incredibly rare occurrence and certainly doesn't apply to the Wonders of Life pavilion.

Essentially in the surveys they send out, they ask you to rate an experience on a scale from 1 to 10. Let's say > 7 is "excellent". An attraction gets "revenue" from the main gate based on its contribution to overall park capacity divided by the amount of guests who rate the experience as "excellent". You need > 80% of guests to rate an attraction as excellent to get the full reimbursement. You also get credit for the sponsorship money. So take Wonders of Life - if few people are rating it excellent, and it looses a sponsor, then suddenly it's in the red.

You then compare the overall park sentiment of people who did ride the attraction and compare it to those who didn't. If it's lower, then clearly there is a problem.

This is my point, though. That's not especially useful information because of all the variables it doesn't capture -- it doesn't surprise me that Disney uses it that way, but that's bordering on being junk data from a statistical standpoint.

Anyways, I edited my post while you were responding to point out that none of this is really pertinent. The problem is the lack of a replacement -- even if Wonders of Life, Tomorrowland Terrace, Stitch, and other closed spaces around the parks were so despised that they were actually making the parks worse, that's no excuse to just abandon them without a replacement when the parks lack capacity.

 

[drnilescrane]

Anyways, I edited my post before you responded to point out that none of this is really pertinent. The problem is the lack of a replacement.

Well, the argument could be made in a wholistic sense that getting new popular attractions on that side of the park between 2003 and 2007 - Mission:Space, Soarin', Seas with Nemo and Friends, Dench redo of SSE, Innoventions re-theme - was the replacement. Test Track too.

They didn't close Horizons and World of Motion, and aren't closing Dinosaur, because they are mustache twisting villains.

 

[UNCgolf]

Well, the argument could be made in a wholistic sense that getting new popular attractions on that side of the park between 2003 and 2007 - Mission:Space, Soarin', Seas with Nemo and Friends, Dench redo of SSE, Innoventions Retime - was the replacement. Test Track too.

They didn't close Horizons and World of Motion, and aren't closing Dinosaur, because they are mustache twisting villains.

Where did I suggest anything remotely like this? Horizons and World of Motion were replaced; they weren't left as abandoned spaces. They're not relevant to this discussion -- neither is Dinosaur, since if it closes, it will be for a replacement.

Also, Mission: Space and especially Nemo aren't very popular, and Test Track opened a decade before Wonders of Life closed.

 

[drnilescrane]

Horizons and World of Motion were replaced; they weren't left as abandoned spaces.

But overall the park capacity remained constant/grew. My point is the attraction menu at a theme park is additive, getting the mix right is important and maybe it's OK not to directly replace a specific venue and maybe it's better to keep something closed that isn't pulling it's weight instead of capacity at any cost.

Also, Mission: Space and especially Nemo aren't very popular, and Test Track opened a decade before Wonders of Life closed.

Point taken - my point was more they did add a lot to Epcot in that decade.

 

[UNCgolf]

But overall the park capacity remained constant/grew. My point is the attraction menu at a theme park is additive, getting the mix right is important and maybe it's OK not to directly replace a specific venue and maybe it's better to keep something closed that isn't pulling it's weight instead of capacity at any cost.

I'm actually pretty sure park capacity was lost -- in fact, EPCOT probably has less capacity now than it did in the early to mid-1990s even with actual additions like Ratatouille and Soarin' -- but it goes beyond that. Having empty venues in the middle of the park causes other problems, especially when it's something as large as the former Wonders of Life sitting there in plain sight of all guests (at least Stitch is more or less hidden).

Plus, we were talking about more than attractions. Dining venues and shops have also been abandoned, and those help with capacity too.

 

[OSUPhantom]

Moana, to me, feels like a decent fit for AK both in theme and the ability to transform Dinoland into a Polynesia/Pacific Islands area. It could create for some very cool environments and exhibits for the wildlife and culture of the area.

 

[Rich Brownn]

Yes, capacity AND popularity. It's also not only about capacity as Buzz, Pooh, Mad Tea Party, Barnstormer and Indy Speedway all with similar or lower capacity don't get the same wait times.

They also board more than 2 people at a time. And the raceway does more when all 4 tracks are operating.

 

[Rich Brownn]

But overall the park capacity remained constant/grew. My point is the attraction menu at a theme park is additive, getting the mix right is important and maybe it's OK not to directly replace a specific venue and maybe it's better to keep something closed that isn't pulling it's weight instead of capacity at any cost.



Point taken - my point was more they did add a lot to Epcot in that decade.

Part of the issue in EPCOT was the rides removed people from the park for 12-15 minutes not counting the queue. So just on one side you had Energy (45 min); Horizons (12) and World of Motion(14) at opening - thats 71 minutes in the ride. Now it's Guardians (3) Space (5) TT (6) - for a total of 14 minutes. So more people in queues and walkways and the feeling that there's "not much to do".

 

[Tha Realest]

Part of the issue in EPCOT was the rides removed people from the park for 12-15 minutes not counting the queue. So just on one side you had Energy (45 min); Horizons (12) and World of Motion(14) at opening - thats 71 minutes in the ride. Now it's Guardians (3) Space (5) TT (6) - for a total of 14 minutes. So more people in queues and walkways and the feeling that there's "not much to do".

They want those people eating and drinking and shopping

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

Part of the issue in EPCOT was the rides removed people from the park for 12-15 minutes not counting the queue. So just on one side you had Energy (45 min); Horizons (12) and World of Motion(14) at opening - thats 71 minutes in the ride. Now it's Guardians (3) Space (5) TT (6) - for a total of 14 minutes. So more people in queues and walkways and the feeling that there's "not much to do".

I am not sure how excluding the queue time is relevant to a discussion regarding times removing people from the park. If the idea is to somehow measure the amount of time each ride occupies a persons time outside of just wandering around the park, then the queue time has to be considered. I don't think TT has ever just taken up 6Min of my time at Epcott. And while i don't ride GotG, it has never been just 3 minutes that I have been waiting for my family to ride it.

And while I don't subscribe much to the discussions on capacity for capacity's sake, or just needing people eaters as opposed to revue/attendance generating highlight rides, if the discussion is about time doing things (and maybe personal preference i have never felt like the queu of TT, building your car, was not much to do, then you have to consider queue time in the mix.

 

[UNCgolf]

I am not sure how excluding the queue time is relevant to a discussion regarding times removing people from the park. If the idea is to somehow measure the amount of time each ride occupies a persons time outside of just wandering around the park, then the queue time has to be considered. I don't think TT has ever just taken up 6Min of my time at Epcott. And while i don't ride GotG, it has never been just 3 minutes that I have been waiting for my family to ride it.

And while I don't subscribe much to the discussions on capacity for capacity's sake, or just needing people eaters as opposed to revue/attendance generating highlight rides, if the discussion is about time doing things (and maybe personal preference i have never felt like the queu of TT, building your car, was not much to do, then you have to consider queue time in the mix.

Well, with the advent of FastPass and now Lightning Lane/Genie+, the queues are hold fewer people in general, because a 60 minute wait if half of the capacity is going to Genie+ means the queue only contains half as many people for that 60 minute wait as it would if there was no Genie+.

This isn't a complaint about Genie+ and I don't want to go down that path -- just pointing out that it significantly changes the math around how many people are queueing. There are also the guests who only use ILLs and Genie+ and never queue for anything, so they spend most of their park time just milling about and increasing crowding while waiting for their next time.

Because the capacity was so high at those original EPCOT attractions, and they still generally had 30-45 minute waits (sometimes longer), they were taking far more people out of the park at any given time than what's currently offered at EPCOT due to the combination of shorter ride experiences and Lightning Lane/Genie+.

Even now, if Spaceship Earth has a legitimate 15-20 minute wait, it's occupying about as many guests as (possibly more than) Frozen Ever After does with like a 60-70 minute wait.

 

[celluloid]

Part of the issue in EPCOT was the rides removed people from the park for 12-15 minutes not counting the queue. So just on one side you had Energy (45 min); Horizons (12) and World of Motion(14) at opening - thats 71 minutes in the ride. Now it's Guardians (3) Space (5) TT (6) - for a total of 14 minutes. So more people in queues and walkways and the feeling that there's "not much to do".

And not just ate people. The capacity was baby to grandma. All of the replacements are not that situation and some people don't even care for thrills.

From Guardians to Test Track is child/rider swap central. Nothing to do except shop or find dull dying post show playgrounds if they are even known.(often not)

 

[JMcMahonEsq]

Well, with the advent of FastPass and now Lightning Lane/Genie+, the queues are hold fewer people in general, because a 60 minute wait if half of the capacity is going to Genie+ means the queue only contains half as many people for that 60 minute wait as it would if there was no Genie+.

This isn't a complaint about Genie+ and I don't want to go down that path -- just pointing out that it significantly changes the math around how many people are queueing. There are also the guests who only use ILLs and Genie+ and never queue for anything, so they spend most of their park time just milling about and increasing crowding while waiting for their next time.

Because the capacity was so high at those original EPCOT attractions, and they still generally had 30-45 minute waits (sometimes longer), they were taking far more people out of the park at any given time than what's currently offered at EPCOT due to the combination of shorter ride experiences and Lightning Lane/Genie+.

Even now, if Spaceship Earth has a legitimate 15-20 minute wait, it's occupying about as many guests as (possibly more than) Frozen Ever After does with like a 60-70 minute wait.

I think theres a point there. Maybe TT is a bad example, as I believe that the line queue, the walking through and building out your car, is there weather you use Genie+, used FP back in the day, or are just a walk on. Same thing for the pre-show parts of FoP. So even with Genie Plus, i think the interactive portions of the ride have to be considered, not just the the 6min your in the car driving around the Test Trac

 

[Rich Brownn]

They want those people eating and drinking and shopping

Which leads to the "there's not much to do here" complaint.

 

[Rich Brownn]

I am not sure how excluding the queue time is relevant to a discussion regarding times removing people from the park. If the idea is to somehow measure the amount of time each ride occupies a persons time outside of just wandering around the park, then the queue time has to be considered. I don't think TT has ever just taken up 6Min of my time at Epcott. And while i don't ride GotG, it has never been just 3 minutes that I have been waiting for my family to ride it.

And while I don't subscribe much to the discussions on capacity for capacity's sake, or just needing people eaters as opposed to revue/attendance generating highlight rides, if the discussion is about time doing things (and maybe personal preference i have never felt like the queu of TT, building your car, was not much to do, then you have to consider queue time in the mix.

Queue times vary. Ride times don't.

 

[gorillaball]

They also board more than 2 people at a time. And the raceway does more when all 4 tracks are operating.

Load 1 at a time or 100 at a time has no impact on capacity.

 

[Rich Brownn]

Load 1 at a time or 100 at a time has no impact on capacity.

Really? So a car with 1 person dispatching every 15 seconds has the same capacity as a car with 20 also dispatching at the same time..... interesting. Not to mention the line moves faster. :/