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News 'Beyond Big Thunder Mountain' Blue Sky concept revealed for Magic Kingdom

doctornick

Well-Known Member
I heard from someone in the know (same person who told me last July that Tron wasn't going to have guests on it till March) that Frontierland (and Country Bears) is not going away, but TSI will definitely be affected by the Beyond Big Thunder plans. CBJ might get hit by the inclusivity team, but the attraction itself and the Frontierland around it is NOT being replaced, from what I've heard.

The insiders here have suggested that if the "beyond thunder mountain" plans come to pass it will likely involve some shortening/re-routing of the RoA and maybe a loss of some of TSI (probably the northern edge) similar to what happened at DL.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
We don’t know yet if Disney has greenlit those Beyond Big Thunder plans yet. The recent layoffs are most likely to put those plans on hold for a while.
They won’t impact the $17 billion considering the layoffs were announced before the $17 billion. Employee payroll and capital expenditures are funded independently of one another. This is why my college can be threatening layoffs while building a new academic hall……….the students will love walking past new, locked classrooms, I’m sure.
 

CaptainAmerica

Well-Known Member
Employee payroll and capital expenditures are funded independently of one another.
Lots of labor is capitalized. Generally speaking, if you're working on a project that can be capitalized, your labor is capitalized as part of the cost of the project.

Disney is cutting 7,000 headcount; they never said how much of that is operating headcount versus capital headcount.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
Lots of labor is capitalized. Generally speaking, if you're working on a project that can be capitalized, your labor is capitalized as part of the cost of the project.

Disney is cutting 7,000 headcount; they never said how much of that is operating headcount versus capital headcount.
Are you suggesting they are lying about the $17 bn they announced or are you agreeing that they definitively will have staff on hand to actually complete those projects given that they were announced many months after the layoffs?
 

CaptainAmerica

Well-Known Member
Are you suggesting they are lying about the $17 bn they announced or are you agreeing that they definitively will have staff on hand to actually complete those projects given that they were announced many months after the layoffs?
The latter.

7,000 heads at $200,000 per head (I have no idea the real average, that's totally a guess) is only $1.4 billion, lots of which isn't Parks, and lots of which isn't Domestic. Whatever Parks' share of the 7,000 headcount reduction is, it's a tiny fraction of the $17 billion investment.

I was agreeing with your main point, just offering a slight correction of the accounting of the thing.
 

Disgruntled Walt

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
Here's a suggestion: put a variation of Beastly Kingdom in the Expansion Plot behind Big Thunder Mountain...sounds crazy, but not really. I'd rather they not update it with IP but if that's what it takes: Dragon Tower = Maleficent roller coaster, Fantasia boat ride stays the same (with Chernabog involved somehow), and retheme the hedge maze to something else.
 

BlakeW39

Well-Known Member
I'd rather have Beastly Kingdomme in Animal Kingdom, to be honest. There's still hope..🥹

And I know the thread kind of moved past this subject, but I agree with some folks here in that villains wouldn't be my preference for a 5th gate. I think a villains land sounds great, but an entire park..? Eh, it never really appealed to me that much.
 

yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
I'd rather have Beastly Kingdomme in Animal Kingdom, to be honest. There's still hope..🥹

And I know the thread kind of moved past this subject, but I agree with some folks here in that villains wouldn't be my preference for a 5th gate. I think a villains land sounds great, but an entire park..? Eh, it never really appealed to me that much.
The thing with Disney Villains is that they don't really have enough in common to support a unified "theme" park. A few are alike enough in sensibility that it's fun to see them palling around, but that's not really enough to support a whole park.

People always talk about "Dark Kingdom", but what really would that be? Disney Villains tend to hail from totally different locales, with only a few that are similar enough aesthetically to shove together in a way that doesn't feel completely random. Those are mostly the older ones - Maleficent, Chernabog, The Wicked Queen, Captain Hook, and maybe The Horned King (not that I expect them to acknowledge him at all) could have a cohesive little Villainy Village formed out of their lairs and locations. A hive of skullduggery among rocky outcroppings with crumbling towers and creepy cottages, and other Villains could make appearances within that. But if you tried to bear that out across a whole park you quickly run out of places that both make sense to have in proximity and that guests are really dying to visit.

Other parks shove together disparate locations, but they do it under an overarching theme that's greater than "Imagine if these guys were all neighbors". The lands in MK are culturally aspirational in a way that, like, Cruella's House or Hans' Southern Isles just aren't. The list of strong, popular, and merchandisable Villains with great themed attraction potential really isn't all that long . . . not long enough to support a whole park.

Add to it that Disney hasn't really invested in creating a really good, really bad Villain character in almost 15 years, and it suggests a whole park is not something they could commit to no matter how fun it is to imagine. And it is fun. But a land makes more sense.

Not to mention that it'd be a total odd man out among the given themes for the existing four parks at Walt Disney World - A Magical Kingdom, a Magical Movie Studio, the Natural Realm, Whatever they think EPCOT is anymore, and . . . Mean People?
 

pdude81

Well-Known Member
The thing with Disney Villains is that they don't really have enough in common to support a unified "theme" park. A few are alike enough in sensibility that it's fun to see them palling around, but that's not really enough to support a whole park.

People always talk about "Dark Kingdom", but what really would that be? Disney Villains tend to hail from totally different locales, with only a few that are similar enough aesthetically to shove together in a way that doesn't feel completely random. Those are mostly the older ones - Maleficent, Chernabog, The Wicked Queen, Captain Hook, and maybe The Horned King (not that I expect them to acknowledge him at all) could have a cohesive little Villainy Village formed out of their lairs and locations. A hive of skullduggery among rocky outcroppings with crumbling towers and creepy cottages, and other Villains could make appearances within that. But if you tried to bear that out across a whole park you quickly run out of places that both make sense to have in proximity and that guests are really dying to visit.

Other parks shove together disparate locations, but they do it under an overarching theme that's greater than "Imagine if these guys were all neighbors". The lands in MK are culturally aspirational in a way that, like, Cruella's House or Hans' Southern Isles just aren't. The list of strong, popular, and merchandisable Villains with great themed attraction potential really isn't all that long . . . not long enough to support a whole park.

Add to it that Disney hasn't really invested in creating a really good, really bad Villain character in almost 15 years, and it suggests a whole park is not something they could commit to no matter how fun it is to imagine. And it is fun. But a land makes more sense.

Not to mention that it'd be a total odd man out among the given themes for the existing four parks at Walt Disney World - A Magical Kingdom, a Magical Movie Studio, the Natural Realm, Whatever they think EPCOT is anymore, and . . . Mean People?
I don't see why different villain lands would need to tightly mesh. What does Tomorrowland have in common with Frontierland? And if the villains aren't related enough for their own disparate lands, why would it make more sense to basically put them in dorm?

I would love them to build a darker (but still family friendly) gate like that, with a forbidden mountain castle that doubled as an attraction. If they were really going to consider adding villains to MK that could have been an awesome retheme of Splash.
 

bmr1591

Well-Known Member
Remove Fantasyland, paint the back side of Cinderella’s castle black and scary, and let transform that area to Villains Land.
 

James Alucobond

Well-Known Member
Add to it that Disney hasn't really invested in creating a really good, really bad Villain character in almost 15 years, and it suggests a whole park is not something they could commit to no matter how fun it is to imagine. And it is fun. But a land makes more sense.
To that end, one wonders if they would even go the direction people want if they did build a full villains park. Like, would it actually celebrate the wholly evil villains of old, or would it be Descendants-level stuff? I suspect the latter given their core demographic. There's a reason the Halloween party is billed as not-so-scary.
 

pdude81

Well-Known Member
To that end, one wonders if they would even go the direction people want if they did build a full villains park. Like, would it actually celebrate the wholly evil villains of old, or would it be Descendants-level stuff? I suspect the latter given their core demographic. There's a reason the Halloween party is billed as not-so-scary.
I think it could have a few evil villain attractions that are really suspenseful, including shows, but on the whole the park would have to be more fun and family friendly. Otherwise you end up with a highly rated park that nobody goes to.
 

SteveAZee

Premium Member
I could see a villains land or park's backstory being that all the Disney villains banded together to build and run their own land/park since it's only the heroes/princes/princesses getting celebrated and they have their own stories to tell.

Some rides would play with the familiar ride twist of 'suddenly, something goes wrong' and instead it's 'suddenly, something goes right'.
 

James Alucobond

Well-Known Member
I think there are ways to force it to work. I just question the appeal at scale and its place in the context of a traditionally child-friendly brand. One land? Fine. A half dozen evil lands with no palate cleanser? Doesn’t seem all that compelling to me, and there’s a reason why other parks (even those that want to be more serious or mature for teen/young adult appeal) don’t do this.
 

Disgruntled Walt

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
I think there are ways to force it to work. I just question the appeal at scale and its place in the context of a traditionally child-friendly brand. One land? Fine. A half dozen evil lands with no palate cleanser? Doesn’t seem all that compelling to me, and there’s a reason why other parks (even those that want to be more serious or mature for teen/young adult appeal) don’t do this.
Wasn't a "land" the only thing actually mentioned as a possibility? Where did the idea of a park come from? There are several issues with a full park devoted to villains that people have pointed out on here. I honestly think a "Dark Fantasyland" is much more realistic. This could include a roller coaster or perhaps a ride using whatever system is being used for the new Peter Pan E-Ticket in Tokyo. Plus a C-ticket. That's what I could see them doing for real.
 

Fox&Hound

Well-Known Member
The thing with Disney Villains is that they don't really have enough in common to support a unified "theme" park. A few are alike enough in sensibility that it's fun to see them palling around, but that's not really enough to support a whole park.

People always talk about "Dark Kingdom", but what really would that be? Disney Villains tend to hail from totally different locales, with only a few that are similar enough aesthetically to shove together in a way that doesn't feel completely random. Those are mostly the older ones - Maleficent, Chernabog, The Wicked Queen, Captain Hook, and maybe The Horned King (not that I expect them to acknowledge him at all) could have a cohesive little Villainy Village formed out of their lairs and locations. A hive of skullduggery among rocky outcroppings with crumbling towers and creepy cottages, and other Villains could make appearances within that. But if you tried to bear that out across a whole park you quickly run out of places that both make sense to have in proximity and that guests are really dying to visit.

Other parks shove together disparate locations, but they do it under an overarching theme that's greater than "Imagine if these guys were all neighbors". The lands in MK are culturally aspirational in a way that, like, Cruella's House or Hans' Southern Isles just aren't. The list of strong, popular, and merchandisable Villains with great themed attraction potential really isn't all that long . . . not long enough to support a whole park.

Add to it that Disney hasn't really invested in creating a really good, really bad Villain character in almost 15 years, and it suggests a whole park is not something they could commit to no matter how fun it is to imagine. And it is fun. But a land makes more sense.

Not to mention that it'd be a total odd man out among the given themes for the existing four parks at Walt Disney World - A Magical Kingdom, a Magical Movie Studio, the Natural Realm, Whatever they think EPCOT is anymore, and . . . Mean People?
You make a lot of great points here, and I fully agree. The goals/aims of the villains are also very different. Many have very specific visions that would have nothing to do with each other: to win Belle's love, to defeat Peter Pan, to make a fur coat, seeking revenge on not getting invited to a birthday party, to stay young forever. Or they want power/riches (Prince John, Lady Tremaine, Ursula, Scar, Hades, Jafar, Dr. Facilier, Hans, etc)- hmmmm maybe there is something to that. But then wouldn't they be in competition with one another? If you want to be supreme ruler then wouldn't anyone who wants the same thing be seen as an enemy? Haha, I know I am looking too far into this but that becomes the problem- as cool as it would be, and it is cool, when you peal back the layers it does not truly work. Unless they just go cartoony "let's destroy Mickey Mouse" but even that gets old after a while. The characters become caricatures and what made them special starts to fade. You get a "House of Mouse" villains episode which is surface-level satisfaction. The only way I see it working is if the lands are separate and the villains do not interact with one another. But, is that what people want???
 

pdude81

Well-Known Member
You make a lot of great points here, and I fully agree. The goals/aims of the villains are also very different. Many have very specific visions that would have nothing to do with each other: to win Belle's love, to defeat Peter Pan, to make a fur coat, seeking revenge on not getting invited to a birthday party, to stay young forever. Or they want power/riches (Prince John, Lady Tremaine, Ursula, Scar, Hades, Jafar, Dr. Facilier, Hans, etc)- hmmmm maybe there is something to that. But then wouldn't they be in competition with one another? If you want to be supreme ruler then wouldn't anyone who wants the same thing be seen as an enemy? Haha, I know I am looking too far into this but that becomes the problem- as cool as it would be, and it is cool, when you peal back the layers it does not truly work. Unless they just go cartoony "let's destroy Mickey Mouse" but even that gets old after a while. The characters become caricatures and what made them special starts to fade. You get a "House of Mouse" villains episode which is surface-level satisfaction. The only way I see it working is if the lands are separate and the villains do not interact with one another. But, is that what people want???
There is precedent for this, and it's the Hocus Pocus show at MNSSHP. Maleficent is the ruler, and everybody else has their own side hustle. So she gets the castle, but there can be other territories/lands that have their own flare.
 

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