News Zootopia and Moana Blue Sky concepts for Disney's Animal Kingdom

drnilescrane

Well-Known Member
How does DLR manage to keep all their rides then?
DLR has closed and replaced attractions that rate poorly - close to $1bn in 2012 was spent doing so! There's a reason you can't go on Muppetvision or into Innoventions anymore.

Poorly rated lands like Paradise Pier, Toontown and Condor Flats have gotten makeovers for that reason. It's just a much more refined and focused portfolio of attractions.

Hollywood Pictures Backlot is in limbo because of larger issues with the City of Anaheim and future land use considerations.
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
Yeah, the point here is a cheap (relatively, this is WDI we're talking about) and quick (again, relatively) fix for a ride that has low GSats.

I think the point that Bob and Josh made this weekend - and reemphasized today at the Goldman conference - the data drives everything now. Everything. Everything.

On paper, if a ride has low satisfaction (even if the wait times are high) and low G+ utilization, it's losing money. (Hollywood math, but each attraction has a P&L.)

Enterprises at WDW that lose money (Artist Point, GMR, etc) get fixed. Or closed.
I’m willing to bet one way to help Guest Satisfaction scores across the board is to actually increase the total number of rides in a park, reduce waits for everything, and give people more things to do. Why don’t they get DAK to a dozen rides before they spend tons of money start replacing things?
 

drnilescrane

Well-Known Member
I’m willing to bet one way to help Guest Satisfaction scores across the board is to actually increase the total number of rides in a park, reduce waits for everything, and give people more things to do. Why don’t they get DAK to a dozen rides before they spend tons of money start replacing things?
Because they did do that and instead it made the dinosaur problem more acute? A big, fancy, popular land like Pandora suddenly makes Dinosaur look kinda lame in comparison. So does a land dying around it and an increasingly unpopular QSR. It's all a wholistic thing where these problems come together and suddenly you are looking at a major land do-over.

Part of me thinks that if they could make Moana work with the EMV system they would have done that. But right now Zootopia is the most logical choice. A lack of clarity at D23 simply is a lack of clarity internally as to what they are going to do as a whole (Is it the ride by itself? Is it the ride and the QSR?) and don't want to box themselves in.

Also, if you have a specific goal you can start doing things like starving it for maintenance to get the scores you want to justify the business case you want when you present it to Josh. *Cough* NBA Experience *Cough*

(And don't get me wrong, Dinosaur is my favorite ride in DAK and seeing it go is watching another part of the Quirky Eisner era WDW I love die. Ignore Nick Wilde).
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
DLR has closed and replaced attractions that rate poorly - close to $1bn in 2012 was spent doing so! There's a reason you can't go on Muppetvision or into Innoventions anymore.


That’s massively different than closing down and replacing rides though. A show like Muppetvision (or ITTBAB) could get replaced because it isn’t scoring well but that happens at WDW as well.

My point is why doesn’t DLR shut down and replace the “least popular” rides under the idea that they are expensive to run. WDW has closed/replaced GMR, Energy, Maelstrom, Stitch, Primeval Whirl, Backlot Tour, SWSA in recent years. And is now talking about Dinosaur it seems. Why not add capacity?
 

drnilescrane

Well-Known Member
That’s massively different than closing down and replacing rides though. A show like Muppetvision (or ITTBAB) could get replaced because it isn’t scoring well but that happens at WDW as well.

My point is why doesn’t DLR shut down and replace the “least popular” rides under the idea that they are expensive to run. WDW has closed/replaced GMR, Energy, Maelstrom, Stitch, Primeval Whirl, Backlot Tour, SWSA in recent years. And is now talking about Dinosaur it seems. Why not add capacity?
It's not the least popular ride. It's the least popular ride that's also loosing money. If every ride at DLR is scoring 80%+ and breaking even and not depressing attendance to surrounding shops and stores then there is no need to close them. And that did happen en-masse with DCA 1.0.

It's not spending money for the sake of spending money.
 
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celluloid

Well-Known Member
I don't see a problem with someone stating they don't like viewing animals in captivity.

There is nothing wrong with not liking it but lies and fallacies are not going to be without critique.

I don't like seeing children in hospital beds at St Jude, but I know the good the place does for dealing with terrible situations.

The issue was with the claims on why and were not accurate to reality.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
There is nothing wrong with not liking it but lies and fallacies are not going to be without critique.

I don't like seeing children in hospital beds at St Jude, but I know the good they are doing with terrible situations.

The issue was with the claims on why and were not accurate to reality.
What lies and fallacies? I stated that I do not enjoy seeing animals in captivity, which is a matter of personal preference. When asked by you to elaborate, I noted that I don't like zoos because most of the animals they keep are not threatened but rather bred for the purposes of captivity, which is a verifiable fact.

You are calling me a liar without any basis.
 

networkpro

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
Walt’s ghost makes it so.

Thats a big factor, but for how much longer I dont know. If the influence-peddling investigation goes deep in Anaheim, that along with the hot mess thats population pressure/traffic/smog/urban decay/power/wildfires/energy/California it might become an insurmountable issue. They've already replaced the grass in from of the train station with plastic, when do they drain the rides in the name of conservation?
 

ᗩLᘿᑕ ✨ ᗩζᗩᗰ

HOUSE OF MAGIC
Premium Member
The hangup for me is thematic incongruity. IPs can be made to fit but how they relate to one another or as part of a larger identity is where the bluesky falls apart. Maybe we're not supposed to take these land development/redevelopment ideas at face value? The equation of IP + IP = new land doesn't really work. Are we looking at it wrong?

Take the Beyond Big Thunder concept. It doesn't make a lick of sense unless Disney can somehow tie-in the IPs to adjacent lands. As it's own new land there's nothing holding these IPs together. Each attraction would just exist, plopped down for the sake of adding new attractions. That's amusment park level thinking. This is Disney! A theme park company. Try harder. What overarching theme can be derived from a land containing Moana + Zootopia?!?

Looking at the plot however, a case could be made for Moana. It's been mentioned before and by others that the Moana IP could be annex'd with Nemo Theater and some other IP/S.E.A. attraction to make a new Oceanic land. I kind of like that idea. It's not great but it puts the property with similar themes.

But then what to do with Zootopia? It's an outlier. Perhaps it could be it's own mini land? How would the two IPs pitched in the blusky bounce off each other? Transitional areas, etc. It's kind of a mess once you start to pick at it.
 
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celluloid

Well-Known Member
ETA: I never used the word "confined" to describe the animals' captivity.

You don't have to, the word Captivity has confined in the definition. That is why it is not a great word to use in this situation. For bad situations sure, there are places that do that. None of the AZA ones are. Those are accredited and must prove that the animals have above and beyond the resources needed, including space. It is disingenuous to still use that term and even those places have struggled getting away from using the word, but that is just a side fact.
What lies and fallacies? I stated that I do not enjoy seeing animals in captivity, which is a matter of personal preference. When asked by you to elaborate, I noted that I don't like zoos because most of the animals they keep are not threatened but rather bred for the purposes of captivity, which is a verifiable fact.

You are calling me a liar without any basis.
This is the logical fallacy of circular reasoning. It is like saying "They do this because they do this." It is what they do with the animals in captivity that matter. There is countless evidence that has even been quoted here that AZA facilities must prove that they are educating and giving back to conservation of species. The endangered factor is kind of a misnomer in many cases because the Manatee was at most danger when it was taken off the endangered species list. Many zoologists hate when that happens for similar reasons as then they have to re-educate and explain how threatened and endangered works. People tend to not care as much when they hear that an animal is no longer endangered.

You also misquoted yourself and originally said they bred for purposes of entertainment. Now you are saying captivity. Two different situations there. Also entertained by animals does not mean make it inherently wrong. People like animals, they are fascinating. To counter that Many Zoos and Aquariums half more animals not seen by the paying public than on stage, so it is not really for entertainment at that point. This is a verifiable fact which makes your statements very generally dangerous.

Of course, one is welcome to feel a way, but without the full picture untruths are told.
 
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LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
You don't have to, the word Captivity has confined in the definition. That is why it is not a great word to use in this situation. For bad situations sure, there are places that do that. None of the AZA ones are. Those are accredited and must prove that the animals have above and beyond the resources needed, including space. It is disingenuous to still use that term and even those places have struggled getting away from using the word, but that is just a side fact.

This is the logical fallacy of circular reasoning. It is like saying "They do this because they do this." It is what they do with the animals in captivity that matter. There is countless evidence that has even been quoted here that AZA facilities must prove that they are educating and giving back to conservation of species. The endangered factor is kind of a misnomer in many cases because the Manatee was at most danger when it was taken off the endangered species list. Many zoologists hate when that happens for similar reasons as then they have to re-educate and explain how threatened and endangered works. People tend to not care as much when they hear that an animal is no longer endangered.

You also misquoted yourself and originally said they bred for purposes of entertainment. Now you are saying captivity. Two different situations there. Also entertained by animals does not mean make it inherently wrong. People like animals, they are fascinating. To counter that Many Zoos and Aquariums half more animals not seen by the paying public than on stage, so it is not really for entertainment at that point. This is a verifiable fact which makes your statements very generally dangerous.

Of course, one is welcome to feel a way, but without the full picture untruths are told.
“Captivity” is a word used by the AZA itself, because it is factually and descriptively true:


A major (and originally the only) reason animals are held in captivity at zoos is for the entertainment of humans. If that weren’t so, Animal Kingdom would never have been created. That doesn’t mean that other, nobler, motives (education, conservation, etc.) aren’t also at play, but I stand by my earlier statements. I have shared my views in good faith and without militancy, while you’ve seen fit to call me a liar and brand my opinions “very generally dangerous”, whatever that means.

Feel free to have the last word, because I’m moving on from this discussion.
 

celluloid

Well-Known Member
A major (and originally the only) reason animals are held in captivity at zoos is for the entertainment

Amusements were typically and originally places to nickel and dime people without delivering an honest product or service. Things change sir.
Science has shown no one learns much without being entertained. Sorry that you are bothered by seeing Animals in Captivity based on other places being bad at it.
 

TheGenXer

Member
There is nothing wrong with not liking it but lies and fallacies are not going to be without critique.

I don't like seeing children in hospital beds at St Jude, but I know the good the place does for dealing with terrible situations.

The issue was with the claims on why and were not accurate to reality.
False equivalency. The purpose of St. Jude’s is not for you to view children in their beds.
 

culturenthrills

Well-Known Member
Great questions. Quite frankly I will die of shock if any of them get built. But to assume they will be tied to Frontier land is faulty. Just because they are behind BTMRR.

Plus if it does slide over behind HM there could be a clean link to Fantasy land.

But to immediately assume its Frontier land to me is faulty.
Moana and Zootopia are very close to being greenlit. We will know soon because Moana will be built first and Chester and Hesters will be going bye-bye with Zootopia coming after Moana. I guess they figured that Pandora did not solve all their problems with DAK. They really want to be able to keep the park open until 9-10pm at night. I hope they both get built and we get a new nighttime show in the amphitheater.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
Moana and Zootopia are very close to being greenlit. We will know soon because Moana will be built first and Chester and Hesters will be going bye-bye with Zootopia coming after Moana. I guess they figured that Pandora did not solve all their problems with DAK. They really want to be able to keep the park open until 9-10pm at night. I hope they both get built and we get a new nighttime show in the amphitheater.
Yeah. People seem to be in denial over this Dinoland remodel. It’s literally the next big project for WDW. This should come as no surprise around these parts.

It’s the MK project that needs to bake longer. But even that is a company priority. They know they are turning away money at MK.
 

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