Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[MisterPenguin]

Covid may have been the straw that broke the camels back but didn’t kill Colin Powell, cancer and age did.

It was unfair a year ago when Covid was listed as the reason for death for every person that tested positive (whether it was the primary cause of death or not) and it’s just as unfair that an 84 year old with cancer will now be counted as a breakthrough death and used by anti-vaxxers as “proof” that the vaccines “don’t work”.

We really should report Covid as primary cause or contributing factor.

The number of excess deaths above the normal yearly number of deaths far exceeds the number of deaths attributed to COVID. This means COVID-caused deaths are significantly underreported. And it's the same in most countries.

We don't have to worry that it's being inflated by a misattributed cause-of-death. There's plenty more deaths to go around.

Newsroom | Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation

Find all the latest news, blogs, and research from IHME.

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Estimating under-recognized COVID-19 deaths, United States, march 2020-may 2021 using an excess mortality modelling approach

Estimating COVID-19–attributable unrecognized deaths provides a better understanding of the COVID-19 mortality burden and may better quantify the severity of the COVID-19 pandemic.

www.thelancet.com

Excess deaths reveal the true spatial, temporal and demographic impact of COVID-19 on mortality in Ecuador

AcceptedBackground. In early 2020, Ecuador reported one of the highest surges of per capita deaths across the globe.Methods. We collected a comprehensive d

academic.oup.com

 

[Lilofan]

It'd be nice if the news put that out as well as his age - first and foremost instead of - "Died from complications due to covid."

Don't assume it is the media. The statement came from his beloved family.

 

[peter11435]

It'd be nice if the news put that out as well as his age - first and foremost instead of - "Died from complications due to covid."

Why? He died as a result of COVID-19. Sure he may be still alive if not for his pre-existing condition, but he would still be alive if not for COVID-19..

 

[MisterPenguin]

Yes, but the rest of the information is vitally important.
If a person is/was not up on the man's current condition and age, the initial thought reflex is "Wow!" "General Powell died from covid!"
Because the mind goes to that robust man who was Chairman of the Joint Chief's of Staff, Secretary of State, and ran for President.
But that was over 20 years ago.
The unfortunate thing was that the man was now 84 years old, had multiple myeloma, Parkinson's, and I just read - prostrate cancer.
Those things should not be left out, or buried in the story, because doing so implies that all risk is the same.

Nobody's denying confounding factors of comorbidities. From the start of the pandemic, we were focused on comorbidities as indicators of greater risks of damage and death.

The deniers' false claim is that it's precisely the comorbidities that are the real cause of death, and therefore, we shouldn't count it as a real COVID-caused death.

 

[DisneyDebRob]

He died directly as a result of COVID, though. He was more vulnerable than the average person, but his underlying conditions didn't directly kill him. The consequences of infection from SARS-Cov-2 did.

Why is this so hard for people to grasp? This is exactly right.

 

[Bullseye1967]

That would be a key detail that I'm sure will get lost in the fray.

EDIT: Looks like he had multiple myeloma (sort of cancer, but not exactly). Vaccinated or not, I would be surprised if anyone who has an advanced case of this unfortunate condition could survive the COVID-19 pandemic. Most people with the disease will eventually succumb to an infection of some sorts or another.

For all we know, he may have been stable with multiple myeloma and at home doing what any 84 year old does before he caught COVID-19. People don't die directly of multiple myeloma, they die due to the consequences of the immune dysfunction or kidney failure that it causes.

Multiple myeloma certainly made Colin Powell more susceptible to COVID-19. Not that he would have likely enjoyed that much longer of a life anyway with that diagnosis, but his case once again demonstrates the importance of herd immunity to protect the vulnerable. And we won't get there unless plenty more people get vaccinated.

EDIT: It was just a few days ago that we had to explain that people don't die directly of the HIV infection that causes AIDS, they die from another infection that their compromised immune system couldn't fend off.

My 88 year old father has multiple myeloma and is in stage 3 renal failure. He only has one kidney. He is very stable and only has chemotherapy once a month down from once a week. We don't worry about multiple myeloma killing him but we are very careful. Old age or renal failure will get him first or something like Covid-19.

 

[Andrew C]

we shouldn't count it as a real COVID-caused death.

I have no issue with counting it as a COVID death. Makes sense to me.

But the way I think about it, if he didn't have these health related issues over the years (becoming severe recently), would his COVID have become severe and killed him? As he was a vaccinated individual, I would say not likely, even for his age. Which is why we should stress for the future, take your vaccines AND try to lead a healthy life (Not saying his health issues were due to an unhealthy lifestyle. Just that we should do a better job as population of doing so to help prevent severe illnesses). We make ourselves too vulnerable and cannot always depend on a medicine saving us.

 

[Tom P.]

Why is this so hard for people to grasp? This is exactly right.

I'm going to jump back into this thread for the first time in many, many months to address this.

I am unhappy with the reporting surrounding Colin Powell and I think more context should be provided. But I think it's for the opposite reason that everyone seems to be thinking here.

It's not that I think we shouldn't be counting his death as a Covid death or that we're overblowing case numbers or anything like that. It's because I think reporting a well-known fully vaccinated person died, without providing the context as to why they likely died, is only going to further drive vaccine hesitancy. The mantra is going to be, "See, he died even though he did all the right things! The vaccine is worthless!" when, in fact, we know that it was his underlying conditions that made him vulnerable and that most vaccinated people will not die from Covid.

That's why I want to see them report this differently.

 

[Incomudro]

Don't assume it is the media. The statement came from his beloved family.

But it's spread by the media, and a responsible media would provide full information.
The rest of the information is important to a public who has been frightened, confused, and manipulated for the past year and a half.

 

[Incomudro]

I'm going to jump back into this thread for the first time in many, many months to address this.

I am unhappy with the reporting surrounding Colin Powell and I think more context should be provided. But I think it's for the opposite reason that everyone seems to be thinking here.

It's not that I think we shouldn't be counting his death as a Covid death or that we're overblowing case numbers or anything like that. It's because I think reporting a well-known fully vaccinated person died, without providing the context as to why they likely died, is only going to further drive vaccine hesitancy. The mantra is going to be, "See, he died even though he did all the right things! The vaccine is worthless!" when, in fact, we know that it was his underlying conditions that made him vulnerable and that most vaccinated people will not die from Covid.

That's why I want to see them report this differently.

Precisely.
Full information is important, because full and accurate information cuts across everything.

 

[Incomudro]

Nobody's denying confounding factors of comorbidities. From the start of the pandemic, we were focused on comorbidities as indicators of greater risks of damage and death.

The deniers' false claim is that it's precisely the comorbidities that are the real cause of death, and therefore, we shouldn't count it as a real COVID-caused death.

Are you saying that I'm a denier, making a false claim?
That's absolutely not what I am doing.
When you assess the risk of any illness, you have to what that illness means to you and various populations at large.
Generally, a young thin, fit person doesn't have to worry at their age and condition that a heart attack might kill them the same way and older, heavier person would.
Any decent Dr., any decent outlet dispensing medical information would tell them so.
Similarly, an 85 year old man (already beyond the average US male life expectancy) with a number of health issue is at a much greater risk of a covid death than a health 35 year old.
The distinction is important.

 

[Incomudro]

Why? He died as a result of COVID-19. Sure he may be still alive if not for his pre-existing condition, but he would still be alive if not for COVID-19..

Because the rest of the information matters.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

I don't know how my response led to this post. I was advocating for everybody to get vaccinated just not to be forced to. As of Friday, Miami-Dade county was still the 11th worst out of 67 FL counties in cases per 100k for the week but the best with regards to vaccination at 93% eligible (80% of population) with at least one shot. That county is pretty much as close to "everyone" getting vaccinated as anywhere is going to get and spread is still nowhere near zero.

If you maintain your license you are. Ken Jeong is still a doctor. If you could sill see a patient today then you are definitely still a doctor.

Apparently you misread my post because I didn't say anything about COVID not being that bad. I said that the doomsday scenarios people were envisioning where every person on earth eventually gets it and then x% die would never have happened due to our immune systems and other defenses.

Broward County does at least as much voluntary mitigation as Miami-Dade, is right next door, has a lower vaccination rate and lower spread currently.

It’s almost as if you completely ignore population density.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Front webpage of the NYTimes...

 

[peter11435]

Because the rest of the information matters.

Yes, It matters. And the information is out there and reported. Every article I’ve read about his death mentions his cancer and age. But it doesn’t change that he died from Covid. If not for Covid he would still be alive.

A gun shot victim with a pre existing heart condition is less likely to survive than one without. But we would still say the gun shot killed them. Sure they may have survived the injury if not for the heart condition, and sure the heart condition may have killed them eventually. But they still died because of a gun shot.

 

[mmascari]

It's almost like people will use the death to justify whatever they already want.

Some will use it to say:

• COVID isn't that bad, he was sick anyway.
• Vaccines don't work, he died anyway.
• Even the vaccinated should take precautions, he died anyway! (Said with hysteria and yelling.)
• Even the vaccinated should take precautions dependent on both their personal risks and the local environment.
• We need more people vaccinated. If enough were, he wouldn't have been exposed.

There's probably a few more too. Can't we all just come together for a minute and morn his death a little. Then, we can all use it to justify wildly different talking points.

That may have been to dark for the day. Made large instead of small. You know why.

 

[Lilofan]

It's almost like people will use the death to justify whatever they already want.

Some will use it to say:

• COVID isn't that bad, he was sick anyway.
• Vaccines don't work, he died anyway.
• Even the vaccinated should take precautions, he died anyway! (Said with hysteria and yelling.)
• Even the vaccinated should take precautions dependent on both their personal risks and the local environment.
• We need more people vaccinated. If enough were, he wouldn't have been exposed.

There's probably a few more too. Can't we all just come together for a minute and morn his death a little. Then, we can all use it to justify wildly different talking points.

That may have been to dark for the day. Made large instead of small. You know why.

I mourn the loss of a military man and civil servant. If something that could come out of this may the unvaccinated who are eligible to get the shot make it happen and get vaccinated. This may give our older population who are immune compromised and are vaccinated a better chance.

 

[correcaminos]

So since I've been 100% transparent about the trial stuff from day one, I was officially unblinded today. I did get the real deal as I highly suspected. Again I absolutely do benefit from not knowing for sure and don't ever deal with extra stress worrying about symptoms I think. It was simply arm pain. No aches, fevers, tiredness etc outside of my usual physical issues I have (chronic pain). Same as the first really.

So if you worry, remember a very small percentage shows more symptoms than 2nd. Most are same or less (like 90% almost) as previously. If you don't need another shot - good! Obviously cannot speak for things like J&J.

We had our big show this past weekend. Lots of unmasked. I'll be equally as honest about an outbreak or none if it happens or not. About 2/3 of the cast were ineligible for vaccines at this time. I was masked the whole time but didn't really feel the need to.

 

[ABQ]

So since I've been 100% transparent about the trial stuff from day one, I was officially unblinded today. I did get the real deal as I highly suspected. Again I absolutely do benefit from not knowing for sure and don't ever deal with extra stress worrying about symptoms I think. It was simply arm pain. No aches, fevers, tiredness etc outside of my usual physical issues I have (chronic pain). Same as the first really.

So if you worry, remember a very small percentage shows more symptoms than 2nd. Most are same or less (like 90% almost) as previously. If you don't need another shot - good! Obviously cannot speak for things like J&J.

We had our big show this past weekend. Lots of unmasked. I'll be equally as honest about an outbreak or none if it happens or not. About 2/3 of the cast were ineligible for vaccines at this time. I was masked the whole time but didn't really feel the need to.

Have they done either spike protein or nucleic acid tests on you? If so, have they said how things are holding up with regards to presence of either?

 

[JoeCamel]

For all we know, he may have been stable with multiple myeloma and at home doing what any 84 year old does before he caught COVID-19. People don't die directly of multiple myeloma, they die due to the consequences of the immune dysfunction or kidney failure that it causes.

Multiple myeloma certainly made Colin Powell more susceptible to COVID-19. Not that he would have likely enjoyed that much longer of a life anyway with that diagnosis, but his case once again demonstrates the importance of herd immunity to protect the vulnerable. And we won't get there unless plenty more people get vaccinated.

EDIT: It was just a few days ago that we had to explain that people don't die directly of the HIV infection that causes AIDS, they die from another infection that their compromised immune system couldn't fend off.

He died directly as a result of COVID, though. He was more vulnerable than the average person, but his underlying conditions didn't directly kill him. The consequences of infection from SARS-Cov-2 did.

Oooh, Oooh, do Alzheimer's now.....